SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The thread asking why this site has less usage went way off target so I thought I start a new one here. It’s of my OPINION that members insisting their values and their beliefs based off their own experiences and needs somehow become universal facts or truths are a huge problem and turn off for this site . For example, many people here push back on the statement by a betrayed spouse that their WS is a good parent. They are met with "no good parent would endanger a family, etc." And while it is of my belief that a perfect parent would not, I fully believe one can be a good and imperfect parent. I saw that with my own cheating spouse. He offered way more to our kids than what his cheating took. They were and are better off with him as a father. In my reality, he was a good yet flawed parent.

Another opinion I read here that is often presented as a fact is that"your marriage is a lie or a sham". Who is anyone else to make that statement about another’s relationship? That is an opinion based off their own needs, values, and feelings and it assumes that one places fidelity as the only thing that makes a marriage. The only fact one knows for sure when we hear of another being cheated on is that they’ve been lied to about important things. For me, marriage is far more than fidelity and therefore the absence of fidelity although painful and not what I’d ever knowingly agree to, does not negate my entire marriage. I understand that others have different feelings about this based off their own needs and values and that’s understandable. But, what’s not is the need for others to have their opinions, needs, and values become the gold standard of indisputable fact . I open this post to dialogue, but if you’re one of those who will come here and I insist that your beliefs are some absolute truth then please don’t bother.

Well — I’m not a fan of when people present their opinion as fact — but I understand why people do that.

If someone’s WS had no remorse or made dday worse by blaming the BS or the list of other horrible things WS can do, I understand their perception about R.

A happily divorced person or even an unhappily divorced person can’t really wrap their heads around making peace with someone who hurts them.

I’ll always understand why people leave and start over.

However, and here is where I agree another thread on opinions, or facts, perceptions etc, regarding outcomes is important — happily R people exist as well. Here on SI, out in the real world, and across the planet, and yet, my situation to (some) members can’t be real to them.

SI is founded by a happily R’d couple.

I only found this place researching infidelity and it was only one of 2-3 places that mentioned that reconciliation is possible.

SI is unique in that this was the first place to ever focus on WS accountability. Which, interestingly enough, was the key to our R.

I’m real.

And I’m real happy.

Grateful for SI and all of the couples here who helped me along the way.

I’ve also encountered R’d couples who never heard of SI.

Everyone knows life is uphill, the pain is horrific after infidelity, which automatically makes R very difficult.

If two people want something bad enough, mountains can be moved.

I’ll never apologize for my path forward.

I just hope every member here finds healing on the other side of the pain, whichever path they take. R or D or something in between.

^^^^^^^^^^^

!!!!!

"R" is a very tough path to take - but it IS a choice some make. YAY! for those who do find happiness together.

And it is OK to NOT choose "R"

I just hope every member here finds healing on the other side of the pain, whichever path they take. R or D or something in between.

Same. My thinking has evolved as time has gone along being here. I believe there were times I needed to see others doing R to validate to me it was possible. My biggest fear as a ws is not knowing if all the work was going to fix our marriage. I read Bh’s secretly miserable with thei ws and it became my biggest fear.

These days, I subscribe to the idea that personal healing should always be the goal and not the outcome of the relationship. If someone heals and their spouse doesn’t (and this could be a bs or a ws) they will likely end the relationship. If both work towards that you have a shot of having two people who with more awareness to intentionally build something they can be happy in.

I agree with the OP- making flat out statements about their spouse not loving them or their family is not helpful. I can see why someone would be of that opinion, but it doesn’t help the newly betrayed navigate their situation any better. It only adds to their already infinite suffering.

Grief has stages, and while anger is a high vibrational feeling over many of the others they are all stages that are valid. A newly betrayed person lands here in denial/bargaining quite often, and they are not ready to be angry. People need time to orient themselves and all the feelings they have are valid and likely needed for them to process. Because for most, being betrayed brings up a lot of other trauma that hasn’t been dealt with and it’s overwhelming.

When we make statements like "your spouse doesn’t love you" "your marriage has been a lie", etc, whether it’s true or not is just like saying "you are stupid", when really all they want is to have their normal life back. It takes time and acceptance and work before that can even verin to happen regardless what they choose to do with the relationship itself.

At the end of the day, the best thing to remember always is we are all humans behind these screens and keyboards. We are all doing our best. We don’t need others to make blanket statements that do nothing but make us feel worse. It’s so much better to ask how they are seeing it, what are they feeling, telling them they are heard, sharing insights from one’s own journey, and just being there to listen.

In fact, you are often putting the bs in a position of defending their ws. I will say because of that I have found posting as a ws to be far easier than when I found out about my husbands affair. I just felt like I could think and say things about him but I couldn’t really bare to have someone else who didn’t know him talk about him that way, and I would then just go to defending him both here and in my mind. So I fully agree with what you are saying- it’s simply counterproductive.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:28 PM, Wednesday, December 4th]

Oldwounds and Hippo, exactly! It’s refreshing to see people who get it. Both R and D are perfectly acceptable. What isn’t is our deciding the success of each in someone else’s marriage. I’ve met bitter divorced people and bitter reconciled people as well as happy ones from each camp. One thing I’ve learned is I can’t decide whether they are happy or not. That’s their truth. I’ve heard people say "you’re not in true R"… ummm says who? One person’s R does not have to look like mine or anyone’s else’s nor does a happy life after divorce be the same. I detest when people make assumptions about other’s lives based on their own values. It’s so insulting.

[This message edited by OnTheOtherSideOfHell at 11:27 PM, Wednesday, December 4th]

It is a fact, not an opinion, that from the moment of the first deceit of an affair until the infidelity is over the marriage is a sham. If it happens before and through the marriage, the whole marriage was a lie and a sham. That's not really up for debate.

What is maybe a useful "opinion" is that the A has killed the marriage. That's not a fact, that's just an opinion.

It is a fact that an A is breaking the simplest of wedding vows regarding forsaking all others.

I think that characterizing the WS's overall behavior in some sort of "factual" manner is an overreach. Besides, good parenting is a matter of opinion in the first place. What one person calls good parenting, another will say is bad. My wife has always put my kids interests high on her priorities. The way her affair went took little to nothing from them. Not quite nothing, but close.

I think other affairs are more disruptive to parenting than others. I agree that an affair takes from more than just the BS, and reaches beyond the kids.

Thisissofine, I respectfully, but completely disagree with your stance that my marriage was ever a sham. Yes, I was being lied to and vows were broken, but his fidelity or lack thereof was only one part of what I expected from a marriage. He let me down there for sure, but not in other ways that were also important to me. I understand your opinion is different and that’s okay, but I can’t see how anyone can consider your opinion a fact anymore than mine is. My marriage, my expectations, and my needs are far more than fidelity. In all other areas my needs were not only met, but exceeded my expectations. My marriage was always real. It wasn’t a healthy l, honest union at times, but it was real. All the good, bad, ugly, and terrible.

HikingOut, your posts are always so insightful and spot on. I always find them helpful when written as both a BS and WS. Thank you.

It is a fact, not an opinion, that from the moment of the first deceit of an affair until the infidelity is over the marriage is a sham.

I agree.

I think where some of the debate comes in is for people who are working on their M after infidelity and that effort is still dismissed as a sham.

By the letter of the law, I also see OnTheOtherSideOfHell’s point — I was married for the entirety of it all, good horrific or otherwise.

It wasn’t much of a marriage for a long time, but this rebuild effort has made my M into something far better than anticipated (once healed anyway).

I think that characterizing the WS's overall behavior in some sort of "factual" manner is an overreach.

This is a fair point that doesn’t get talked about as much, at least not that I’ve seen here over the years.

It really depends on the WS as to whether the behaviors during the A were unacceptable coping mechanisms that were a temporary pattern or an overall life pattern or something in between.

Behavior during an A is remarkably similar across the board, but how a WS responds once they see the damage done, seems to be fairly unique (some WS own their choices, others deflect to varying degrees).

Well, I disagree with the gist of this OP. I know, shocker.

First of all, we have to have some basis of what is RIGHT or WRONG to start with, even if some people view it as OPINION. If the idea that cheating is wrong is taken as an opinion that is up for debate, then this site is in trouble.

The rest of this post is going to be a bunch of my thoughts on this topic that are only loosely tied together.

I think everyone is prone to cognitive dissonance and wanting others to join their club, but this includes people who are in R or trying R too. For example, 'I didn't really trust the OP' I take as cognitive dissonance by a WS trying R, and being accepted by a BS trying R as well. Also, a BS standing up for their WS on here---that also strikes me as cognitive dissonance.

People are also astoundingly predictable. Those of us who are skeptical of *what we see as a WS's attempts at R that are appearing to be lacking* (which is NOT the same as believing that R is never possible, I don't believe that R is ever 100% impossible by the way) have simply been RIGHT 99% of the time on here. The times that we have been wrong is too low for our takes to be considered opinion. (And that the BS isn't ready to hear a harsh truth, well isn't that an OPINION as well?)

Come to think of it, the only time I myself have criticized (or maybe I should say excoriated) a WS as a parent is if they take a significant block of time away from their own kids to be with AP and AP's family (seen that a time or two on here), or if the WS brings AP to the house, especially when the kids are home. But yeah, kids do need their parents even if WS or not.

ETA: I nearly forgot, jarred by ThisOIsOFine's post just below. If your WS is in an affair then YES your marriage is a sham. Certainly during the time period where they fell into the affair and even before that is debatable too. Your WS UNILATERALLY BROKE their most sacred vows to you, only you may not know it yet. You are the only person in the marriage (sorry if that is harsh to hear for some but I view that as the truth). It's a bit like hiring a bodyguard who bails on you just when you need them the most--did you ever really even have a bodyguard?

Anyway I won't be changing the way I post.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 5:59 PM, Thursday, December 5th]

marriage was ever a sham.

This is maybe a semantic argument rather than a substantive one. Where the *opinion* part is on the definition of sham on not on the actual facts.

Your marriage was purported to be an exclusive romantic relationship with your spouse (per your vows). It was not (per them being broken).

Meets the definition of sham well.

Obviously, none of us can read minds or know all the "facts" about someone else's relationship, but common sense and experience can certainly qualify people to make informed observations based on the information presented.

As for the distinction between an opinion (which is entirely subjective and may or may not be based on fact) vs informed observation, I'll put it simply;

Opinion: "Your husband is an asshole and scumbag."

Observation: "Your husband has been cheating on you since 1977 and continues to lie to you. He's been promising to change but never does. Therefore, he's not remorseful and you haven't nor can you reasonably expect to ever have an authentic relationship with him."

Opinion: "You need to dump the bitch."

Observation: "It's been 3 years since Dday. You've caught your wife breaking contact with her AP on more than one occasion and she refuses to do very easy, basic things that you told her you need in order to heal. Reconciliation isn't possible under these conditions."

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:54 PM, Friday, December 6th]

Also...

For example, many people here push back on the statement by a betrayed spouse that their WS is a good parent. They are met with "no good parent would endanger a family, etc.

The only times I've seen really heavy criticism of WSs as parents from the posters on SI was when they are neglectful of the children, forced their children (unwittingly or knowingly) into becoming accomplices in their affairs, incorporated their AP into the children's lives, or in one particularly egregious case, allowed the AP to abuse the child.

OP, perhaps your husband was able to compartmentalize his 2 lives well, spent negligible amounts of time and money on his AP, and remained a fully engaged parent even while in the throes of an affair... but for many (if not most) waywards, affairs are consuming and put considerable strain on both the marriage and parenting relationship.

Any kid whose had to go to bed without a good night kiss from Daddy because he was "working late" or whose mother won't pay attention to them because she's glued to her phone could surely attest to this.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 6:55 PM, Thursday, December 5th]

Wontbefooledagain, a huge problem I have with your opinion that cheating makes a marriage a sham is your assumption of my vows and which ones were the most sacred. An exclusive romantic relationship was never and will never be the most sacred for me. Romance ebbs and flows in most marriages. And although I do expect fidelity it’s by far not my most sacred expectation. I value other aspects of my marriage far more than fidelity. This is not to say I give him a free pass to cheat and that his doing so didn’t hurt terribly, but I can honestly say that if I could go back in time and to trade other areas of my marriage that were and always have been good for him not to cheat, I’d choose the cheating. Don’t get me wrong, I believe cheating is terrible, shitty, and hurtful behavior, I just don’t see it as negating the marriage and what good it had.

To explain my views a little clearer, I view marriage as a business venture with someone that you ideally love and enjoy. If a business partner embezzles money from our business I have many options. I can sue, bring charges against him, demand he repay the company, etc..: I can then choose to buy him out of his half or choose to forgive and move on . (Yes, I’ve seen business partners do this especially in family businesses). Regardless of what the offending partner did to the business, it was still a business. The betrayal by one does not negate it.

This is why it is always said here, "take what you need and leave the rest." What infidelity means to one does not for another. IMO infidelity does negate the M. In fact to me it's null and void, either a new M is created or your stuck with the crappy one or D (my opinion of course just as yours is the exact opposite of mine).

Crazy blindsided, I completely understand and respect your opinion and appreciate you realizing it’s your opinion or belief, but not some absolute, universal fact.

** Member to Member **

I have some pretty strong memories, WBFA, that you have ignored some statements that don't fit your worldview. All we ever have from any member is a few words on an anonymous website forum; that's not a lot of evidence. Ignoring evidence is about the only way I can think of to be correct about human behavior 99% of the time, especially on something as variable as paths and timelines after infidelity. You keep saying you've been right 99% of the time. That's a fact. I'm skeptical. You should be, too. The last 2 sentences are opinions.

IMO, about the only facts we have are about our own experience, but even those facts can be shaky. I know what I did on and after d-day, for example. I'm extremely confident that I know some of my motivations for my actions. I also know that human beings hide a lot from their consciousness, so I'm also very confident that I don't know all the motivations, and I'm confident that I might be missing something significant. This whole paragraph is opinion.

I'm confident that our R is successful. It's a fact that I'm confident; it's an opinion that R is successful. I also know I could be wrong - my W could be fooling me. That I could be wrong about our R is a fact, too.

Some people project their values onto others, not realizing that other people have different views. In fact, my home state used to delegate M law to religious authorities. The Catholic Church controlled M between Catholics, rabbis controlled M between Jews, etc., etc., etc. It's a big mistake to assume that what one knows applies to everyone; there will always be a large number of people who have different values from a poster's.

I think all BSes on SI think extra-M sex is 'wrong'. So what? People cheat. Dwelling on the right/wrong of infidelity is a trap - it keeps one in infidelity rather than healing. We have to play the cards we're dealt. (And don't make the mistake of thinking every culture thinks extra-M sex is wrong. I once lived in a place where fidelity was not necessarily part of the M contract. It was for Christians, but not for Buddhists, Muslims, or other religions on the island. One friend kept throwing beautiful young women at me when we were out together, and he couldn't understand why I wouldn't take them to bed even though he was paying.)

OnTheOtherSideOfHell says they view M as more than fidelity. I do, too. I assumed sexual fidelity was part of the M contract between my W and me, but I was wrong. It was a requirement for R, but that's only part of what I required.

Willy S said it best: 'There are more things in heaven and earth ... than are dreamt of in your philosophy.' IMO it's crucial to keep that in mind because first, we may not know what we think we know and second, it's almost certain that there are people who think they know the opposite.

WBFA-

On the ws trusting the ap-

You are of course welcome to choose to believe what you want about that aspect. In reality, I am not sure it makes a huge difference either way.

Let me explain- if someone is out having an affair and lying to you, sleeping with someone else, likely neglecting you and throwing you under the bus, whether they trusted the person they are doing it with doesn’t seem like an argument for or against reconciliation. So I am not sure why that one seems to come up over and over.

It’s not that important to me if you believe it’s possible or not. I don’t think it once came up as a discussion with my husband.

However, I had a 3 day physical affair in the middle point of a two month long distance emotional affair. It’s very difficult for me to say trust could be built that quickly. I think most anything I did honestly was a throw caution to the wind mentality.

Was it stupid to go into a hotel room alone with someone I marginally knew? Terribly. He could have murdered me, raped me, robbed me, stapled my eyelids open, etc. It never once occurred to me. Blinded by my own stupidity, I did a lot of things in the affair that a logically thinking person building a real relationship would never do. I think often ws are focused on what we want to feel rather than anything that makes good sense.

You are not capable of that line of thinking, and that is a good thing. Being black and white can serve an individual very well. I myself have become a black and white thinker.

I will second what Othersideofhell is saying about prioritizing different values than another person. There are things that are important to other people that aren’t as important to me. And that too is okay. If you can feel happy with your own decisions and logic behind them then you will always do well for yourself. I personally will never accept lying in my relationship ever again - honesty is probably my biggest non negotiable. And it’s for that reason that sometimes I bristle at this whole ongoing argument about trust in the Ap. I had trust in the circumstances rather than him. thats Honest and I feel I have worked through my cognitive dissonance when it comes to an affair.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:22 PM, Friday, December 6th]

Bluer than blue- agree. Sometimes the bs IS explaining too much away. The way you are phrasing things more constructively is a good illustration.

I realize what happens is really some people on this site are so outraged for the bs, but using the lens of their own situation to fill in the blanks. I simply agree with the OP that there are non constructive statements that can be very hurtful to a new bs not far enough out to be able to take it yet.