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Nearly a year since I found out but it went on for about two months after I kicked him out despite being very up and down things seemed a bit better. She is really young. He is one of the managers in this very small firm. I thought he had put good boundaries in place with her.He told me she hates him, they barely communicate as she thought it was going to be much more and made plans for that. Anyway I found out that he called her and they had about half an hour chat. they didn’t sound as if they hated each other but no references to meeting up. I heard him talking to her. He deleted the recording and insists they are only this way for work and most of the conversation was about work. He deleted the call log I know he deletes text messages. He won’t show me his phone as in the heat of the argument I tried to call her and she answered. He keeps saying he has done nothing wrong. He is now saying if I want him too he will change office locations which I have wanted all year. He is adamant that he has not had time to be with her as he works from home most days. Am I just being really unreasonable and this is part of them working together. I hate doing this in front of the kids but get so angry.

[This message edited by Lemonpie at 2:56 PM, Tuesday, January 16th]

You are not at all being unreasonable. That continued contact continues the affair. And, that he’s being secretive about it isn’t recovery.

Could you clarify the timeline?
I went through your older posts: After d-day he moved out and openly was with her for a couple of months. Then he came back.
This discovery of ongoing communications – is that recently or back at the time of d-day?

I also have some questions like:
Is he an owner in the company or a manager?
Is she in any way his subordinate?
Is the management level above him aware of the affair?
Is he still drinking (as you have mentioned it is a problem)?

Friend – I hate shooting down hope, and don’t take this next post as me doing that. What I hate even more than shooting down hope is encouraging people as they drive towards a precipice, and that’s what I see here…

The reason he drinks, the reason he is still in contact with her beyond what is reasonable for work, the reason he huffs and puffs and threatens, the reason he emotionally subdues your needs and requirements… Is because he can.
It’s also because you allow it…

This won’t change unless and until his cost of his actions becomes excessive compared to what he’s losing. The moment you give him freedom to be a sad, stereotypical, single, drunk middle aged manager dating the new floozy at work is the moment you get the power to move on. It then becomes his issue on if he wants to remain the sad, stereotypical, single, drunk middle aged manager, or if he wants to step up and become the father and husband your family deserves.
That freedom is not the freedom to do so at YOUR cost. His freedom comes at the cost of YOU taking back YOUR power and moving on out of infidelity.

Out of infidelity? Yes – because he is still having an affair with her. The friendly conversations and all that clearly say he is.

Thank you both, he wasn’t openly with her during that two months. He was lying and told me he wasn’t I just kept finding out that he would slip up and see her. I guess working with her is too hard. He also said it was my fault as I told his family who turned against him and he had nowhere else to go. He stayed with her for about two weeks and then I went to be closer to my family.

The latest half hour call with her was just yesterday. He is a part owner in the firm and he cannot get her to leave because he has acted inappropriately. He can move office and since I threatened divorce yesterday as I said that It was clear he cannot work with her even if it is just one day a week he has to move offices. He is now doing this, just annoyed me it has taken a

My behaviour is awful. And I was shouting at him even though I really didn’t want to do that. However, although changing offices I just feel so hurt that it always takes something like this to happen.

He would lose out massively financially and I would want to move back to my parents which means seeing the kids a lot less and they are all very young.

[This message edited by Lemonpie at 2:57 PM, Tuesday, January 16th]

Lemonpie, if your dear friend was talking to you and repeated this story, what advice would you give them?

He physically assaulted you IN FRONT OF YOUR SMALL CHILDREN to erase evidence of his continuing cheating, too.

Him saying you traumatized him by recording the conversation is typical DARVO behavior. Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. You recording him traumatized him, but he felt no issue with physically assaulting you IN FRONT OF YOUR SMALL CHILDREN. Who should be traumatized?

As long as there is a possibility of contact, the A is still going on.

The affair hasn't ended. You've caught him with her several times. He deletes his texts, calls her for lengthy talks,deleted the call log,and deleted the tape,so you couldn't hear it all.

He has zero remorse. He's treating you terribly. His actions are one of a man who took the affair underground. Also..child support would be a huge cost for him. So there is his incentive.

And..HE is traumatized by the VAR, because that's how he was caught cheating? That has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. The audacity of this man!

I don't mean to pile on, but I notice that he says she hates him, and you say the call didn't sound like she hates him. That means, IMO, he continues to lie to you. You can't R with someone who lies.

Remember: a person can betray emotionally as well as physically. Continued contact with a former ap means the A continues.

And remember: he's choosing to cheat for his own reasons, not because of anything you did or didn't do.

Thanks all! He was crying when I got home, doesn’t want to get divorced and has emailed his boss about moving jobs. Anyway we shall see. Sometimes I wish I just left when it all came out. My emotions are a rollercoaster, I just feel sorry for my kids. I wish I could regulate myself better for their sake.

He physically assaulted you in front of the kids. Any consequences there?

His tears are manipulation. He's been caught. Again.

Changing jobs is ok. But the problem is him. Not the job. Not her. Him. Until he works on himself, takes responsibility, stops lying,and finds remorse, he is very much a ws.

Ms. Pie, please listen to what these good people are telling you. This man is lying and manipulating you. Don't waste any more of your very precious time trying to believe his lies. You know deep inside what is happening and what you need to do.

We are all here for you.

He’s your standard run of the mill cheater. He’s an extra special snowflake b/c he lies to you, continues to disrespect you, doesn’t have boundaries, physically fights with you in front of your kids to keep you from hearing the truth, and then cries and makes promises to you in an effort to appease you.

Please stop making excuses for him.

The OW should not be working with him or for him. Period. He doesn’t want to fire her b/c he wants to continue to have two women fighting over him.

Please see this continued behavior for what it is.

He wants his own way. He wants the affair to continue for whatever reason he has. You are not his first priority. HE is his first priority.

Stop listening to his words and focus on his actions. They will tell you everything. And right now his words and actions do not match up.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 2:14 PM, Sunday, January 14th]

The year my wife still worked with, but had minimal contact with, her AP was basically just limbo and a slow spiral towards asking for a D.

New job is basically a necessity. Everyone thinks their financial case makes it worth the effort. It is not.

Thank you. I think I rationalised them working together with 1. He hardly ever sees her and what 2. would be in it for her. I think he had plans to leave me. When I did eventually catch him and I went absolutely crazy and told everyone as there was so much gaslighting before hand I was headed for a breakdown . I told even Radom people who asked me if I was ok as I was crying so much.

The Mc has all been about how traumatising it has been for both of us as he was cut off from everyone and he keeps putting that back on me. I destroyed all his relationships which he has gotten back now with his family but still very awkward . She talks about his betrayal and my betrayal too. I never told his work which is a big part of his social circle.

I think where my behaviour is awful is I feel I am constantly making horrible comments and I had gotten much better . Very occasionally I lose it where I shout and swear. I think I need to be more in control for my kids as they got stuck in the middle of this. I don’t think the affair is still ongoing as what would be in it for her. She would barely see him. I also talk too much to people which was a real issue for him which led to him taking my phone and reading my messages.

Sometimes

I wonder what keeps me here. He has made a lot of changes to how he treats me, he is trying to cut down on the drinking. He is a much better father recently. He keeps saying he has made all these changes and I have made none.

[This message edited by Lemonpie at 2:58 PM, Tuesday, January 16th]

Others may have another opinion so take this with a grain of salt

I would fire that marriage Counsellor. She seems truly awful

If you feel as though there is some things you would like to work on with anger issues and dealing better in front of the kids that is for Individual counselling. Do you have your own counsellor? With all of the gaslighting he did it would probably be a good idea to get one that deals with betrayal trauma.

I’m also of the opinion that you shouldn’t continue with the marriage counselor. Their job is to reconcile the marriage, and more often than not, that means putting fault on both of you. The MC sounds pretty terrible.

I’m sorry, but once physical assault is involved, it makes me worried for you. Please don’t let your children grow up thinking this is ok. The changes he’s making are the bare minimum.

[This message edited by Forks027 at 11:27 AM, Sunday, January 14th]

The MC is really helpful. I don’t think I have done it justice and I get why she recommended this as we can both be a little bit fiery.I am hoping now that he has told others he is changing offices this might help and lessen some of the triggers for me

A bad mc and an unremorseful WS will cause you more trauma. She is basically equating his affair to you speaking your truth. If anyone is upset with him, that's a consequence of his actions. Period.

And,having just caught him with OW again, the mc thinks a reasonable boundary is to not look at each other's phones?? Your husband must love the mc! She has just given him the ability to continue to cheat,without transparency.

Fire this person. Immediately. You will never heal with this mc.

The affair continues. Whats in it for her? Everything. He's still telling her everything she wants to hear. She gets to see him at work. They talk and message on the phone. He's probably telling her he has to stay,or you will keep the child from him and he sleeps on the couch. That's a standard lie cheaters tell their ow.

So what if she doesn't see him much, aside from the work day? There are long distance,and online relationships..and those people never see each other. Lots of women have affairs with husbands who can't spend a lot of time with them.

Also..he is not traumatized. He is not shocked. He is not upset that you are upset. He has known all along what he's been doing. Can't be shocked over your own,continued, behavior. He's upset that you won't let it go. Which doesn't mean a damn thing.

Any continued contact is like death to your marriage. Please know that.

As others stated you really don’t know what they talk about and you would be surprised at how the cheaters lie.

My H told me he ended the affair b/c he realized his mistakes. Shocked to learn the OW sent me the email he wrote her. And in his email he wrote how he was needed by his kids blah blah blah. Nothing about deciding to stay happily married or affair was a mistake. He claims he only write it so she would not contact me and tell me about the affair blah blah blah.

Please don’t remain in limbo. Living with your marriage in limbo is like living in hell. And as it gets stated it adds more pain and trauma to your life.

She talks about his betrayal and my betrayal too.

Just to clarify--your betrayal of him was exposing his affair to his family and friends? Meaning that you didn't do the *honorable* thing, and keep it a secret?

I know this is just a snippet from all of your counseling sessions, but it is an issue like this that changes the whole trajectory of where the marriage should be going. I have no doubt that your WH views himself as a victim of your 'betrayal'. The amount of effort that will be needed to change this mindset is huge.

He was a *victim* before he went into MC. The counselor just solidified it. Please don't take this too lightly. I am sure that you have plenty of faults....many that you are aware of and need/want to change. Allowing him to keep any sort of victim status should not be one of them.

But, the one thing that you DO have is your agency. You are aware of what he has done, and is doing. In that respect, you are not powerless. You get to decide if it is worth continuing on this current path, or changing it.

Thank you all! It has helped to vent here. Yeah he massively sees what I did as as a betrayal as I told people also about the way, I felt he was treating me leading up to it. He feels that I painted myself into a victim and aired all our dirty laundry which I get but I honestly wasn’t in a good place. Anyway, he is treating me a lot better.

Well at least it looks like he is following through with moving offices, which means he won’t see her anymore. I think people were right and I need to enforce stricter boundaries. I will wait and see if other changes are made. The Mc uses looks at our negative cycles which I get we have and I contribute to. He loves his kids so much but I do get that I don’t trust him and he thinks I should because he has made these changes. I think he thinks I want to punish him forever for something he can’t take back or change