SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

1. (knowing who the AP was), I think a faceless and unknown AP would be torture. If I saw my WW chatting with some guy I would immediately suspect that he's the AP. Knowing who the AP was allows me to keep track of my WW in relation to where he is likely to be. If I couldn't do that I would be stuck in a state of constant paranoia.

2. (RA's) If we BS's claim that nothing we did forced or made our WS cheat, then how can we claim the action of our WS (the affair) is justification for us to cheat?

tj on #2: My WW had a long term affair that included romance, trips together, even living together for a while (unknown to me or his BW). After DD my WW offered what's called these days a hall-pass, basically giving me permission to have a ONS. How does a ONS even come close to something equivalent to a LTA?

IMO the marriage will always be out of balance after an affair, and there's absolutely no way it can be evened out. All the BS can do is accept that this is the way things are, this is our marriage, and this is our life - and get on with it, OR we can choose to D and move on.

But nightmare, the experiences of a number of people here is that there are paths other than a simple binary choice between (a) the BS accepting everything and essentially just sucking it up, and (b) divorce.

But I agree that there will always be SOME imbalance given the duration of W's A's, the number of AP's, etc. I'm far less consumed by that "imbalance" after the whole MH thing.

After breaking a plate, breaking it again doesn't make it whole. Even if you glue the pieces back together, it's still a broken plate, or at least never in the state it originally was.

My WW got to have the fun / excitement etc. of romancing someone new and having sex with another person. I have not had those experiences (since we were married).

I see no way that balance can be restored. The only path for me was to accept that it happened, and that there is nothing I can do now that will change what happened then.

The concept of the hall pass was always interesting to me. You are correct nigtmare, in that being offered a single ONS in no way compares to all the intricacies and Emotions of an LTA.

But what’s more important is when a WS seems they think they are giving the BS permission to do so, as of the BS doesn't Have their own free choice. We all have choices. The WS has a choice not to cheat, and they can only accept the outcome of their choice, not control it. Just as how a BS can choose to stay, R, become an MH, or D. Those are the BS choices and the WS really has no say.

And even better is when WS decide that AFTER they have an affair is the time to create boundaries, including towards the BS. So ostensibly, a BS is punished and humiliated by their WS going out of their way to make an AP happy in ways the BS never got while being faithful, and after DDay, the WS thinks they should deny their BS what they want in the name of boundaries....good luck with that, it won’t help R. Boundaries ARE important, but if you want to R, we must learn what we should have known all along, that the rest of the worlds boundaries are and should be different than the boundaries with BS.

Don’t go spending thousands of dollars on your AP on trips to France, then expecting your BS to understand that being wise with money is important, so going camping is your new boundary with them...it doesn’t work like that.

[This message edited by nicenomore at 12:25 PM, January 22nd (Monday)]

After breaking a plate, breaking it again doesn't make it whole. Even if you glue the pieces back together, it's still a broken plate, or at least never in the state it originally was.

But its just as broken if you break it again. And just as broken if you glue it together..

"But what’s more important is when a WS seems they think they are giving the BS permission to do so, as of the BS doesn't Have their own free choice."

I think it is essentially saying that go ahead and do it and i'll be ok with it.

"My WW got to have the fun / excitement etc. of romancing someone new and having sex with another person. I have not had those experiences (since we were married)."

among many things, this is one of my beefs about ppl thinking a RA is the way to go. they think that an affair is all great and wonderful and sexy. to me, it's anything but. it's like your BS demanding to taste the poison you just consumed.

I always thought an M was alive until death, annulment, or D ended it.

I'm OK with thinking an M is metaphorically dead after an A, but a metaphor is by definition false.

Just sayin'....

If two businesses have a contract between them, and one business breaks that contract - is the contract then void?

The problem is I fail to see how an upfront RA really is infidelity from Anything beyond a legal sense... the vows are broken, so what do we really owe the WS that dished a heap of shit on us? I would imagine tasting the poison applies about selling your soul and morals by lying and being deceitful. But if your a BS after day, and you no longer respect your partner, are TRANSPARENT about your feelings, and are interested in meeting others, where is the shame? I’d feel guilty about LYING, that’s a moral no no, but I don’t feel that fidelity is a one way street, and it is a contract that is voided by one party. I guess some people see it as effectively making you single, and some people see it as the BS responsibility to uphold the vows regardless. there are Motivations for supporting either side, but if you don’t plan to R, what’s the harm in enjoying casual sex with new people as if your single? What’s the difference between that and having the paperwork be official?

To the point about contracts, if a party fails to uphold their end of a contract, the other party is free to terminate the contract or pursue litigation. The line “till death do us part” is fairly part of nuptials, but really needs to be reconsidered. I reallly have no shame in feeling and saying that I felt I owed my ex wife and marriage nothing after she cheated. But my opinions are my own and I respect others who do not agree

[This message edited by nicenomore at 12:45 PM, January 22nd (Monday)]

Nightmare :

It would either be void or voidable in most instances.

In the case of a breach of contract, the offended party may, for example, withhold payment for goods and services that the offending party failed to deliver / perform.

In any event, it would be odd for a party who took money in exchange for a promise to provide goods being offended by the other party's failure to continue to make payments and make purchases from them in the future.

This all may cause the offended party to seek out another vendor / provider. Maybe in the future if the breaching party repairs their reputation and demonstrates that they can be trusted, the offended party will feel safe in making a new contractual relationship with them.

[This message edited by SilverLinings55 at 12:49 PM, January 22nd (Monday)]

" if you don’t plan to R, what’s the harm in enjoying casual sex with new people as if your single?

absolutely none IF you are single. so why stay married then? What would the point be? if you consider the vows broken then leave the relationship.

I guess the point of contention is the vows. Him breaking the vows didn't negate mine.

[This message edited by sewardak at 12:56 PM, January 22nd (Monday)]

I would be inclined to offer mercy to a BS that had an RA, especially if it happened within a year of finding out about their spouse’s affair.

I’d never condone it, or attempt it, but as one who has felt such enormous pain, I could almost see it happening. It could be a wounded BS grasping at any kind of connection.

As a hall pass or a “you got yours, I want mine” justification, no.

Just no.

I didn’t know any of my H’s affair partners, but one was his high school girlfriend. The one he lost his virginity to. The one I’ve listened to his brother wax poetically about our entire marriage. It’s excruciating regardless of if the AP was someone you knew or not. Your WS is the one that you no longer know.

[This message edited by Ginac at 1:06 PM, January 22nd (Monday)]

[This message edited by SilverLinings55 at 8:26 AM, January 26th (Friday)]

I think divorce is preferable to a RA using the justification of the vows being broken by one person so the BS is off the hook to maintain their vows.

i see nothing wrong with divorce over an infidelity or any other issue inside the marriage or with the marriage partners.

i do see nothing wrong with staying and not exacting punishment or revenge on the WS.

hell, I barely believe in God. But i believe in myself. And I made those vows to myself in addition to him. more like, i will remain faithful no matter what. even if we end up divorced (which would be fine in the lines of integrity) at least I will have upheld my share of the bargain. has nothing to do with religion.

A true "revenge" adultery couldn't be a "hall pass" version of the thing, incidentally, as far as I'm concerned.

Sex with consent is called "making love" or "casual/recreational sex" or else it's a kind of barter or payment/reimbusement/reward for something the participants gave or want in return. Or it's a power play or manipulation of some kind. Or it's prostitution.

Sex WITHOUT consent is rape. Or molestation. Or theft. Or adultery (from the BS's perspective).

The difference largely lies in the control and allowance or lack thereof in the situation.

Another difference lies in the valuing of the thing and the relationship and the integrity of BOTH, as well as one's own personal sense of integrity and values.

If I think the world of my wife and her sexual purity, but SHE doesn't feel the same about ME and mine or even about her own "purity" or the purity of a monogamous marriage, then it's a very different thing for me to "lose" her and my vested part in all of those things than it is for HER to "lose" something and someone that she's already counted as lost to her, or counted as not worth keeping sacred and consequently gave away for freaking FREE to people who didn't even value her one freaking BIT.

That's like telling a 4-year-old toddler that you'll give them a nice, yummy Jolly Rancher or a candy sucker-ring or some bubble gum in exchange for the tasteless diamond/gold-metal ring his mommy or daddy takes off and leaves by sink while they're doing the dishes every night. It's just not apples-to-apples.

To be an even exchange, it seems to ME that the WW would have to somehow value the spouse and/or marriage and fidelity and trust within that relationship to be intact and held in just as high an esteem as the BS did BEFORE the first-blood act of adultery was ever committed in the first place.

Then, after THAT, it would have to be done very much AGAINST the WW's will and "persmission" and sense of control. In fact, I think that a very great deal of the adultery thing that WW's engage in often has a LOT to do with simply exercising some kind of control in their own terms and conditions...and I think, too, that it is sometimes done as a way of not only exercising control for themselves, but also of TAKING control AWAY from their BS in a very REAL way!

I'm not recommending a plan of action for revenge here, btw. I'm only saying that my own wife gave me such a "hall pass" herself, but that's not the same thing as feeling raped and left for dead and stuck with keeping my own vows with her and God like I feel that I was.

I can't see that I would EVER give her such a hall pass of that nature, even if I were to be a WS, because I value sex and marriage and my wife and my vows and my faith and my God and my own integrity and even my own self-respect and self-esteem, and I even respect for OTHER WOMEN and THEIR bodies--ALL of these things and concepts--soooooooo much MORE than she did at the time!

Hell, I even respected HER and HER body and HER sexuality and purity better than SHE DID when we were actually just friends as WELL as when we both were courting/betrothed to be married! I say this because it was ME who set the boundaries for the both of us and kept holding things back, sexually speaking! And I'm the GUY for crying out loud!

I not only tried to look out for her honor when we were just talking about her boyfriend she had when we met at church summer camp hundreds of miles away from our respective homes, I also counseled her to watch her own gestures and signals/vibes she had while she was with ME and others, and she hadn't even had sex with me or anyone ELSE at that point (and neither had I, for that matter).

But I guess talking about all of this does help me to even better see how I feel about RA's once I get it out "on paper" some. I appreciate the questions and the topic being posed and so well remarked upon, even if it wasn't "my" topic to begin with.

if you don’t plan to R, what’s the harm in enjoying casual sex with new people as if your single?

Does the WS in this scenario know that there are no plans to reconcile?

IN my case I told her that her disrespect of me and our marriage effectively voided any commitment I had towards her, and that we were effectively seperated whether she liked it or not. I told her I would love my life as such, for myself, and that maybe we would reconcile down the road, maybe not but that it would be on her to prove to me why she was still worth being with. So effectively I broke up with her. What I regret not knowing was that it was a deal breaker for me, so I left the door for R open, in my own pain of a failed marriage to a woman I loved. I guess I would say my resolve to be permanently separated right away was not absolute, but certainly in the short term I told her I didn’t feel I owed her anything.

And NOW I see where we were missing each other's point earlier, Silver.

I assumed that when you or anyone on here said their vows that they were actually MEANING them and understanding the terms and conditions being stated and implied and sworn to when they said/took them.

According to what I'm hearing you say about those "vows" in your most recent post, you only agreed to be a parrot reciting lines from a poem or a play in order to make everyone happy that you were playing nice by jumping through THEIR ceremonial hoops, like saying "Mother may I" or "Simon says" in a child's game by the same name.

My own wife has said much of the same thing regarding the agreements/vows we both "took" on our wedding day and prior to that as well.

She said that for HER, it was much like when you get a new software or app downloaded on your PC or phone. There's this lengthy legal verbage that's typically pretty standardized that EVERY company seems to make you click a checkbox or a "yes" that indicates agreement to all the multifarious terms and conditions to in order to open up the thing and start playing/using it.

She ALWAYS checks the "yes, I read and understand the terms and agree to abide by them" box--usually without bothering to open and read it and the ridiculous amount of legal jargon in the attached document it refers to.

I most ALWAYS read it or at least scan thru it FIRST however. That way I know I'm being honest when I check the box that says "yes, I've read and agree" to the conditions therein.

I think I'm in the minority there.

But we both drafted up our vows in our own handwriting and somewhat independently of one another. And I also spent about one to two HOURS trying to scare her off from starting a relationship with me at the very outset of our courtship by giving her a virtual SERMON/warning via a long distance phone call about how religious and conservative and fanatical I was and how wild and crazy the terms and conditions would be for being involved (courting and marrying) with me would entail!

Soooooo, it was more of a thing for us and ME in particular than it was for most anyone else I have ever even HEARD of before in my life. Who else tries to scare off a girl with a scare-tactic sermon-warning just as a test to see if they're inexorably "destined" or God-approved to be the ONE that they should court (date/betroth, that is) towards MARRIAGE from DAY 1??

Not your standard pick-up line I don't reckon...

"IN my case I told her that her disrespect of me and our marriage effectively voided any commitment I had towards her, and that we were effectively seperated whether she liked it or not. I told her I would love my life as such, for myself, and that maybe we would reconcile down the road, maybe not but that it would be on her to prove to me why she was still worth being with. So effectively I broke up with her. What I regret not knowing was that it was a deal breaker for me, so I left the door for R open, in my own pain of a failed marriage to a woman I loved. I guess I would say my resolve to be permanently separated right away was not absolute, but certainly in the short term I told her I didn’t feel I owed her anything."

I understand this but don't know what it has to do with having sex with other people, or dating for that matter. It's like the MHBS just can't wait to be released from their vow or marriage or they want to be separated so they can make a direct beeline for anyone willing. for what purpose? do you really think this is the good time for a relationship? this is why a RA or any affair seems so distasteful to me. You're already in a relationship and need time to extricate yourself, even emotionally.

[This message edited by sewardak at 2:28 PM, January 22nd (Monday)]

According to what I'm hearing you say about those "vows" in your most recent post, you only agreed to be a parrot reciting lines from a poem or a play in order to make everyone happy that you were playing nice by jumping through THEIR ceremonial hoops, like saying "Mother may I" or "Simon says" in a child's game by the same name.

It's quite ironic for the purposes of this conversation, don't you think,

[This message edited by SilverLinings55 at 8:26 AM, January 26th (Friday)]