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I think most people here will agree with me that it is objectively wrong to engage an escort/prostitute. But what if you ask them for photos and masturbate to their photos, without actually engaging their physical services? Do you think that is acceptable?

Let's assume that no boundaries were discussed yet. And you need to now set the boundaries.

(Edit: For context as to why i am asking this question, read below)

[This message edited by scrambledeggs at 11:56 AM, Thursday, October 5th]

No I don’t think it’s acceptable. It is a hard boundary for me.

Can he explain why he thinks it is acceptable? Is it because he is paying for the images? Does he feel you can buy consent? Does he realise that many of the women are trafficked or abused by partners or pimps? Others suffer ptsd from being abused by Johns.

The answers regarding consent and abuse would be what I was looking at. I want to know his beliefs and I would act curious until he explained. I wouldn’t want him to tone down his feelings and beliefs until he had fully explained them.

If he believes he can purchase consent then that would make me think very hard about his values. I would not state my opinion until I fully understood his. This would be an important conversation to me and a deal breaker.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Let me share with you the context.

First occasion: I found out that he was on forums where pimps post photos of escorts to "advertise" them. He said that he saw those photos purely as "masturbation content" and was using them to masturbate. I told him that while i understand masturbation is normal/healthy, i am only ok with masturbation to traditional/typical porn (like those on pornhub where you cannot contact the person in the video). i am not okay with the interaction/engagement he has with real life people, because it feels like there's a 3rd party involved in our relationship and the risk of him taking the next step to actually engage physical services is too high.) He apologised, understood my POV, and we moved on.

Second occasion: Caught him doing the same thing, this time messaging an escort who put her contact number down on the forum that's advertising sexual services. I saw the conversation and it was him asking for photos (escorts tend to send these "introductory" photos to prove that they are real). They did not meet up. He claimed that he was bored of the other existing photos on the forums as they are old and he has seen them before, and he needed new content to masturbate to. This was too much for me, so we went to see a therapist. After a lot of conversations, we learnt that he has an addiction to masturbation. He admitted to this addiction. He tends to masturbate when he is feeling down/stressed/anything negative, as masturbation gives him a temporary euphoria that drowns away his negative feelings. He agreed that masturbation is an unhealthy coping mechanism for both himself and for the relationship. I decided to forgive and stay because i thought his addiction had clouded his mind and i wanted to support him through this mental issue.

His addiction to masturbation is similar to addiction to alcohol/gambling/etc. It is not possible to recover overnight and it's a long and difficult recovery process. He told me that he will block all porn sites on his phone and laptop and go cold turkey as he is also determined to stop this addiction. He did block them all, and only I have the password to unlock it. His phone/laptop history is also tracked (and cannot be cleared) so that i will know if he has a relapse.

Just a few days ago, I found out that he messaged another escort asking for a photo. Apparently the escort messaged those geographically nearby to advertise her services (this function is true for wechat app). I asked him why he did it. He said that we were arguing badly then and he was just feeling so so down. It was a relapse and he once again wanted to turn to masturbation to get rid of these feelings. He couldnt masturbate to normal porn because he practically had no access to porn materials (all blocked), and the opportunity came up when this escort messaged him.

There are many more pieces of information here and there, but this post is so long already. I'll answer them if whoever is reading this has questions. But all in all im so lost and confused. Because on one hand i am so hurt that he doesnt respect my boundaries (i.e. no escorts should be involved in any way), but on the other hand he has this addiction that is also clouding his judgement/choices/behaviour and takes time to recover from.

If he is a sex addict (SA) he needs a program designed specifically for that. Others with more experience will hopefully come along and lay that out for you. Cold Turkey is likely not going to work.

If he is truly an addict, he will continue to violate your boundaries until he is working a program. He's not doing it TO you, he's doing it in spite of you (and the harm that will come to him if he doesn't stop).

What really matters here is how sustainable this marriage is in it's current form. He may have a psychological problem but that doesn't mean you have to take it in the teeth every day. That's no way to live. He will violate your boundaries. The question is, will you violate your boundaries? In other words, what steps are prepared to take to protect YOUR health and well being?

The answer to that is difficult and will vary. Perhaps you want to stand by him while he works this out. Ok then, start defining what "working this out" means and tell him what you expect. E.g. an SA specialist, a 12 step program and accountability partner, etc. Whatever will make you feel like he is committed to change.

You may decide you need space and a temp separation to get your head clear, protect yourself from further harm and give him space to do his own work.

There are a bunch of options really.

Just know that you cannot change him. His loving you will not change him. You loving him harder will not change him. You can only control you.

One last thing: while change has to come from within, most people won't change until they are uncomfortable. If you keep giving more chances, don't ask for what you need to feel safe, he will remain comfortable thinking he has infinite chances to get right with you. Set your limit. Honor yourself by demanding to be treated with respect and love.

what if you ask them for photos and masturbate to their photos, without actually engaging their physical services? Do you think that is acceptable?

Your husband is not contacting hookers just to fap to their photos. As you pointed out, there is an abundance of online pornography if that was his thing.

He’s messaging these women because he wants to or is already using their "physical services."

As a next step, you need to get tested for STDs and go through your finances with a fine-tooth comb. You should also run a credit check on him as well.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 6:16 PM, Thursday, October 5th]

I dont' know, I don't' think you need to spell out every boundary in order to know that some stuff was clearly not acceptable and a giant boundary breach. I think if you are going to be able to successfully R with someone you need to be able to trust them. He is still lying and hiding things from you, so obviously he cannot be trusted. I also think that at a certain point, it doesn't matter WHY he is hurting you, all that matters is that he is. You do not owe him this sort of patience. A porn or sex addiction doesn't change this. At a certain point you need to take care of yourself.

Please keep in mind that I don't have experience in the particular arena of sex or porn addiction, so take this for what its worth.

He said that he saw those photos purely as "masturbation content" and was using them to masturbate. I told him that while i understand masturbation is normal/healthy, i am only ok with masturbation to traditional/typical porn (like those on pornhub where you cannot contact the person in the video). i am not okay with the interaction/engagement he has with real life people, because it feels like there's a 3rd party involved in our relationship and the risk of him taking the next step to actually engage physical services is too high.) He apologised, understood my POV, and we moved on.

He told me that he will block all porn sites on his phone and laptop and go cold turkey as he is also determined to stop this addiction. He did block them all, and only I have the password to unlock it. His phone/laptop history is also tracked (and cannot be cleared) so that i will know if he has a relapse.

I'm trying to square these two quoted statements. Why is something like Pornhub blocked if that is not the problem?

He couldnt masturbate to normal porn because he practically had no access to porn materials (all blocked), and the opportunity came up when this escort messaged him.

I mean, it seems to me that this is a situation where everything is blocked it does seem actually like that was the only option he had. I'm not defending his not respecting your boundary but rather pointing out how what he did is at least a rational behavior. Honestly, it seems as though this a problem of his own design by blocking access to traditional pornographic material and perhaps re-evaluating that is in order.

I'm trying to square these two quoted statements. Why is something like Pornhub blocked if that is not the problem?

He wanted to help with my initial healing process by cutting out porn completely, whether it's traditional or controversial porn, so that I won't need to worry at all. He said that he will just stop masturbating completely, and learn to turn to healthier coping mechanisms when he needs the "feel good" factor.

I'm not defending his not respecting your boundary but rather pointing out how what he did is at least a rational behavior.

A part of me feels the same way, which is why I am still in this relationship and has not left yet. But staying is obviously still tough because right now I don't know if he went back to messaging escorts because he had no other options or because it was his first option.

He's not doing it TO you, he's doing it in spite of you (and the harm that will come to him if he doesn't stop).

Thank you for this statement. I am obviously hurt by his choices, and often question his love for me - wondering why he would do this if he loves me. "He wouldnt' do it if he loved me." On one hand I know that this is ultimately still an addiction and it controls him. But at the same time, a part of me wished he had greater discipline and determination to fight these urges. I guess it takes time for this discipline and determination to be built, practiced through experience. My dilemma will then be - am I staying to help him through this and for how long?

One last thing: while change has to come from within, most people won't change until they are uncomfortable. If you keep giving more chances

Thank you, again, for this statement. I will bring this up with him and ask how this situation has made him uncomfortable. And hopefully gain some insights from that.

While it's not outside the realm of possibility that your WH is telling the truth, it's concerning that he's contacting local prostitutes. That tells us that even if he's not actively using their services, there's at least a bonus high for him knowing that he could. IOW, there's an element of risky behavior giving the whole thing spice. If it was just about masturbation, he could be seeking anywhere, right? Not to be paranoid, but have you ever considered asking him for a polygraph in order to make sure he hasn't gone further than he's said?

He said that we were arguing badly then and he was just feeling so so down.

What he's saying in essence is that his fidelity is contingent on your behavior. That an abdication of responsibility. He's either an adult who is willing to adhere to his own values system or he's not. You're not his boss, his warden, or his mommy, right?

If he's going to cry SA, he needs to be working a program. It's not fair to you to try and turn you into his accountability system.

even if he's not actively using their services, there's at least a bonus high for him knowing that he could

yes i agree with this. i sat him down to ask why he preferred masturbating to escorts over traditional porn, if he had a fetish or some sort that he's not telling me. he explained that "preferred" is not the right word to use. he was just bored of traditional porn and wanted to get off to something different, so it's not that he prefers one to the other. and in the past before i set my boundaries, he saw videos of escorts and videos on pornhub the same way - they are just porn content. in the most recent case, he went to escorts again (despite me telling him i dont like it) because he had no access to traditional porn. with this addiction, he just really really wanted the physical release and photos from escorts was just a tool for him to achieve that. but to be honest idk if i believe that.

What he's saying in essence is that his fidelity is contingent on your behavior. That an abdication of responsibility.

He did say that he knows what he did was wrong and he should have stopped the urge right at the start before it grew bigger. He explained to me that he's not saying it's my fault in any way that this happened, but was just trying to explain the circumstances and what went through his mind at that point in time. He said: We argued badly and he was feeling really low, tried to distract himself with some TV and work but it didnt work, wanted to masturbate but there was no porn available which made him even more frustrated. Then the opportunity came up with the escort and he just took it. once again, i just wish he had more determination and discipline to stop himself. but i dont have an addiction so i really dont know how possible/difficult it is realistically. especially when it hasnt been that long since the discovery or realisation of this addiction.

[This message edited by scrambledeggs at 5:08 AM, Friday, October 6th]

There's escort porn that looks real. Hell, there are several categories for it..real encounters with prostitutes. No film crew. Just the John filming the escort himself.

That he is telling you he found traditional porn boring is absolutely a lie.

He got caught an the site,and this is the lie he's telling you.

He's showing you he doesn't care how you feel about it, he will do it anyway.

Was he diagnosed by a CSAT? Only they can diagnose sex addiction.

If he needed to get off, porn isn't a needed tool. He has an imagination. He has you.

At first, I’m guessing he was content with the "traditional" on generic porn-sites (I will get back to that…), then he was content with the free pics in the forums. Then he needed local forums and then the extra freebies…

Yes – this does sound like addictive behavior. I hesitate to call it a sexual addiction – yet – although I am open to this possibly being one. Problem with addiction is that the treatment is quite drastic and doesn’t leave much leeway to have a "small" beer or only look at (as per his definition) "traditional" porn online.
I would look into a professional evaluation of his causes – this could be misplaced/wrong behavior that can be amended, or it could be an addiction (SA) that requires a lifetime treatment. I would HOPE the former, but fear the later.

What is also clear in his behavior is that it’s getting more and more intense. Like an addiction – only steal an occasional beer, followed with binge-drinking, followed by snorting speed, followed by shooting horse… At some point the free pics won’t cut it for him. What is the next logical step other than direct contact with these prostitutes?

Stress relief is important. The physical results of an orgasm does provide stress relief. But so does jogging, meditation, exercise, feeling appreciated, heck… having a beer or two, fishing, golf…

--
I have issues with porn… Too much of it is from an unethical base. Yes – nowadays these sites check that the "actors" are over 18 and they all sign disclosure agreements, but the age of "classic" porn-stars is long gone, with a neverending plethora of young women (and probably young men too) is doing 2-5 scenes before being disposed of by the new young "barely 18" who agrees to do anal and direct-to-mouth, bukkake and gang-bang because the extra 500 bucks added to the standard rate will get her that extra 2 days of Oxy or coke. Then you have all the consumers that think this is what sex is supposed to be and don’t understand why their partner doesn’t moan and scream like a cat in heat and doesn’t appreciate having a baseball bat shoved up their poop-hole…
Same with prostitution. Their pimps? Guess who gets a minimum of 20% of whatever money these women generate?

Yes – I know there are exceptions. There are ethical porn-makers and women that chose to be hookers and all that. But I venture that about 10 out of 10 of these women sending your husband pictures via their pimp would rather be teachers or nurses or doctors or accountants or whatever.

If he's using masturbation as a stress relief - one can masturbate without porn.

Hi everyone, thank you for your responses thus far. There are many nuggets of useful advice here and there that i really appreciate and will accept.

Yes i know that there are "escort porn" materials on traditional porn sites. Yes i know you can masturbate without porn at all. Yes i know there are other ways of stress relief beyond masturbation. But thats the reason why i am here. Because he chose and did otherwise and i am hurt. I wouldnt be here if i thought that what he did is correct. I, like all other victims here, feel betrayed and am trying to move forward.

Was he diagnosed by a CSAT? Only they can diagnose sex addiction.

Thank you for this. I have found a CSAT near us and will have him arrange a session for us. Beyond diagnosing, i also hope the CSAT can give us tips on how to move forward.

So sorry you are experiencing this. You are hurt and traumatized and it is totally understandable. Hang in there and don’t let anyone minimize what you are going through. You have a lot to sort through and you have the right to your feelings, your hurts, your hopes, your quest for information … all of it.

I am going to tell you a little about my story and I promise there will be a point to it :). I’m also telling you so you won’t feel alone because I know that having a sex addicted partner can feel VERY lonely and isolating, even in the infidelity community.

I am about 11 months from D-day. After D-day, my husband realized he was a sex addict. He is working a 12 step program, is in an 18 month out patient program, and has a therapist he sees every other week. He has given up masturbation and porn entirely. This is what sobriety looks like for him, and I honor and trust his decision on this. Your husband will have to decide for himself what sobriety looks like for him, and it sounds like his definition is similar.

I believe my husband is truly sober because of the drastic change in his personality. Like your husband, my husband was seeking dopamine hits and the fix was getting harder and harder to obtain. (I say "like your husband" because of your husband’s statement about being "bored" and needing different images / interaction.) Since getting sober, my husband’s brain chemistry has changed dramatically and I can actually SEE it on the outside … in how well he can focus, in how he can empathize again, in how he interacts with me sexually, and even in his posture and the way he carries himself. I am telling you this so you can consider what to look for as you walk this journey.

Early on, before my husband admitted to his addiction, he gave up porn for several weeks. One day, he masturbated to it, and I just KNEW. I looked at him as we were talking and took note of how petulant he was acting, how he was slouching in his chair, and I said, "Holy shit - you are so different right now. You used porn didn’t you?" He admitted he did, and let’s just say it was a light bulb moment for us both.

There is currently a lot of work being done regarding the unique trauma that comes with being the partner of a sex addict. It’s a kind of abuse that often spans many years. I strongly recommend listening to Dr. Minwalla’s analogy of the "secret sexual basement." His work focuses on the trauma of the partner and helping the addict understand the damage that has been done. His podcasts are so affirming … highly recommend them if you haven’t already gotten there on your own! My husband got a lot out of the book Dopamine Nation and it might be something helpful for your husband to read, if he hasn’t already.

This is difficult to go through and there will be many people who will, unfortunately, just not get it. And there will be those that become extremely defensive about even the idea of no porn or masturbation (probably due to their own unresolved issues). Porn and male entitlement around sexuality have become extremely normalized. But, there is no shame in trying to help your husband while at the same time having boundaries and deal breakers. You love him and you want to see him well. I’ve actually said to my husband, "I have no idea if we’ll last or not, but even if I leave I love you and want to see you well." Many won’t understand but even that gets easier as you walk your walk. Meh … just do what you heart and head tell you to do.

One last note … there is an outdated notion still out there that partners of sex addicts are "co-addicts" and/or codependent. I don’t buy into that and the whole idea is losing validity. Dr. Minwalla touches on this as well and is worth a listen.

Hang in there and many hugs and prayers heading your way.

hi ForestFirePine, i would really like to thank you for your post. it feels really good to know that i am not the only one going through this situation, and it gives me a tremendous amount of hope to see that it is possible to move forward from this. like you said, many people just dont get it and i am so glad you do. this is the exact reason why i shared my story here and was what i was hoping to get.

I am so glad.

Sorry it took me so long to respond. LOL … couldn’t find the post to see how you are doing. I’ve been on here since December and still trying to figure out how to navigate the site!

I hope you are doing okay. Keep posting!