SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

In the words of St. Francis of Assisi when he met Brother Dominic on the road to Umbria....

Hi.

I registered on this site about a decade ago and have been a consistent and fairly avid reader since that time. Poster? Not so much. This is my first thread. There's so many things I have questions about that I could seek the collective wisdom of SI for with this "first"...but there's one concept that, over the years, has just been a recurring "twist" in my "reconcialiation soul" that I truly desire to aim the collective experience and wisdom of SI at today. It has to do with the issue (legitimacy/illegitimacy?) of deep, and chronic lasting affair related pain despite doing all the requisite work. I apologize in advance if this post swells to innapropriate word length. I will try to be as concise as I can. Also, I have chosen Reconciliation as the forum for this post simply because that is my personal context (FWIW with a truly remorseful fWW who also did all the requisite work).

I was a pastor for two decades and, among tons of other things, one way I was called to support and encourage people in my care was to assist them in dealing with varying types of physical suffering. Whether from age, illness, or (ding ding ding)...trauma, it was a consistent part of my ministry to people to encourage them in carrying hard, painful, lasting bodily pain. Most commonly, I knew that these situations were not going to change for these people. The realites were what they were, and my job was to simply come alongside and be whatever support and encouragemnt that I could. One case in particular involved a car accident survivor who had gone through all kinds of therapy, regular pain relief meds etc. and still lived with a fair amount of debilitation in spite of fully recovering and doing all the work involved in healing/therapy. You can likely see where I'm heading with this, but before I "officially" do I want to say...

I know there are many here who recoil at the thought of equating physical pain resulting from trauma with the emotional/psychological pain resulting from affair trauma. There are differences. I get it. I also get that there folks who do NOT do the work. But that's not what I am digging at here. What I AM digging at here is this...

I wonder if we do betrayeds a potentially grave harm when we suggest to them that they WILL heal and WILL recover from affair trauma, with the clear implication (if not overt assertion) that, while they may possibly deal with some manageable flare ups from time to time, by and large, they will not have to deal with severe and lasting pain in the long term. And, I even am wondering if there's not an even DARKER impication here...

That we, at very least indirectly (if not DIRECTLY) blame and shame the victim if they DO experience deep and long term affair truama pain (regardless of D or R). We suggest that, if they are "stuck" the only real possible reason for it is that they have failed or are failing to do (insert whatever recovery work/combination of receovery work here). If I may carry this to a likely innapropriate end...If I had taken the approach with my chronically, physically pained parishoners that they, without excpetion or doubt, WILL escape the deep and lasting pain, not have to deal with it long term, and that if they did, it was some type of their OWN FAILURE to recover/do the work...man...I would liken that to abuse. And I don't say that flippantly. As a sort of side note (forgive the momentary religion-y stuff ahead) I HAVE actually seen that approach from others in my position with the added (and IMHO fatal) religious twist that "God wants you better or "free". Talk about a twisted shameful mess. In those situations, now (for the relgiously inclined obviously) not only do they carry their own shame for failing to recover...but now they're failing God too.

So, I guess again, to try to focus this one more time before I submit this, I simply ask...

Why would we NEVER suggest to someone in chronic physical pain that they absolutely WILL heal. WILL recover. WILL overcome and escape that pain. Yet, that is the exact approach we prefer when seeking to help affair-pain-wracked betrayeds?

Again, I get it. Some people do NOT do the work. Pain shopping is a thing. The "familiarity" of the pain being somehow "comfortable" is a thing. In Chamomile Tea's passionate pleas...feeding the wrong wolf is a thing. Self-sabotaging rumination is a thing. I understand.

However...I also think deep, lasting, chronic affair related pain...despite doing "all the work", might also be a thing. That, you can do all the work, and still be wracked with it. And I also believe that the extremely well intentioned approach of suggesting to betrayeds that their "full" recovery (meaning basically free of deep lasting chronic pain) is pretty much a guarantee, and that any "stuckness" they may experience has to be somehow of their own device...may be absolutely catastrophically misguided.

I wonder about this. A lot.

Does the vast collective wisdom of SI wonder about it too?

Thank you for your time with these thoughts,

WH

Footnote: for the sake of clarity, within the context of reconciliation, all of the above assumes a truly remorseful WS who also has done the work and is not the catalyst for the presence of the chronic pain. I'm submitting that the pain may just be the pain, pure and standalone.

*Edited for spelling

[This message edited by Wounded Healer at 6:13 PM, Monday, February 28th]

I wonder the same as you, a lot. Am I just the type of person who cannot heal from this level of betrayal? FWIW, I am also a chronic pain sufferer, who bristles at the notion I can think or wish or will myself into better health by those who don't understand the world I live in. Some things do not heal.

I think the answer is that some personality types just can't allow the pain to recede like others can. My therapist suggested that due to my nature, I was facing a very hard path just to acceptance, let alone reconciliation. I took it a little personally because I think I am smart and capable and fully expected to be healed, recovered and happy well before the 2-5 year mark. I underestimated my heartache and the sorrow I would carry in choosing to stay in my marriage, and in continuing to love someone who has hurt me so deeply. I've never stayed with anyone who hurt or betrayed me before, and it may be that I'm just not suitable for the job.

My kids had me take the 16 personality types quiz with them for fun a year or two after DDay, and the results in the relationship section made me cry, hard. It is basically a Meyers-Briggs test and I've taken it many times before, but never had my relationship style explained, so it all clicked for me, why this is so incredibly hard to heal from.

... relationships with this personality type are not for the uncommitted or the shallow. When it comes to intimacy, they can be incredibly passionate in ways that go beyond the physical. People with this personality type crave an emotional and even spiritual connection with their partner. They cherish not just the act of being in a relationship but also what it means to become one with another person in mind, body, and soul.

I have come to understand that my attachment style of loving with my whole heart and soul, my core values of loyalty and honesty, the story I had created for my life, the mythology of my perfect marriage and the way my brain works were all the perfect storm for me to struggle so hard with the disappointment, hurt and sorrow from infidelity. I am 4 1/2 years from discovering the betrayal, and this weekend endured hours of crying at the sadness of it all. I told my WH that he needs to understand that until my dying day, this will hurt and this sadness will follow me always. There is nothing either of us can do that can truly heal my broken heart or take away all my regrets or what ifs. I can only hope the load gets easier to carry with time, and I no longer wait to be "healed" or reach that point where it no longer hurts. At this point I think all I can hope for are healing tips and techniques to compensate for the pain and trauma, not an end point of healed where this thing that happened no longer dominates my life. I'm not wired that way, I guess. Should I be wrong, I promise to post an update here stating that I was wrong and sharing my secret to getting there.

I think the reason everyone asserts that the betrayed will heal is just an attempt to stay positive and be supportive. But it's almost as cruel as the Santa lie, isn't it, to assure things will get better when often they do not? If there were a sure way to counsel someone out of the labyrinth of pain into certain healing, I'd be the first to sign up.

Thanks for the thought provoking post, and best to you in finding a path to whatever healing is possible with your big heart.

I like this post. I think anyone who has experienced or perpetrators of infidelity has a before and after. Certainly the after will never look like the before. Personally I think in a good R there are things that are better than they were. That doesn’t absolve the bad days that you describe but in the big picture sense.

I tend to believe it’s a balance. If the pain of staying is worse than the pain of leaving then you deserve your own peace. I think for some it’s more the fear of leaving that keeps them in a marriage that they may never feel peace in again. I don’t think that it’s the bs’s fault. I think we all have a complex internal world that have varied ways of coping, different amounts of dedication to various moral beliefs as well as different theories behind how much they share of this moving forward.

We are much earlier out than you but my husband will simply say I am having a bad day. I will help him by holding space for him, giving him comfort in the ways that are meaningful to him. And vice versa(because he had an A in the aftermath of mine) this helps with normally making it hours or a day or two instead of it spiraling for days or creating another rift we have to overcome later.

Truth is some people can live with it better than others. That doesn’t make that person weak, in fact sometimes that is a strength to know that this is just something that is never going to allow you to live in peace.

If your peace is there most of the time, but there are days that you just feel down about it. That can be normal. It makes sense to stay in a marriage where there is mostly peace and love and contentment.

However, if it’s not, that is not on the bs. That is on the ws for breaking something that just can’t be fixed. It’s why i believe the Bible says this is the one reason you can divorce in Gods eyes. I am not a particularly religious person but since you are I think that might be relevant to you.

There is no marriage, even ones untouched by infidelity that are absent of pain. There is no marriage where anyone should blindly be trusted. But you have to decide what is good enough for you or not. I think you are reading it as blame but it’s not. You get this one journey in life and no one can dictate to you what you must or must not endure. The marriage is broken by the ws. You have to weigh whether or not it’s redeemable and works for you today. You may see your ws as redeemed that may still not make the relationship worthwhile to you again.

I think what you see more of on this site is people pushing others to understand you are under no obligation to stay. If you decide to stay make sure it’s worth it to you. I have never seen anyone say very far out that what you are experiencing isn’t normal. It is normal. Your responsibility is not to the marriage or your ws in those moments. It’s to yourself, therefore there isn’t blame. You deserve peace and happiness. You are the only one who can quantify that and decide your satisfaction with it. There are no wrong answers- some people simply have to move on because they will never find peace in the marriage again. Just because the ws is now behaving doesn’t take away what broke it in the beginning.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:08 PM, Monday, February 28th]

Very thoughtful post.

I’m not even two years out from D-day, so I may be wrong, but I suspect I will always carry this pain. Something at the very core of my life and being broke and shifted with my husband’s betrayal. At my calmest, best moments that deep pain is still there, and I sensed its permanence as soon as the shock and denial cleared. I have also taken to heart CT’s incredibly wise advice not to feed the wrong wolf, and I’m determined not to do that, but that kernel of pain at the very center of my heart is different than the wolves of anger and resentment and anxiety and unforgiveness.

I have a personality like whatisloveanyway describes. I had very deep-seeded ideas of what mine and my husband’s relationship was. I didn’t realize until his betrayal how utterly committed and connected I was to him. So committed that I literally never had the smallest thought of straying over a 22 year relationship. My basic assumptions about our relationship were much more foundational than I realized; I had never questioned them.

I was fundamentally wrong. We didn’t have what I thought we had, or we did, and his betrayal destroyed it. We love each other deeply and are working hard at reconciliation, and I think there’s the possibility that we’ll build a good new relationship. But I think I’ll always have pain associated with the loss of the old one. It feels like the untimely death of someone very close. It recedes with time, but you always have that kernel of pain and mourning deep within.

[This message edited by Grieving at 12:50 PM, Sunday, September 11th]

Back when I was going through the worst of it, if I had actually believed that there was no hope of healing, that my pain would be chronic and lifelong, I think I might have done something irretrievable. Fortunately for me, my belief in healing carried me through. I do think that for some people, infidelity is a deal-breaker, and there's no shame in that. For those people, divorce is a better answer and once they've put the marriage behind them and started REALLY living their lives again, they seem to do just fine. I believe in working hard to get what you want, so if you want R and your WS is a good candidate for it, I think you can eventually get there. You might have to try different techniques or whatever, but I think it's doable.

In your case, OP, you seem to have made a pretty thorough study of it, but have you looked to the East? I do recommend Buddhist thought on suffering, and how the most common cause of suffering is the craving or desire for something; in the case if infidelity, for the cheating NOT to have happened. Once we realize we're involved in an action that causes us suffering (craving/longing), we have more control over it. So much of our emotional suffering is tied directly to the ego, so when we surrender our indignity at the thought that we could be victims of a broken vow or promise and then allow the cheating to be an indictment on the cheater rather than ourselves, it's easier to put it in perspective.

I'll take a stab at this.

I know I have residual pain. For me healing is a cycle of letting, say, 90% of the pain go, and then 90% of the remaining pain, and 90% of the pain that still remains, as long as I live ... but there's always some pain left. I experience myself as having only a little residual pain, and I think I reached that state 3.5-4 years out from d-day.

But you've had 2 d-days more than 10 years apart. Perhaps you couldn't heal because your gut told you there was more that your W was hiding. If everything is now out in the open, maybe you will heal now.

OTOH, I don't know how much pain I carry around in absolute terms. I do know that I have a very high tolerance for some types of pain. Maybe, in absolute terms, my pain and yours are about the same.

We each experience life through our own filters. Maybe the filters are some combination of emotional, intellectual, and perceptual. Maybe they're all just chemical. I don't know, and I don't think we can know. But it does make sense to me that each of us decides, in some way, how to respond to each stimulus, and we don't all respond the same way. There's no shame in that.

(Infidelity isn't the only trauma I've experienced, and I suspect that it's not the only trauma anyone experiences - we all go through traumatic experiences in our lives. My bet is that we all have deep-seated residual pain from all of them.)

*****

Remember, too, that shame is felt internally. IMO, it's imposed internally, too, even though one's culture tells one what to feel ashamed about.

SI doctrine is that we can all heal from being betrayed, and the rule of thumb is 2-5 years. If it takes someone much longer than that, the person may feel shame, but that's not the only possible response - the person could also feel fine being an outlier or decide that the heuristic is wrong. The best response, probably, is simply to allow oneself to take the time one needs.

*****

My sense is that SI's message is that one can heal if one does the necessary work. I could be wrong about that. It's easy to drop the qualifier in one's head, bt one still has to work to heal.

My bet is that anyone who comes here and talks about being stuck with infidelity-related pain is almost aware of an obstacle. I'm OK with a categorical statement to the effect that getting that obstacle out of the way will help that person heal.

*****

I believe human beings are born with the ability to process pain out of our bodies, although we may never develop or may lose knowledge of techniques. Some of us are born or develop conditions in which physical pain is chronic, and chronic physical pain affects one's whole life. In any case, pain is a feeling, a bodily sensation.

Releasing emotional pain is different from releasing physical pain, IMO. We may not be able to figure out how to release emotional pain on our own; I sure couldn't. But I think essentially all of us can learn with the right help.

If one becomes aware of pain, IMO the pain is ready to be processed out of one's body. One can choose to do the processing or send it back to be stored.

There's no shame in taking time or needing help for releasing pain. IMO, it always takes longer than one wants it to take.

The key is, I think, nurturing oneself away from shame. We are not supposed to feel pain, and shame helps us suppress the pain we feel. But suppressing takes energy that could available for other, more beneficial endeavors. IMO, the quickest way through pain is to feel it, which releases it.

It's not easy, but it's doable, and it's worthwhile. That's a short sentence for a LOT of work, some of which never ends. There's a lot of pain (and joy, and anger, and fear...) in life, and one can't stop processing.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:02 PM, Monday, February 28th]

I think it is a very thoughtful post.

It was a topic I considered quite a bit during the first 2-3 years of my own trauma recovery from infidelity. I also don’t know if my story is different because it was my second substantive trauma in life as a kid (ages 8-11), regularly being beaten by a step-father who hated me.

Between those traumas, the additional losses of loved ones and other sad events we all have to deal with along the way — I know that my pain and any time I spent with it is well earned.

For me, I ultimately concluded that while I have earned the right to that pain, and am allowed to be as miserable as I want, I discovered choices. I rediscovered my agency. I found my own way to focus on the more positive elements of my existence, while recognized all of things that caused me pain.

I will never suggest anyone ever chooses to stay in pain, I will not give grief to those people who are certain they stuck where there are.

I can only ever share my experience and hope everyone finds a way to the other side of the horrific emotional pain infidelity visits upon us.

In other words, I believe the pain is absolutely legitimate.

It was to me.

I found that when I invested my time, my thoughts and my energy to the life I am living today, versus ruminating on a life I wished for or the bad things I wished hadn’t happened to me, that there was an increase in return on my investment.

Happiness, sadness, grief, anger, etc, are all a part of my daily existence, but how much I spend on any of those moments is MY choice.

I tend to hit what I aim for. I aim for following up on what good is happening for me today.

All of that doesn’t guarantee me a good, pain free day. I still have to earn it by choosing not to linger on thoughts that I can’t do anything about. I can’t change a single thing about yesterday. I can’t change what happened to me.

I can wake up and choose to be grateful for another day and another opportunity to find some joy or something fun or time with people I care about.

The power of free will, the power of choice, the power of my own agency is very real.

All that and a cup of coffee doesn’t make me pain free, it just allows me to decide how much time I want to spend with that pain and whether I am processing it or choosing to hold on to it.

So for ME — I wake up each day choose my path. I choose my wife. I choose my marriage. I choose to reach out to people I care about and see how they are doing. I choose to plan something I will enjoy (a workout, a walk, a favorite author to read, film to view, etc.). I choose where to invest my thoughts and my energy and when a bad day, bad moment, bad memory hits, I work through it and see what there is I can do about it or if I just have to process it and move on.

I saw someone on an internet interview talk about his process and that he felt like focusing on his past pain was like renewing or signing a contract with his pain, to give it more power, more time. It wasn’t a perfect analogy, but I do understand that at times, I still sign a new contract with past pain and trauma, and then I’ll ride it out, process the pain and then again, I move forward.

Good memories from my past don’t serve me much better than the bad ones — I find I need to constantly build new and better days, to keep my focus on the here and now.

Very thought provoking post...thanks for sharing !

It seems to me that the OP shows healing and no pain as the same thing. To ME...they are different. For instance...a person can heal from a broken leg but they can sure feel the pain when the weather changes or they move it the wrong way.

I am healed from my H's infidelity . But it doesn't mean I am pain free from what he did. I haven't had that despairing raw pain like I did almost 8 years ago...but I don't believe anyone can be completely free from pain from ANY trauma. I know I certainly haven't been able to be pain free from the trauma I experienced when I lost my Beloved Mama several decades ago .

I may have missed something that spawned this thread...but I don't know of anyone who has healed on here who has also written that they feel no more pain from the infidelity. NONE of us go through life unscathed...and ALL of us will feel pain from something. It doesn't mean that we won't ever feel good again though .

I think the physical trauma and pain metaphor is entirely appropriate.

I've mentioned before (and in my profile) that pain/betrayal isn't a competition. That said, I fully believe there are degrees of trauma based on specific circumstances.

Much like physical injuries, it could be said we all broke our emotional legs.

Now, I personally maybe suffered a minor fracture of my tibia. Others here have suffered deep compound fracturs of multiple bones in both legs.

Sure we all have to have our bones set properly, and we have to do the work of PT to regain mobility, but some of us will just have more lasting damage than others. This is related to the severity of the injury suffered. This has been talked about in multiple threads about "what is lost even in a successful R". Also, as you mentioned if the WS keeps hitting your legs with a baseball bat, you aren't ever going to heal.

With that said, each injury is a personal experience, and some people might receive the same impact to their legs but suffer a less severe breakage with less resulting long term impacts. Basically, our mental resilience varies from person to person. I don't mean that as a character flaw or anything, just a difference like a lighter bone structure. Not really anything you can do about it.

So then at some point, you have healed probably to your full capacity. There is no further therapy that will resolve lingering issues. They will just linger. You learn to cope with those issues. You also don't ignore the new limitations and pretend they don't exist. If you did ignore it, you would risk further injury and likely cause more pain.

In addition to my relatively small injury, I'm also only a little over 2 years in so take it with a massive grain of salt.

EDIT TO ADD: It's my belief (and held by my IC at least) that any feelings you are having, you are having. They aren't legitimate/illegitimate. There is no universal arbiter that can say "You Shouldn't Feel Hurt Anymore" or "You Should Be Happy" or criteria that you must meet to legitimately have a feeling. They just are. They are emotions. The emotions that you specifically feel as a result of your experiences and current stimuli are what they are. What you do with them, and how you choose to act on them to change them (or not) is up to you.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 9:16 PM, Monday, February 28th]

My mother pasted several years back unexpectedly, the pain was intense everyday, then more days then not, then less days then not. Now I hurt just as much as when I first found out but not often.

Affairs are very much like losing a loved one.

When I found out about the affair, I knew divorce was my only path forward. We divorced and I moved on with my life. Then boom, the pain was back. Just as intense as in the beginning. I had a hard time understanding because I was divorced, I had moved on. Then it dawned on me, it can never be undone. You can never really just divorce it away. It has become a piece of you, a part of your life. More importantly, I hadn't dealt with it. I thought I had, but what I did was took a shortcut, the water path of least resistance.

I started to dig, why is this still hitting me like this, what did I miss.

Slowly I began to realize I never really accepted what happened, I never got my questions answered, I never spoke my peace, I simply walked away and thought to hell with it and her.

Its a long complicated story but it ended with me remarried to my fWW. I remember thinking she broke me its only fair that she has to play with the broken toy.

To end this before I start rambling on, we healed together, we are doing great. However, we both still feel intense pain for what was lost, and the damage that was caused. Fewer days as it gets smaller in the rear view. We have both learned to accept that it will happen, we have learned to have empathy for one another on those down moments or days.

That was a great post. We've been missing out all this time when you haven't been posting.

We say here "sometimes it's just a deal breaker". I believe that for some people, it is. I've said a number of times that I don't have what it takes to reconcile after infidelity. It's not how my personality works. Regardless of what my XWH had done afterwards, I am not cut out for what it takes. Sometimes I've wondered if my standards are too unrealistically high for happiness in a marriage, but I don't think so. Sometimes I've wondered if it's just simply that I am able to be very content and happy by myself and having a partner isn't a requirement for a good life. Mostly I knew that if I couldn't have what I thought I had with this man, I didn't want anything lesser with him. No matter who he became, it would have been lesser for me. He broke what I cherished most in the marriage. He broke the trust I had in him and I didn't want a lesser version of that. My home has to feel safe to me. Has to. I understand that we all live with uncertainty, but there are kinds of uncertainty that I can eliminate from my life. If an appliance catches fire, I'm going to replace instead of fix it and worry about it catching fire again. If my friend betrays me, I'm going to not be their friend anymore. If my spouse causes me this kind of trauma, I need to remove him from my home. I had no desire to wait whatever amount of time to see if he became the kind of person who couldn't cheat or expend time and energy trying to figure out whether or not he was still lying. I had no desire to try and love the man who had abused me with infidelity. I had no real urge to wait and see if the alarm systems in my brain ever stopped seeing him as a threat. I got pretty rational about it. I knew that I'd fall out of love with him in time if I left. I knew the heartbreak of leaving him would be less suffering than staying would have been. I knew that if I was looking for a spouse I could trust, there were much better bets out there for that as he had disqualified himself. I knew that even if I wound up alone, I could be happy by myself. I knew myself. I knew that I never regained the same quality of even friendships or family relationships after any kind of betrayal. It's not that I'm unforgiving, it's that there's something in me that just doesn't have any interest in being emotionally vulnerable with people who have deeply hurt me. I have never been able to talk myself into it in other scenarios, so why would this be magically different? I knew all those things and yet did give myself a few months before I left. The second he gave me any reason, I was done. The entire 8 months I stayed was spent planning for what I'd do when it ended. I had that normal period of desperately wishing something magic could make the pain go away and get me back the marriage I'd thought I had, but it was a short-lived delusion for me.

No, I don't think there's anything wrong with you for this being a lasting injury that won't heal while you're married. Some of us aren't wired to do reconciliation and that's perfectly okay.

There’s so much wisdom and thoughtfulness and depth of experience in this thread. Food for thought. Thank you all.

This is where I see some parallels in physical & emotional healing:

Over the years, I brutally abused my right arm. Iplayed baseball through college and a couple seasons in an independent league in my early 20s. After that, I moved into the coaching world where I spent 10 more years.

In that time, I had surgeries on my shoulder and elbow. I tore my labrum, rotator cuff, biceps tendon and ulnar collateral ligament in my elbow. Obviously, there are visible scars. But there is also a fair amount of scar tissue below the surface.

Sometimes my shoulder hurts. Sometimes my elbow is sore & stiff. Sometimes it only takes an Advil. Sometimes it takes some massage or chiropractic therapy.

In the same way, our emotional healing has scars from that trauma. Sometimes it is slight. Sometimes it takes a deeper work.

My shoulder surgery was 20 years ago. The elbow was done 17 years ago.

There are still reminders that it hurt a lot back then. Some days, it still hurts now.

Physically & emotionally, the scars tell a story and the pain is a reminder.

There is so much wisdom and insight in these responses. I know what kind of time and "heart" that has gone into them. It is DEEPLY appreciated. I have been following many of your stories...some for years. I feel like I "know" you (that's not creepy, right?). I am not able to reply at the depth that I desire at the moment, but I will. In the meantime, thank you ALL so much for your investment in this thread. It is super meaningful to me. It is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping for, for me, and for the tribe of others I have met and read along the way that I believe struggle in this manner. Thank you all again.

... relationships with this personality type are not for the uncommitted or the shallow. When it comes to intimacy, they can be incredibly passionate in ways that go beyond the physical. People with this personality type crave an emotional and even spiritual connection with their partner. They cherish not just the act of being in a relationship but also what it means to become one with another person in mind, body, and soul.

I have come to understand that my attachment style of loving with my whole heart and soul, my core values of loyalty and honesty, the story I had created for my life, the mythology of my perfect marriage and the way my brain works were all the perfect storm for me to struggle so hard with the disappointment, hurt and sorrow from infidelity.

Thanks for sharing this. My cheater wife used to complain of my intensity. And as that relates to how I saw marriage, I viewed it as an inviolate one-time bond that she broke by her betrayal. No real coming back from that, and it will color how I see relationships the rest of my life. Its my wiring and I now see it as normal for some of us.

slight t/j.... That was a great post Dee. You should bookmark that and re-post it frequently. R is not for everyone. Well said.

slight t/j.... That was a great post Dee. You should bookmark that and re-post it frequently. R is not for everyone. Well said.

Thank you, CT.

Thanks for sharing this. My cheater wife used to complain of my intensity. And as that relates to how I saw marriage, I viewed it as an inviolate one-time bond that she broke by her betrayal. No real coming back from that, and it will color how I see relationships the rest of my life. Its my wiring and I now see it as normal for some of us.

I relate deeply to you two on this.

At the risk of overdoing it, let me just express, again, as I read through these again this morning, my gratitude for all of your contributions. I'm still considering so much of what has been said already here. I have some follow up thoughts this morning as I continue to sift through all of this.

There is (very wisely and understandably so) a point in most every discussion of a prolonged/protracted experience of deep affair related pain where the issue of "holding on" vs. "letting go" (often the term "releasing" is used as well) is championed. IME this is often coupled with the notion of "choosing" what to do with the pain once recognized. Again, often the implication leans towards the idea that if the pain has chronic depth and consistency, then the betrayed is likely "holding on" to it, failing to "let go" of it, or somehow unable/failing to release it or not exercising the choice to do so. Bottom line, the implication seems often to lean towards some point of failure on the BS's part that has them in whatever level of "stuckness" they find themselves in.

Is it possible...

That, in perhaps more instances than we may realize, the issue is less about the idea that that we have not let go of our infidelity pain and, rather, more about the fact that infidelity pain is not letting go of us? I understand how problematic (and even defeatest) that thought sounds. The thought that we actually may not have absolute power over our pain is an understandably terrifying one. Again, back to my physical pain/suffering analogy, most of the people I have/had helped in my ministry in those situations were not going to escape or overcome thier pain(s). The pain was going to have power over them. Now, they still have a choice of how to respond to that of course (as do we). And some of them blew me away with their grace and dignity in the face of pain hanging on to them. But the pain, deep, and chronic...was present. To them, "letting go" was not an option. There was no "choice" path to lesser pain. Their only choice was to what degree of character they were going to live with while having chronic pain exert it's power over them.

So, as I/we encourage betrayeds to let go...do we bear in mind that, for at least some (many?), there is no such thing? That they can fully "let go", yet find that their chronic affair pain won't let go of them? That, they do not have absolute power over it? That their main "choice" may not so much be a choosing that results in the lessening of the pain, but more of a choice in how much dignity they are going to bring to the face of it?

For me personally, I think it's almost like receiving a difficult (physical) diagnosis. I would rather have my doctor give it to me straight. Like, "Wounded, there are some things you can do that can help, but you are going to experience a good degree of consistent struggle/pain/limitation with this."

And, again, I know everyone is different, and I am likely speaking to a smaller subset of betrayeds (whatisloveanyway's post and description of personality was deeply resonant with me...how many others?) as there ARE MANY who DO "overcome". Not pain free of course, but not the deep chronic stuff many of us might know. So, again, I KNOW why we offer the encouragement(s) that escaping the pain is possible. I just feel for the remnant(?) that it might not be possible for, and just have a non-empirical hunch that their number might be more than we realize. I would never do anything less than CELEBRATE when ANYONE overcomes this and largely heals to the extent that they are able to rise above long term limitations/debilitations.

But...

For every person that is able to do that, I suspect there is one someone somewhere who has done all the work, who's partner has done all the work, who faces a reality in which deep pain is a fairly constant companion. And with every "success" story they encounter, it is really really hard to wonder what might be "wrong" with them (thanks to Repossessed for the idea that the answer to that just might be "nothing").

And, even though this reply is already dissertation length, I have to tack this musing on at the end here...I'm not sure/fear that divorce is not a path to lessening the pain for many of these same betrayeds. I suspect that the very same issues/wiring/personality stuff that contributes to the presence of uniquely stubborn affair pain for them would also make for a similar experience in divorce recovery.

As I read this, man, I know it looks fatalistic, and is certainly not for JFO's. But, again, years of contemplating this, combined with my own personal experience, combined with my observations of others with similar struggles I have encountered IRL and on this site....just...has...me...wondering. Even though it seems fatalistic...is it true?

Thanks so much again for your consideration.

WH

[This message edited by Wounded Healer at 3:02 PM, Tuesday, March 1st]

I think that you keep reading things s blaming or fault. I encourage you to consider what I believe the collective here to be saying.

You did nothing wrong. You were and are innocent of your wife’s actions. Zero culpability. And in that spirit, the encouragement is towards don’t give up or abandon your possible peace.

Maybe you are right that there is no cure for some. I think that many who aren’t as far out as you would maybe not want to accept that, as you said it seems fatalistic.

But there are all sorts of therapies that people have done that have been reported here as effective. EMDR is one. There are some that believe yoga, meditation, certain exercises helps release the deep rooted pain we carry in our bodies from trauma. Some of Eckhardt Tolle’s teachings have been personally helpful to me.

The reason some say divorce is because you literally live with your trigger. I know many believe that relieving themselves of that cognitive dissonance is a trade off for a host of other uncomfortable things. I definitely know it’s not a cure all as we have many betrayed who are divorced who haven’t made much progress. But I see many who it does help them. Asking some to explore whether or not if they would feel better off moving towards divorce is just something to try on. For some it truly is the only way back to themselves. That doesn’t make them less or someone who has failed. It makes them someone who that worked for them.

I wondered what you have tried - might be a good time to revisit therapy. You may read that as I am saying there is something wrong with you. I do not think that at all. I am merely suggesting your peace is worth fighting for. No one can do that for you, and unless you get very proactive you will lose your chance to feel better.

I also wonder what your wife knows about your thoughts and feelings as they are today? If you are bottling this al up - not seeing a therapist, not discussing it anywhere in your day to day life maybe you should question that as well. Carrying this by yourself and keeping it locked up inside your head can only be counterproductive and it will not heal there.

You read these things as we are shaming the bs to "get over it". Maybe try to filter this differently. What many who try to help here believe is you deserve peace and happiness and don’t want to see you give that up as an option. After all you are an innocent in this.

Maybe you have done a lot in that arena, and I am making assumptions. But I have noticed that betrayed husbands in particular bottle a lot up and try to deal with it on their own. I believe it’s the programming men got as boys. There are women like this because some were taught like the boys to keep it to themselves. Generally our programming is different in that way.

Maybe you are also trying to talk yourself out of your feelings. I generally think what we resist persists and you have to process them. You may not have those skills on your own. Most people don’t.

If you had something wrong with your body that was causing you physical pain you would seek treatment. If we are saying it’s similar why would it be shaming bs to continue to pursue treatments in hopes they can find something that relieves them of some of it?

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:51 PM, Tuesday, March 1st]