SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

NoThanksForTheMemories in another thread posed an interesting topic.

The thing she mentioned piqued my curiosity:

It would be interesting to survey BSes to see what commonalities we have in terms of personality. Certainly there seems to be a lot of common traits for WSes, so why not us too?

I asked myself this question other times as well, but more in the light of WS reactivity to a BS’s traits, mostly I framed it that way because I know personally know, had some meddling with, cheaters who don’t necessarily cheated/cheat until they got with a specific person. So I suspect that while there are obviously different types of WSes (cutting off the pathological cheaters) and they do share some common traits, there might be something in us BSes personality that they react to, triggering the infidelity.

This is obviously not to say we carry any responsibility for their choices of betrayal, I was pondering if there’s is some chemistry at work here, why a person with let’s say "recessive and non-dominant cheater traits " doesn’t express it with some partners but when they find a matching partner the "cheater trait" becomes dominant and gets expressed. A reaction to something, and it doesn’t mean that something in us is a negative per-se, might be a big positive, but the "cheater trait " reacts to this something dysfunctionally.

That premise was my old, still unanswered question. However. It is still focused on the WS, personality, choices, reactions..

I like the way NoThanksForTheMemories posed it, because we don’t give us BS much the time of day.
We talk a lot about our wounds, pain and destruction of identity and life, but we rarely if ever talk about "us".

Why don’t we try to shift this focus for once and see if we too share some communality in our personalities and if that means something or our abuse is just random and we were simply unlucky and picked the short straw.

I will contribute right here:

- I used to be very introspective and respectful of others, often putting others before me. didn’t ever feel inferior to others, on the contrary I was always good in see people’s merits and flaws, so I had standards on who I allowed in my boundaries, but at the same time I felt kind of responsible to allow others access to things that were easy reach for myself. So I often allowed others to get "in front of the line" I could say, if I was neutral or sympathetic to them. On the flip side if I didn’t like someone I would openly stand ground, and if they were particularly nasty I would go for open conflict in any form and push back until they behave or be crushed and humiliated.

Today the first part is basically gone, not from the side of respect or empathy, that’s actually deeper I am far less guarded towards people, I let many more in. But on the side of allowing others before me. That’s gone, I come first, I respect you, but wait for your turn.

- emotionally I was all or nothing. There was black and white. Standards checks out? You are allowed in my inner world and I would defend you fiercely not matter what. They don’t? Respectfully distancing. Expect politeness and respect from me, but I’m not sharing anything of my inner self.
This brought me few but very good friendships, obviously the flip was kind of isolation in the crowd.

Today the second part is gone. During the betrayal PTSD the border was closed, who is in is in (and watched with somewhat fear or a note of mistrust, but still in) and nobody crosses, good or bad, the border is shut. Now I don’t care, I show myself fully to strangers, allow them chance to connect with me, notice that people like and seek me out a lot (infinitely more than before obviously) and I do feel more comfortable and connected. I have no fear of shitty behavior or red flags because for once, I simply accept the people are like they are, good and bad, seconds and most important: no matter how hard the crisis some could cause, it doesn’t scare me. It is just manageable.

Instead of giving all or nothing today I can give in the measure the person in front of me deserves. Theirs is no judgment, there is recognition, acceptance and boundaries. But the iron curtain is gone.

- self worth. That’s tricky:
It was both very high and low at the same time. I used to feel extremely proud of my values and individual qualities, because I put them to the test and even questioned them over and over and they always came back passing the good or wrong benchmark. So I held them with pride and stood tall with them.
The flip side is I had harsh judgment about others flaws. Some well deserved (when they cross the "shitty" threshold on my personal shitscale) other judgements too harsh: we all have flaws, but most people flaws are weaknesses that they don’t necessarily indulge with or try to correct. This is way different than "becoming shitty" intentionally, people may slip but they then pick themselves up and on track (this is today’s understanding). So they don’t deserve to be exiled just for their latent flaws.

The low: the harsh judgement was not reserved to others only. I was always on the bench to assess my own self. Can I uphold to my standards? Sometimes I just felt lacking so I punished myself severely. More than self improvement it was like perfectionism. Sure your trials of fire forges you in being better than most at whatever you put soul and blood into. But if you are harder with your self than you are already to others…. You won’t feel very happy with it self worth wise.

Plus, being a person with a stick up their ass, hard to be recognized by others too: people may be drawn to you and your qualities initially, but not many are willing to undergo hardships just to "prove worthy " they feel better in a more relaxed environment. So you don’t get enough recognition for your values, not as nearly as they are worthy. Because you held up impossible standards, not because they aren’t worth praising or they are bad. Your stick is simply so far up your ass than most just don’t want to measure against that, so they avoid. You can’t fully measure to it either. So your pride eats at your low self worth. The "rejection " (but is more healthy avoidance) of many eats at your self worth and also crystallizes harsher judgement of others flaws (vicious circle). Hence the self worth becomes a roller coaster, you have highs when you measure and low when you fail and other fail or are too off put to even try.

Note: that trait did indeed attracted a lot of people pleasers and perfectionists around me, many of them turned into cheaters lately and the pay seemed to seek forgiveness or help from me in those cases (they didn’t cheat on me but they turned out to with some partner). Is like your approval or just comfort is some kind of balm.

Dysfunctional.

That’s gone obviously, I have the same standards, they are stronger too but more realistically they are aspirations, not unreachable goals that must be met.

- External validation.
Tricky as well. I didn’t need it but I craved it. With the above is perhaps more understandable what this means.
I was fine alone with myself, spent a ton of time in my head and introspection and measuring up, that gave me internal validation and I was fine in that sense.

But I was rarely present as my natural self, because I was recluse, so my own high standards made the cut too high for most people to pass. Not that they couldn’t if they wanted, it was simply too much work so why bother? They didn’t have to prove themselves to be worthy, only some people who tend to challenge themselves were finding that attractive.
This trait of my old personality that was sort of a defense and a filter, slowly backfired because I didn’t need external validation but I liked when I got it. And then I cut off many with my attitude and part of me missed their validation because they weren’t too bad even if they didn’t fully cut it. The inflexible part of me was adamant that they have to go.
Give few years of puberty and adolescence and this turns into validation craving that erodes your own standards in the long term because it fills you with a void.

So I had a complete dichotomy between the 2 sides and I indulged at some point in the very behaviors that I would consider debauchery through my standards. Withholding good part of my moral code still, because some lines I wouldn’t cross.

But I sort of rebelled to myself because I felt like I don’t belong. That energy was like a flame for moths and you collect metric tons of validation from others, suddenly cool, popular and desired, and that’s a high that hits you.

And breaks you too, because it’s a rebellion against your own standards (too harsh) but they don’t relent biting so your self judgement is harsher, outside validation can never match internal criticism or the withdrawal of inside validation.

You are loved and desired from the outside but you stop loving yourself when you betray some of the values that made you judge others so harshly. And you know you are performing because while you do you know that’s going against your own brakes, so the void is created, you pour more in from the outside and you are still left empty.

At some point that has to stop because you can’t hold your impossibly high standards and then behave against without breaking.

So you come back to the validation that matters at some point, the internal one, and you try to smooth it down by finding a focus. In my case that was love, it was the part that smoothed out the harsher standards and made me into giving and helping and accepting the lack of those standards in my partner.

Then you know what happened and a complete collapse of everything for 18 years.

Today again, I need no validation from the outside at all, I stand by my principles but it’s different. I get constantly showered by external validation without effort or requires ping it. But that’s because I’m present, unmasked and at peace. It feels nice but I don’t need it nor crave it.

It’s like the desires from the past realized naturally when you just gave up, both in upholding your stick and searching for recognition. You are just yourself present here and now without neediness.

And that’s pretty damn good.

PS
Wow I do see something here I didn’t realize earlier.

Maybe is still confused and unpolished but thanks NoThankForTheMemories it was a good excercise and found some pieces of the puzzle along the way

I was too nice. I was too accommodating. I put her first and foremost above myself. I gave her too many little spontaneous tokens of affection and in hindsight I realized it had become incredibly one-sided.

There were mornings when she would walk out to her car and find a flower on the dash because I got up in the middle of the night and went out there. Or she would come home from girls night at a friend's house and there were hundreds of Paper Hearts on the floor from the front door to the bedroom that I spent hours cutting out. One time we went to an Irish Festival and there was a green wool sweater she really liked so I secretly had my son go back and buy it and the following week I called her coworker and arranged for the co-worker to get my wife out of her office for a few minutes so I could sneak in and put the sweater on her chair and then sneak back out. Or one day she was having a bad day at work so I made her favorite tea and surprised her with it at work. I pull it a lot of effort into doing little things like this because I thought that would keep her happy thus we would be happy

If we were low on coffee creamer she got what was left and I went without. Flowers at work. Holding her car door every time she got into the car. Offering massages that lasted on average 2 hours sometimes hitting three and they were offered, never had to be requested. I think the ratio of times I gave her a massage to her giving me one was probably 30 to 1. If she complained about her feet hurting I was already offering to rub them whereas the reverse was not true. Holding hands while walking somewhere.

I was the steady Dependable reliable trustworthy hard-working husband who busted his butt during the week and then spent the weekends fixing things or doing things and I think because of all of this I became boring in her eyes.

There was zero unpredictability in me, there was no challenge, there was no edge, no "danger", just steady dependable reliable aka boring.

I told her things about myself that in hindsight I wish I had kept to myself but I thought she was someone I could be totally open and vulnerable with. I think that's what most people believe about their spouse

If my boys meet someone I will try to convince them to never get married, it's just not worth the risk anymore. If you want to have a relationship with someone and maybe have kids, okay, but don't get married. Always plan to protect yourself at all times

why a person with let’s say "recessive and non-dominant cheater traits " doesn’t express it with some partners but when they find a matching partner the "cheater trait" becomes dominant and gets expressed

.

Last year I had a, um, "debate" with people here about whether anyone could cheat. I truly believed that I would never do it, and still refused to believe I was a cheater for years even after I had done it several times, and I was just learning that WS have much deeper internal reasons for why they do it than just the surface conditions of their environment, circumstances, or marital situation...

I was asking, well if WS have these internal issues that they weren't even conscious of which enabled them to cheat, how does anyone who believes themselves incapable of infidelity know for certain that they themselves don't have hidden internal issues that would enable them to cheat if external conditions were conducive to it? (For me, that looked like feeling lonely in my marriage + FOO fear of abandonment + FOO inclination towards dishonesty + lack of self love + a desire to escape my home responsibilities (internal conditions) + having all kinds of free time that I didn't usually at home + marital conditions + AP's apparent/supposed desire to connect with me + opportunity (external conditions) = affair) How did they know they didn't have these "sleeper issues" that would be activated by the "perfect storm" of external conditions, opportunity, and temptation? Well, the conversation went downhill very fast, as it often did then. People were very angry with me that I would suggest such a thing like anybody is capable of cheating/could cheat, and they accused me of blame-shifting and/or trying to "bring everyone else down to my moral level" so that I could feel better about myself after having been unfaithful (which I knew in my heart wasn't true of me--I just wanted to discuss the hypothesis on a philosophical level-- but how often is that ever a response from a WS that gets accepted here? Almost never.)

Anyway, I don't bring that up with any interest in debating the topic again, but rather because the way you're describing "recessive" cheater traits being activated by certain BS traits just reminded me of the "sleeper issues" hypothesis I was proposing back then. I'm curious to see how this discussion will go, and whether it's different because a BS started it this time. I wonder if there will be pushback against the idea that infidelity has anything to do with BS at all, whether that's what you're actually saying or not.

often putting others before me. didn’t ever feel inferior to others, on the contrary I was always good in see people’s merits and flaws,

Describes me to a tee.

Very considerate — see the good in people unless given a reason not to.

The post 2x-affair me is not much different except I put myself first now. And I don’t give people a second chance.

And I listen to my "little voice" or gut instinct. If something is off, I pay attention.

Morbs

Girl I get that and I get why is hard to explain.

The key of it all is choice or rather a series of choices intentionally taken that drive someone to cheat. Before that even. Choices that drives you to entertain the fantasy first, the chance later and take the opportunity when it presents is the final choice of a long decision chain.

It’s not necessarily a given a non cheater holds higher moral standards than a soon to become cheater.

You may have high ideals or a more grounded ethic and none is a predictor for loyalty or infidelity in my opinion.

I guess is partially because one is inflexible about crossing certain boundaries. Probably most people have doubts at some point and doubts might explore a fantasy of "what if".

You shut it down then and there. That’s how one becomes incapable of cheating.

If you indulge in the fantasy, at some point you’ll give it a face or a few faces. That’s where you begin sliding towards the swamp. Each boundary you cross accelerates it.

Those who shut down the fantasy at its inception and recognize it for what it is (insecurity or escape from emotion) feel no attraction even when the "opportunity " tries to barge in. You feel disgust because you see a mirror of what you could become. So the potential AP is not attractive, is gross, repulsive, dirty.

If you indulged in the fantasy and followed that slope, then it can look like temptation, and you are just one step away to dive in the sewage swimming pool at that point.

Basically I thinks the series of choices we picked first that makes us see a thing as trash or desirable. We know since the start what it is, it’s trash, but we indulged in the choices that will allow us to pick the sandwich from the dumpster and bite, and maybe pretend it’s yummy as we chose it.

I can only bring my mistakes as comparison, but the rebellion against my own values at some point made me indulge in stuff that I found gross before (and after) because it is gross. Sexual promiscuity. Orgies with more than a girl at a time. Of some "partners " I don’t even remember the names because I never even bothered asking.

How do I see this "morally"? I think is gross, but I have no problem with people doing it as long as they are all honest and consenting.

I engaged in that shit while feeling both terrible and good, until I broke.

I kind of understand the wayward side because while I never allowed myself to harm or lie to someone, I went to dysfunctional lows that I truly don’t like just to fill a void.

Filling with emptiness leaves you empty.

Again same difficulty in expressing, what do I mean is when you cross certain boundaries it changes you, you get dirty and doesn’t feel good.

You can then clean up yourself and learn that you feel dirty because you betrayed yourself in allowing it.

This is probably common to many of us overall (not debauchery but self betrayal).

The only difference between the infidelity line and my shortcomings is that I caused misery and pain and self sabotage only to myself. No one else got hurt. Is like burning down my home. "Good job idiot, what did you expect?" Is bad and feels bad, but is a learning experience. Different is if I burn down my home with a loved ones closed inside and burn them alive. Worse then that instead of warning that I was going to burn it down, I did lie and schemed to keep them completely unaware and feel safe to stay in right while I was pouring gasoline.

That’s the line I never crossed and avoided decisions that may lead there.

I felt that that would cost my soul too much, so that line I never cross.

Confusingly tried to explain, but I get it

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 12:29 PM, Wednesday, June 17th]

For years, most of my life, I was an alcoholic. A very functional one. I never missed work or slacked there. I was pretty selfish about it, tho. I quit drinking over ten years ago, and I suspect it led to some psychological issues. I lost a lot of weight and fell into a depression with a lot of anxiety, which led to me ending up on a maximum daily dose of sertraline, an SSRI, for several years. That helped with the anxiety, but seemed to suck all of the joy out of my life. It killed my libido, gave me anorgasmia, and I just stopped caring about pretty much anything. Our sex life dried up for a long time. This most certainly led to problems between my wife and I.

I've always been at least somewhat anxious. I did have a tendency to people please and often did put others first (unless it interfered with my drinking). One day I just decided to quit, and I think it was a pretty profound shock to my nervous system. I didn't go to any groups or do a 12 step or anything. I didn't go through physical withdrawals, but I think my brain was so used to being soaked in alcohol that it didn't know what to do without it. I didn't crave or anything and actually quit fairly easily. I didn't slip up or relapse or anything, but my nervous system sure rebelled. Maybe some programs or something could have helped me there. I'm 6' tall and weighed 160 lbs. I dropped down to 128. That's far too skinny on my frame. I think part of it was that I was drinking most of my calories. When I quit drinking I didn't adjust my eating habits.

I dunno. I don't necessarily think BS' will have a ton in common, and I wonder if that's the case even with WS' outside of people pleasing. Unless my wife and I are an anomaly. In our case I understand the conditions that led to my wife cheating. When I quit drinking and was on antidepressants I was a mess. I don't give her a free pass because of that, tho. I know, especially now after being here for a year, that there's no excuse for infidelity and she could have done a hundred other things that didn't involve cheating, but it was completely understandable for her to feel unloved and invisible. I wasn't a great husband at all for quite a few years. I really don't think she would have had an affair without those stressors. She wasn't a great wife during that time either, tho. We were both a mess.

I weaned off the SSRI a handful of years ago, and it took quite a while for some of the more unpleasant side effects to wear off. A few years, and one of the sexual side effects still lingers, but has actually turned into a benefit. The waning anorgasmia leads to some pretty long and intense experiences. Our sex life is off the charts now. We're both very enthusiastic about it.

I've also gained a good portion of my weight back and have found joy in my life again. I get goosebumps from music again, something that entirely went away when I was on the SSRI. Music had always been a big part of my life. My parents were in a band, I played drums, and I'm an audiophile with a nice sound system. I had even stopped listening to, or getting any enjoyment from that. From my reading I think I was dopamine starved. That's all returning now.

Her affair was a massive wake up call for both of us. Yes, she was pretty shitty for that first month after d day, but when faced with the loss of our marriage it was like a switch flipped inside both of us. In between my triggers and bad days we're like newlyweds again. We've both reprioritized each other and we're pretty inseparable now. The people around us notice it, too, including our son. He's an adult now at 27, and I can tell he's very happy for us. I think he's even happier himself now, even tho he's been on his own for quite a while. We hear from him pretty often and he likes to hang out with us while we take turns playing music and talking.

I was an introvert when I was younger. Alcohol was my social lubricant. It made me extroverted. When I quit drinking I became an introvert again. I stopped hanging out with my drinking buddies and pretty much withdrew from the world. I've been coming out of my shell with family, but haven't really formed a new friend group. My wife, son, and her parents are pretty much my whole world now. My whole family lives over 2000 miles away, and we were never really tight. I definitely have some FOO issues that would probably do me some good to sort out. I haven't talked to my mom or sister in years. I see them as toxic. My mother even told me she thinks my sister is toxic for me, but as far as I'm concerned my mom is in that category also. I always feel worse when talking to or seeing them.

Phew, that was a lot. I hope it wasn't TMI. I almost deleted this post, but I think I'm gonna run with it.

I think you're likely to see commonalities in terms of the personality of people who read and post on a forum like this - survivorship bias or something. I have friends who were betrayed and would consider reading and posting here a self-inflicted form of torture.

Anyway, I don't bring that up with any interest in debating the topic again, but rather because the way you're describing "recessive" cheater traits being activated by certain BS traits just reminded me of the "sleeper issues" hypothesis I was proposing back then. I'm curious to see how this discussion will go, and whether it's different because a BS started it this time. I wonder if there will be pushback against the idea that infidelity has anything to do with BS at all, whether that's what you're actually saying or not.

It's not a hill I'm prepared to die on, but after my wife's infidelity I do wonder if there might be a "perfect storm" for pretty much anyone. I know that's a very controversial stance, especially here, but for my wife to cheat was extremely out of character. NO ONE saw it coming. Not even her mother.

I've had opportunities over the years and rejected them, but if the right stressors were in place? I dunno. I've been hit on even while pretty drunk and didn't take the bait. This whole experience really shook up my whole world and changed the way I see people in general tho. I think anyone is capable of pretty much anything now, given just the right set of circumstances.

I think you're likely to see commonalities in terms of the personality of people who read and post on a forum like this - survivorship bias or something. I have friends who were betrayed and would consider reading and posting here a self-inflicted form of torture. laugh

This is my thought. I think people who come here and stay tend to be more introspective and analytical, and that’s across the board of bs and ws alike.

A lot of people who come here have a codependent personality type and struggle with (or have in the past) one or more core symptoms:

-difficulty with appropriate levels of self esteem

-difficulty setting functional boundaries

-difficulty owning our own reality

-difficulty acknowledging and meeting our own needs and wants and being interdependent with others.

My husband’s codependency is minimal, he has always been self directed in most ways. I have every sign of it under the sun: excessive people pleasing, difficulty saying no, over responsibility for other peoples emotions or problems, low self esteem, fear of abandonment or rejection, difficulty Identifying and expressing my feelings, dependency in relationships for self worth, denial of personal problems or needs, chronic guilt and shame, perfectionism. But I see these things in many bs here.

Personally, I think the distinction of a bs and a ws lies in just a few things including:

1. A ws is more likely to have less of an attachment to their own values. I did the things I thought I was supposed to moreso than feeling strongly on why it was right or wrong. So when the things I was supposed to do became inconvenient emotionally, I had no issue going with my impulse rather than having those things stop me. Interestingly I still seemed to have a conscience but I think it was born from my codependent traits —hurting someone is unbearable to me. I was able to deny this was going to happen when I did what I wanted to do but when faced with the reality of the damage, you may as well have peeled my skin off because that would have been easier to heal.

2. Coping mechanisms. Huge differences. While a bs could come from terrible circumstances, there has been a different way they learned to deal with those issues. A ws is more likely to have an addictive personality, or use escapism/avoidance heavily and not have well developed coping strategies. So when things are bad they lean into the addictions and escapism almost to the point of burying themselves in it.

3. Past experience or exposure to infidelity through past romantic ir close family relationships. Once you have been exposed to the non-tv version of infidelity many people develop an understanding of it that would prevent them from proceeding.

So for pogre, for example—-he is the bs and he thinks his alcohol problems and subsequent sexual performance may have triggered the cheating. To correct that, I would purpose that had his wife had better relationship to her values, or different coping mechanisms likely she would have ser boundaries and later possibly divorced you. It’s not maybe the solution you would have wanted her to use but that’s what a person with stronger sense of values and better coping skills would do, even if they are also codependent.

We all have flaws and imperfections, I would be interested in knowing if some of the bs feel they didn’t cheat for reasons outside of the three things I listed. I am guessing this is what you have most strongly in common. And the reality is we all have more in common than we don’t, probably mostly due to site bias and the fact the ws we have here are either really trying to get out of infidelity or already successfully have.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:20 PM, Wednesday, June 17th]

@Morbs, I know you don't want to debate this but I've got to bite

Last year I had a, um, "debate" with people here about whether anyone could cheat. I truly believed that I would never do it, and still refused to believe I was a cheater for years even after I had done it several times

After reading a ton of your posts... I have no idea why you thought this of yourself. Really no offense intended but that just seems like a failure of introspection.

'personally don't have strict monogamy as a value; as long as I'm getting enough love, attention, validation, quality time, resources, sex, conversation, etc. from my partner, I don't really care if said partner has relationships with other people'

You were trying to hold yourself to a standard of monogamy that you literally did not value or fundamentally understand. I'm not saying sleeper issues didn't play a role but that's a monumental difference between you and others.

Therefore, it stands to reason that people with a completely different set of core values will find it much easier not to cheat. For someone who genuinely values fidelity, monogamy isn't a restrictive rule they have to white-knuckle their way through; it is an intrinsic part of how they love and respect their partner. They don't cheat because doing so would violently clash with who they are at their core.

I do concede that seeing the fallout from my fathers infidelity probably helped align my principles from an early age. Benefits of having a scumbag sperm donor i guess.

Anyways... lets not go back through all that.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 3:59 PM, Wednesday, June 17th]

It's not a hill I'm prepared to die on, but after my wife's infidelity I do wonder if there might be a "perfect storm" for pretty much anyone. I know that's a very controversial stance, especially here, but for my wife to cheat was extremely out of character. NO ONE saw it coming. Not even her mother.

I do think my affair was a perfect storm in many ways so I don’t doubt that happens for people. That didn’t mean I didn’t have a lot of self analysis to do that were contributing factors to being able to do it. Same for my husband. I think he has good coping, but in the aftermath of my affair I think it was a mixture of rebellion, he has a bit of the knight in shining armor and had a soft spot for the woman he cheated with—-which in some ways was how he chose me as well.

There are always underlying factors but I don’t think all ws are these monstrous people their whole marriage or evil to their core. Some people will cheat out of pure opportunity, some will cheat when opportunity meets circumstances, and other variations. So I don’t think your view is off base. Many affairs have some sort of existential crisis involved that can be a contributing factor.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:22 PM, Wednesday, June 17th]

BackfromtheStorm, I've been curious about this notion for several years and I've yet to identify any traits that we all have in common (aside from being betrayed spouses).

Anyone can be betrayed, which is why I'm convinced that infidelity has absolutely nothing at all to do with spouses or the state of their marriages.

KitchenDepth5551 made an interesting observation that never occurred to me. One thing SI's members do have in common is a willingness to join a community like this one. Some are more engaging and active than others, which depends upon a wide variety of factors. Still, we all share a willingness to share.

I have noticed a few patterns in human nature, however. I can read a few posts from a BS and make a fairly accurate prediction regarding the outcome of their situation. I have never actually followed through with a case by case study, of course, which is why I temper those assessments and avoid making assumptions.

I think you're likely to see commonalities in terms of the personality of people who read and post on a forum like this - survivorship bias or something. I have friends who were betrayed and would consider reading and posting here a self-inflicted form of torture. laugh

Fair point.

I doubt we could count of contributions from people like the guy who jumped from the balcony yesterday or like other betrayed people that are just too hurt by and are barely breathing and pulling through.

This place can help but is too scary or too painful for some.

But we have introspective people here, many doing the work and striving to understand.

So the sample is smaller but it is also a gold mine.

@unhinged
Yep I kind of agree, but I have a hunch that is not about the WS agency choice and flaws, is about something in us ignoring 🚩

Because often we did have partners before that we left for red flags right? So why we didn’t until we got burned here?

Is just a hunch, I know my whys in part, but I wonder if there’s something that can be pin pointed

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 4:11 PM, Wednesday, June 17th]

Yep I kind of agree, but I have a hunch that is not about the WS agency choice and flaws, is about something in us ignoring 🚩

I really believe my wife not only ignored red flags, but didn't even recognize them as they were flapping in her face. She has almost zero experience with romantic relationships outside of our marriage. I was the first guy to really sweep her off her feet. She had never been seriously involved with anyone before me. I was her first. She had barely even kissed another guy before. Her mother had begun to wonder if she was gay because she just wasn't interested in any guys, and a 27 year old virgin isn't very common.

She looks back now and really kicks herself for not recognizing what was happening when AP started showering her with unrealistic levels of compliments, affirmation and understanding (he's also epileptic). Her condition, caused by a TBI as a baby, epilepsy, is a factor, too. She's not really significantly cognitively impaired, but she is wired differently and can be emotionally immature sometimes.

I really believe she learned a very hard, nasty lesson from this. Well, I s'pose we both did...

[This message edited by Pogre at 4:46 PM, Wednesday, June 17th]

I, too, think KD5551 nailed the commonalities.

I've always been pro-pleasure. I didn't see a lot of pleasure coming from women, however, until I learned that W2b was as hooked on me in her way as I was on her in mine. Our honeymoon was scheduled for the Osaka World Fair, 2 years after we got married, so we spent a few nights in various hotels as we moved from W's hometown to ours. Then we moved in together.

I've never had more pleasure than those first few days learning just how pleasurable living with my W was. We were grad students, and I was surrounded by girls who I thought could give just as much pleasure as my W could. But if I availed myself of the opportunities, I knew I was likely to screw up my relationships with the very people I sought pleasure from. Still, I was going crazy with all the available women around.

My solution was to make my W my sole focus for sexual pleasure. I allowed myself to see and acknowledge the beauty and sexiness of any woman who caught my eye, but I allowed fantasies and actual activities to be between me and my W. W was good with that. Fantasies could start with someone else, but once I realized what was going on, I consciously put my W into the fantasy and removed everybody else, except myself.

A few years later, we lived on Taiwan, then the sex capital of the world, the place to go for R & R (called 'I & I' by the GIs) for single and unfaithful Americans fighting in SE Asia. I tutored a guy in English. My pay was dinner, some local currency, and girls. He never understood why I refused the girls. I wished I could have accepted them. It just seemed unwise. (House Hunters International tells me THE place to go for high-end sex then is now a desirable residential area. Blows my mind.)

I told myself that being faithful to my W would make her faithful to me, and that worked until I realized she would be faithful or not because of her own decisions.

But - but - but ... I like pleasure. I like women. Maybe I'm a loyal person. Maybe I just haven't met the wrong person. Maybe I'm just afraid I'll go crazy if I give up monogamy, and I don't want to go crazy.

*****

I'm totally convinced that there are 'right people' for each of us. The corollary is that there are 'wrong people.' I believe one of the enablers of my W's A is that she met a person who was simply and terribly wrong for her. If she hadn't met ow or someone like her (male, female, or in between), my W would never have cheated.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:00 PM, Wednesday, June 17th]

I told myself that being faithful to my W would make her faithful to me, and that worked until I realized she would be faithful or not because of her own decisions.

Phew. Yup. I was right there with you. I thought my fidelity would guarantee hers. Afterall, out of the 2 of us, on paper, you'd think I would stray before her. My FOO history and drinking habits were fertile grounds for infidelity.

For me, I think my wife's affair happened simply because she took advantage of my trust and ignorance.

My wife and I met when we were teenagers. From that point on, I really put this woman on a pedestal. I let her do whatever she wanted, whenever she wanted. As we aged, I literally took over almost every adult role in our relationship. I made the money, I managed the bills, and I took on all the responsibility and stress that comes with running a household. I even do the vast majority of the household chores (cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping, yard work, home projects, etc.).

I often tell people the day my son was born, is the day I grew up. I'm so thankful for that, because he really morphed me into the man I am today. With that being said, I don't think my wife ever truly grew up. Looking back, I take accountability in my role for that outcome. Why would she when I handle everything?

Maybe I got boring? Or maybe she was just using me, I don't know. Either way, I realized early on that I was going to have to lead and believe me, she had no problem letting me.

Also looking back, I overlooked the red flags. My wife has always been too "friendly", especially with the opposite sex. I always felt it, but never questioned it because I trusted her. She has an addiction to her phone, including social media. So when her replies to me got shorter and less frequent, I should have questioned it because she is ALWAYS on the phone. I noticed other things as well, extended phone calls at odd hours, phone glued to her side, notifications being turned off at night, and just an overall feeling of "what are you doing all day when I'm not home?". The signs were there and obvious, I was just too stupid and too busy to see it.

I'm not the jealous type, so I never checked in on her. Plus, we live a pretty good life with young children. We always had a good sex life and she always seemed to adore me. Why would she ever cheat? I just didn't think she had it in her. Boy, was that a foolish thought.

Honestly, I just made everything way too easy for her, especially the opportunity to hide things. Ultimately, I think that's what got me burnt.

As already noted in the thread, I think infidelity can happen to anyone.

I think we’re all capable of it too — although some of us have better boundaries, some of us don’t want to hurt our partners, some of us simply try to keep the promises made.

I think everyone betrayed asks the question, what was it about me that allowed this to happen?

However, I learned, it was NEVER about me. Nothing about my kindness or care, nothing about my bad habits either.

There were about 300 people at our wedding, and I know if all were asked in a poll, which partner in our M would be voted most likely to cheat — all 300 friends and family would have picked me.

All of them.

The A happened in a state far from our original home. Years later, after it was all over, we moved back.

I chose not to tell the folks at home.

My call, I know I can change my mind at any moment, but it has become a fascinating thought experiment to see how people still see my wife as Ms. Goody Two-shoes. That was her nickname and some people still use it today.

My wife, K-12 never got anything less than an A. She never missed class. She never missed work. She never missed church. She aimed for perfection in everything she did. She did all of that to try to impress parents who were either too drunk or too narcissistic to provide a safe space for kids. All this and my FOO were off the charts too, that’s how my wife and I initially bonded, over horrible childhood experiences.

Perfection never gave her a good day, and added to her building misery and resentment.

Anyway, neither of us had great boundaries, we were happy flirts, we were the fun couple everyone invited over, etc.

All that and five bucks will get me is an overpriced cup of coffee.

My wife didn’t keep it a secret because she was taking advantage of the nice guy — she kept it a secret because she was certain I would leave.

I was certain I would leave too. Until I didn’t, but that’s a whole other topic.

My only reminder is, it didn’t happen because of me, it happened because my wife had an unhealthy view of herself and an unhealthy take on love.

She put some of that back together herself after the unceremonious way the A ended. But the eventual counseling helped, her reading SI helped, and my giving her one last shot at the M, helped.

Old wounds

I tried to put it in the premises.

This has nothing to do with WS responsibility which stands solely on them.
There is no blame shifting here.

The hypothesis that there might be some alchemy leading to the perfect storm is mine alone, and perhaps I should have not put it here.

This is a question from no thanks for the memories, as she noted that we analyze a lot common personality traits of WS, but actually we never really looked at us BS, if we share something in common traits.

Besides obviously that we are already using this space to both provide and get support, which is already unusual as most bs just suffer alone and are too shamed to talk.

That’s the main point.

BackfromtheStorm --

There is no blame shifting here.

I didn't make any suggestion that there was.

It is a survey, and I relayed my experience with the topic.

I think it can happen to anyone, regardless of our traits, common or otherwise.