SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Well, that two year and seven day relationship is over. It's sad how patterns of behavior creep into a relationship until one time too many takes its toll. She was a good one but I also have to acknowledge the red flags and differences that were there all along. Me touchy feely her not at all. Me wanting to grow closer through things like Gottman relationship cards her no way. My issues from the infidelity in the second marriage her with issues from three husbands.

Early in the relationship I had suggested the weekly Gottman State of the Union meetings. I saw it as something I needed to stay ahead of issues in a healthy manner. She's not the relationshippy type in that regard so we didn't do it. I think I've been harboring a growing resentment over some basic relationship stuff that manifested itself with anger and contempt. Not good. Just the example from the other thread a few weeks back, not letting me know she arrived at her daughters, is so simple but it hurt too. I've had this growing feeling on not being important to her. I've become hyper-sensitive to stuff and yep, I would lash out.

Last week she was out of town at a business event and pretty good about letting me know she was ubering and all. I know she was busy and preoccupied and I was trying to give her space. The final day we texted a few times throughout day. In that spirit of the building feelings of not being important to her I haven't historically gotten a lot of effort on her end showing interest, let's call it - she would do it, but it more often than not was focused on her life. she's routinely very preoccupied with work, her kids her high maintenance been friend, and family. My life is much simpler. The final night after no effort to ask how I was, or a "what's going on? She let me know she was going to dinner and how tired she was followed by text a few hours later letting me know she was back and how tired she was. It just struck me wrong, of all the things to text at the end of the day a reiteration of how tired she was. I really just needed a bit toward connection to ask how was I? It's been almost non-existent lately. And off we went to the races...

So as good as we were, we weren't. I'm in full on post relationship mode. Of the things I'm writing down of why the break up is a good thing I'm seeing things like lack of emotional intimacy, workaholic, addictions to Tik Tok and searches of French Provincial furniture, marriage phobic, all the basic courtesy stuff, routine quotes from any one of her three husbands her really high maintenance bff who she has to go to her house out of state monthly to help manage her friends life... even not talking with me or telling me we were moving in together at the end of her current lease. Prior to this when she renewed her lease she had told me she needed to be in her own place, which hurt because it really placed question in my mind about the future of the relationship - but ok - I respect that. and on and on. It's been alot.

And as I write this, I have to acknowledge all my own issues. Not coping well with growing resentment, I could have been more forgiving and handled our issues differently to include softer start ups. But we were just floating down the relationship path. We weren't dealing with core issues, we only dealt with the symptoms not the cause it all just built up. And maybe I'm making more out all "the issues" to protect myself from the fear of being hurt given all the things I've written about both on my list and here and other posts.

Oh well.

[This message edited by Kintsugi at 8:43 PM, Tuesday, November 1st]

FWIW I totally get where you’re coming from. You just want to see some emotional effort on her part. To know that you have some emotional significance in her life. I’m getting ready to end a ten plus year friendship because of it.

You’re entitled to feel what you feel and get what you need from a relationship. Life is way too short to settle.

Kintsugi, I'm sorry that you are hurting, very understandable. From what you had posted previously just recently, it was clear to me that you wanted that relationship with her more than she wanted that kind of relationship - pehaps with anyone. Sounds like my dating history, where you got more emotionally invested than she did.

The other possibility - and I hate to mention this - is that she might have been a two-timer. My brother has a longtime lady friend who we understood was married for years while she snuck off to see my brother, her old high school pal, even though they live in different states. She always had a "friend" to go visit, that was her getaway excuse. He had just gone through a divorce after his wife of 24 years left him for a guy she met at work, and he found the old classmate on the website with the same name. This has been going on now for 20 years, and I don't know her current marital status, but if she is still married, I feel sorry for that man! My brother doesn't really want to marry again, I don't think, so "it works for him" but that isn't the healthiest relationship.

There are brighter days ahead for you, I feel sure. Sorry that you feel you wasted the time. She gave you some things along the way, right?

Edited for typo.

[This message edited by Superesse at 4:04 PM, Tuesday, October 11th]

FWIW I totally get where you’re coming from. You just want to see some emotional effort on her part. To know that you have some emotional significance in her life.

Thanks, this nails it. Maybe about a year ago when we were dealing with an issue of conflict I told her I needed to connect with her on a deeper level; so we could understand each other better and not just feel like we're going through the motions on a day to day basis. That's not to say she didn't do this from time to time with things like an "I love you" but it just seem to always be the bare minimum. In our recent anniversay with a nice card with words from the card (not much written other than an Ilive you) that life was perfect together and in the break up I think I got the most from her in a really long time with a "you mean the world to me and I/she would do anything for you/me if you/me needed me/her". Rather sad in the sense of what I've been asking - that we finally sit down a hash through our issues. This she won't do.

Kintsugi - I responded to your old thread about a year ago or so. I come across as crusty at times but what I wrote then is just as applicable today. Here is what I said in your other thread:

Kintsugi you're an appliance to her. She gets you down off the shelf when needed and puts you back when unneeded.

At family and friend gatherings you don't leave the dirty mixing bowl out on the counter. You put it back on the shelf and close the cabinet doors so it's out of sight.

Just based on the history you've given, she's treated every man in her life in such a fashion... an appliance to be used as she sees fit.

When you get tired of being an appliance you will figure out that the two of you are not compatible and you will move on.

I'm sorry for you but glad to see that you are moving on.

Before getting with her did you consider that anyone with three ex husbands might not be the best relationship material? And, statistically, based on studies, the chances of having a lasting relationship with someone who was married and divorced three times is in the single digits.

Sounds like my dating history, where you got more emotionally invested than she did.

Most definitely I was more emotionally invested, that was evident to me during the relationship, and it all came to a head. It's who I am and I wouldn't change it.

The other possibility - and I hate to mention this - is that she might have been a two-timer. My brother has a longtime lady friend who we understood was married for years while she snuck off to see my brother, her old high school pal, even though they live in different states. She always had a "friend" to go visit, that was her getaway excuse.

I thought about this when she would go see her daughter in New Jersey. I've always had a general unease when she would go see her daughter. It was close to her old work location, her former life, ex boyfriends etc. She would always stay in an AirBnB by herself and while I'm certain she was there to see her daughter, there were oddities in her communication patterns I thought. No way to know for sure, I hate AirBnBs in general but on one occasion she was passed out from drinking with her kids, I couldn't get in touch with her, we fought about it. That's water under the bridge from about nine months in.

As far as going to see her bff, I believe that. I've met her and am familiar with their history and the chaos of her life. I expressed to her bff my concerns about the above item and she was adamant she wouldn't cheat. I think I believe her. Interesting thing though, I never felt comfortable expressing that to my Ex for fear of being seen as being insecure or imposing accusations based on my past. We seemed to argue consistently when she would go there, and full accountabity, right or wrong, I played into that conflict given my concerns whether it be safety or letting me know she arrived ok somewhere.

No wonder you were uneasy; I see red flags all over that frequent need to "go to New Jersey to visit her daughter."

One thing I learned the hard way from the cheaters in my life is how they seem to count on gullible us accepting face value statements like that with an underlying "either-or" logic. So for example, when we hear explanations like "see her daughter" we naturally tend to EXCLUDE the simple possibility that someone like her could be BOTH seeing her daughter AND sneaking in some time with an EX. (Always choosing an independent Air B-n-B stay just about cinches that possibility for me.) Cheaters expect us to automatically accept their "cover story." Sorry to say, but I have to agree with Dude: think how much practice she has had in this juggling of men in her life. Your gut was telling you some things for a REASON. Ugh. Remain guarded in any future dealings with this one.

I had to end it with the love of my life after I found out he had been dating another woman but told me that he "wanted me in his life." In his mind, I discovered, I fit in as one of his Admirers, so naturally he hated to lose me. Didn't mean he wanted to be an exclusive couple! After 4 years dating, the day came when he went with me to look at a house in another town over an hour away from where we each lived, and he sat next to me in the real estate office as I wrote a contract on it. Then "we" made an appointment for the following weekend to look at a big historic place for sale right across the street which he wanted to tour, only to have him call and tell me the day before that he wouldn't be able to make it.

For some reason, I got suspicious and asked what came up. Turns out he confessed he'd decided to take HER to look at that historic house, knowing I'd already put money down on a cute little house across the street from it! I'm sure he didn't tell that woman about any of that. I learned later that he married her and they had a couple kids; "happy ever after," all that, from what I can tell. However, that fatal day was when I realized what I was dealing with, and 4 years during prime of my life wasted away in a moment. (Still hurts a little bit decades later, I won't lie.)

So again, I'm sorry for your pain. Hard to believe, but ending it with this woman makes more room for other, better people in your life: friends, hobbies, deeper dives into life meaning...

Kintsugi - I responded to your old thread about a year ago or so. I come across as crusty at times but what I wrote then is just as applicable today.

Absolution, I remember it well and recently reread it. When we were working through the issues at the time, I even referenced it to her. I honestly wrestle with the sentiment of where the line is drawn between being an appliance to her and the degree that we've interwoven our lives. She did say on a few occasions that I do everything, and I physically did a lot. Our lives were just different. Her busy with work, kids, no car etc. and me recently retired, no kids and small family and even smaller circle of friends. There was possibly an imbalance for sure on a level of managing our daily lives, which makes it all the more important for me to have received a bigger emotional commitment on her part.

I/we were in transition for sure given life changes and even possibly moving in together. It stung when she renewed her lease last February. I think it stung even more when I learned in her mind we were moving in together at the end of the lease and she didn't have the consideration to have a discussion about it (even if it was simply to demonstrate positive commitment and gain consensus), but stinging even more that since that time she decided to extend it through the following May after her daughter's wedding. I'm thinking, ok, we didn't have the discussion to move in together and now it's being extended for three more months, asking myself, "what's wrong with moving in together in February at the end of your lease? Not even an option in her mind which really raises even more red flags to me that the can is being kicked down the road, yet again.

Edited to add: That decision to renew her lease last February put me in a hold pattern on a house I own in Virginia. We either would have moved in together and consolidated costs or sold and moved to some options we have in Florida and/or New York. So kicking the can down the road has cost implications and doesn't make any sense to me.

[This message edited by Kintsugi at 6:59 PM, Thursday, October 13th]

Before getting with her did you consider that anyone with three ex husbands might not be the best relationship material? And, statistically, based on studies, the chances of having a lasting relationship with someone who was married and divorced three times is in the single digits.

Dude, yes, when she told me I was taken back for sure. As she explained the circumstances I understood - maybe rationalized is a better word - the circumstances. I certainly could appreciate her circumstances in context of me being married twice and I could appreciate that we all enter in these things with the best of intentions but sometimes what turns out to be the wrong reasons. Life happens I thought at the time.

With me possibly being number four and her number 3 for me the stats were definitely not in our favor. I think if nothing else+ as issues developed between us our pasts began to clash. I very badly wanted to do the Gottman State of the Union weekly talks for this very reason. With her adamantly against it we really didn't stand a chance.

[This message edited by Kintsugi at 9:22 PM, Friday, October 14th]

Red flags do not mean we should put in more work, they mean we should walk away.

as issues developed between us our pasts began to clash. I very badly wanted to do the Gottman State of the Union weekly talks for this very reason.

So then the problem is you wanting to work, work, work on a problematic relationship instead of realizing it was not the right one.

She sounds avoidant and emotionally unavailable. I hope you will work on learning to walk away from people who refuse to meet your needs instead of begging them to change "for you."

Not coping well with growing resentment, I could have been more forgiving and handled our issues differently to include softer start ups.

More forgiving of avoidant and dismissive behavior??? How about LESS tolerant of it. You had resentments, so why didn't you leave her? THAT'S the work to do in IC. You need to learn why you refuse to leave people who do not meet your needs or want to.

Break ups suck, but not nearly as much as horrible relationships.

I am assuming she broke up with you?

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 2:44 PM, Saturday, October 15th]

I’m going to throw my two cents in the ring which is a little contrary to some other comments.

When I started reading you post about you wanting to listen to gottman etc and the effort you were putting in I was like, geez I want a man like that. I’m in the wrong country lol. Then your focus shifted to all the things she wasn’t doing to meet your needs.

If feel your half way there…. You have this growth mindset to pursue a better life but you’re with someone totally incompatible in that sense (at least at this point in time or maybe never may or may not be interested). It’s like trying to buy something in the wrong shop. When we are in pursuit to have a better life, those who aren’t growing kinda get left behind. It’s like an extrovert dating someone who wants to sit on the couch alone. I met someone successful mingling after a personal development training last night and keenly listened it to what he had to say about his journey. He said he spends around $50k a year on personal development and that although he still hangs with some old time friends he seeks out new friends constantly who are even higher up the personal development ladder than himself in order to grow. He was married (unfortunately lol) but it reminded me that I will also need to find that like mindset individual NOT someone who never thinks to improve things. Otherwise it will always be a struggle. This applies to many life relationships. So my advice is change shops! Plenty of development workshops out there with single women who are move likely the types interested in things like gottman.

And the second part is your focus on what she’s doing "wrong" and her independence. I don’t know enough so may be off base here. But guessing from the fact you’ve been married twice and she’s after her fourth, I’m guessing you’re at least my age (47). I’m a professional single mum and have been doing it on my own for a while. So I don’t ‘need’ anyone and I’m very used to getting on with things. Highly independent. I want a partner, I don’t need one so it’s a balancing act because it’s harder to a man to be my knight when I can pretty much do it myself. I won’t be the same "dependent" partner I would have been in my first long term relationship. Yes I’ll let someone know when I arrive someone after a long drive. But half the things where I reached for support in my 20s, I just wouldn’t now. Ie catching an Uber. So maybe don’t take it all personally is what I’m trying to say. And yes when my daughters or son move out of home I’ll want to visit them as much as I can because they are my kids and the most important thing in my life. Don’t compete. There is space for both. The dynamic is albeit different because of the situation. If it was a joint child I’m sure you’d want to be visiting them often too. That said, wanting attention and affection is absolutely justified and necessary in a romantic relationship and being "present" for that is something the right match should meet for you.

You sound a really nice guy that needs a partner looking for the same things. This hurts… I get that part. Take the time to do some things for yourself. Take a break away perhaps. And find all the little lessons to take forward. Big hugs.

No wonder you were uneasy; I see red flags all over that frequent need to "go to New Jersey to visit her daughter."

One thing I learned the hard way from the cheaters in my life is how they seem to count on gullible us accepting face value statements like that with an underlying "either-or" logic. So for example, when we hear explanations like "see her daughter" we naturally tend to EXCLUDE the simple possibility that someone like her could be BOTH seeing her daughter AND sneaking in some time with an EX. (Always choosing an independent Air B-n-B stay just about cinches that possibility for me.) Cheaters expect us to automatically accept their "cover story." Sorry to say, but I have to agree with Dude: think how much practice she has had in this juggling of men in her life. Your gut was telling you some things for a REASON. Ugh. Remain guarded in any future dealings with this one.

Thanks Superesse.

I never felt comfortable enough to share with her the unease I had. In a recent conversation with her I shared with her these feelings I had when she would travel to that area given her history there with ex's, the Airbnb concerns etc. She knows my history of being cheated on but couldn't seem to wrap her brain around why I would feel that way, and she said, "I'm spending time with my kids."

I asked her, why didn't I ever go with her, she reiterated the response and added, she tends to compartmentalize that side of her life and she likes and needs her independence. Which is true and I get that to a degree. Where it falls apart for me is of her three kids, I've traveled with her to see two of them to help along as she managed things in her/their lives and I've met the third for dinner out of state (away from New Jersey) where we all happen to be/Florida. So I have spent time with all of her kids and even traveled to see two of them staying overnight too.

Moral to the story, maybe we haven't been together long enough to have accompanied her to this particular location. Ok. But the word compartmentalization she used sends shivers through my spine. If you're reading this, you know why most likely. The unease I was feeling led to fights at the time, I didn't know why at the time I felt that way and now in retrospect I now realize I was hypersensitive and vigilant, and my mental state was in self-protection mode, and definitely on edge.

In the recent discussion after sharing those thoughts and feelings to her I would have welcomed a "I'm sorry to hear that, what could I have done to help your uneasiness." Instead, I got a "that's why you couldn't have gone to my daughter's wedding (in New Jersey at the same area), what would you have done if I was hugging an old friend?" Knowing her history with her ex's and the distance she puts with men in her life that is more about her than me and she's using my issues to rationalize hers. While maybe picking a fight at the time, she's putting my past and uneasiness from the infidelity trauma at a whole other place and level and that's not my circus or monkeys.

[This message edited by Kintsugi at 5:18 PM, Tuesday, October 18th]

"I'm spending time with my kids."

Of course.

what would you have done if I was hugging an old friend

Wow. That was like telling you without actually telling you. No, 100% sounds like she had plans that didn't include you, so sorry.

[This message edited by Superesse at 9:06 PM, Tuesday, October 18th]

She’s living the life she wants. You are in a box only to be let loose when it’s ok for her.

Hmmmm…..she’s shady.

You do not have to accept this. I hope you know that.

.... it reminded me that I will also need to find that like mindset individual NOT someone who never thinks to improve things. Otherwise it will always be a struggle. This applies to many life relationships. So my advice is change shops! Plenty of development workshops out there with single women who are move likely the types interested in things like gottman.

Thanks Tortured. I've been sitting on the situation for a week or two now. She clearly has NO INTEREST whatsoever to even attempt to meet my needs. We're definitely broken up and it's really tough. I'll give her credit. She's taken the stance that in her eyes she'll never be able to meet my needs, and she's probably right. Maybe I'm just too needy but I know I've felt empty on and off for most of the relationship.

You sound a really nice guy that needs a partner looking for the same things. This hurts… I get that part. Take the time to do some things for yourself. Take a break away perhaps. And find all the little lessons to take forward. Big hugs.

Thanks again. I try but find I often come up short and I'm really hard on myself.

Red flags do not mean we should put in more work, they mean we should walk away.

as issues developed between us our pasts began to clash. I very badly wanted to do the Gottman State of the Union weekly talks for this very reason.

So then the problem is you wanting to work, work, work on a problematic relationship instead of realizing it was not the right one.

She sounds avoidant and emotionally unavailable. I hope you will work on learning to walk away from people who refuse to meet your needs instead of begging them to change "for you."

Not coping well with growing resentment, I could have been more forgiving and handled our issues differently to include softer start ups.

More forgiving of avoidant and dismissive behavior??? How about LESS tolerant of it. You had resentments, so why didn't you leave her? THAT'S the work to do in IC. You need to learn why you refuse to leave people who do not meet your needs or want to.

Break ups suck, but not nearly as much as horrible relationships.

I am assuming she broke up with you?

WOW OwningItNow!!! That's deep!!!

Yes, technically she did the breaking up. I know I've had a deep sense of anxiety for a long time. I'm finally coming to understand it all. I felt emotionally unsafe in the relationship. Reading up on it, I was textbook symptoms of being with someone who is emotionally walled off. She even stated she was what she was and had no interest in growing. So there was no way to build real intimacy in the relationship and when I would lash out it was my sense of protecting myself from what I subconsciously sensed as a threat.

I certainly played my part, but I'm believing that with a Thanksgiving with her kids planned, an upcoming lease renewal where we were considering moving in together instead and a wedding in May for her daughter, the avoidant and compartmentalizing part in her would rather break up than work on herself.

So, this past Saturday she picked up her things from my main residence. See made statements how great we are, how great I was and that we're 80% amaazing but she'll never be able to meet my needs. Noticeable was the fact she didn't want to try or even work on herself. This Saturday she will be getting her stuff with her bff from a place I have in NY (same bff who helped her move out of husband 2 and 3 when things went bad) and on the 12th, again with her bff from a place in Florida. She gets to move out 3 times lol.

I thought about this the other day too. I'm retired and she works from home and I'll give the benefit of the doubt, Id say she's dedicated and perhaps a workaholic without the benefit of the doubt. We live nine minutes from each other. I've gone to her place one time in two years for lunch during the work week. The one time was just before the breakup, and it was really nice. Just a quick 45 minutes and out. That seems bizarre to me thinking about it.

[This message edited by Kintsugi at 8:54 PM, Tuesday, November 1st]