SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

First time post, thanks for this community.

Backstory - my WW (both 37 yo) and I met in college in 2001. Were close friends until 2008, when we started to date. She gave me an ultimatum to propose by summer 2010 and I did. Married in October 2011. Son born in 2014. She is a doctor and VERY busy at work. She moved to a new job in administration and started a masters degree...was then very busy at work, working late 2-4 nights per week, early meetings 2-3 days per week.

Summer of 2019 she told me a coworker (another doctor, in his 50s) wrote her a love letter but she loved me and was not going to leave me. We didn't really discuss it (first mistake).

She stayed in that job until September 2019 and I was happy she would no longer see this person everyday. Turns out they were still keeping in touch and having their affair.

My DDAY was mid/late August 2020. My WW was very late getting back home after bringing our son to kindergarten. I called and texted to see if she was ok and nothing. When she returned home, she tried to tell me she was just at Starbucks a long time. I pressed her and turns out she was at her AP's apartment - he was now divorced from his wife of 20 years (with kids) and wanted to marry my wife. At this point I was naive and didn't realize this was an EA or PA. A few days later she told me it was not one sided and she felt love for him... then a few days later when I got a message from his exwife, and after pressing her why his ex wanted to chat, she admitted to it being a PA.

I probably told her I could get over this too quickly (within an hour) and we started marriage counseling. However for a few weeks until late September 2020, she still didn't know what she wanted to do. She finally committed to our marriage and we started moving forward.

The fall was trending well, the holidays went well. Our joint marriage counseling sessions tailed off because my WW didn't feel we needed to anymore.

Then on New Years day, a friend from her former job, who knows the AP, said "he wasn't doing well and may feel better if my WW talked with him". I begged her not to, and she said we were in a better place and it would be ok. She did it anyway, and then a few weeks later (mid/late January) my WW's boss decides to do a vaccine event and they end up partnering with the AP's organization. Then the AP starts showing up for weekly Zoom calls with my wife and then they work the event together side by side for 16 hours at the event in March 2021.

Early April 2021 my WW has a troubled look on her face so I ask what is wrong and she says "nothing". After asking 4 times she says "she doesn't know if she wants to keep working on things". My WW is confused and says her mind changes by the minute... some days she asks me questions like "do you think you can trust me again", others she's talking about who would stay in the house.

We started seeing a new marriage counselor (trained in the Gottman method) a few weeks ago. We had a joint session and two individual sessions. Then another joint session. Prior to that one we both read a book recommended by the counselor "How to Help my Spouse Heal from my Affair". I thought it was spot on, but my WW hated it. Said it was inflammatory and was the opposite of a Brene Brown book she is reading about shame. We seemed to move past it and my wife said she feels like I've put her on a train moving forward and she isn't sure she wants to be on it. The counselor then had us start talking more (WW speaking, me repeating).

My WW starts crying (probably the 2nd or 3rd time I've seen her cry ever, she tends to not show perceived weakness). She said she was afraid of being apart, afraid of raising ou son alone, etc. She has not been interested in going back to the counselor.

The marriage counselor thinks my WW is still in a bit of a fog and has said I need to make things as pleasureable at home for her as possible and practice trying to understand her better (WW says the AP really understood her - other than work meetings I don't think they have any contact right now...I hope)

At this point we are in a limbo state...trying to talk about things but not hitting our future head on (I'm trying to give her some space).

My WW wouldn't talk to anyone but some of her own counselors about the affair...2 weeks ago she finally admitted it to a friend. She also has talked with my stepmom twice about the situation (she is understanding and wants to support us). Their second talk was last night but she hasn't told me what they discussed.

But I'm not really sure what do to at this point... I'm preparing myself for the worst... but hoping for the best.

Any advice?

[This message edited by sleeplessinSTL at 11:29 AM, April 29th (Thursday)]

[This message edited by sleeplessinSTL at 5:29 PM, Thursday, April 29th]

other than work meetings I don't think they have any contact right now...I hope)

You’re not in reconciliation unless there’s full no contact. This is why she’s confused and torn. Contact of any kind keeps the affair going. And from your side hoping there’s no other contact is not exactly a strong foundation for R. Neither one of you can fully commit under these conditions. You’re wayward wife needs to quit her job or transfer to a position that does not allow her to make excuses to keep AP in her life and in your marriage.

The marriage counselor thinks my WW is still in a bit of a fog and has said I need to make things as pleasureable at home for her as possible and practice trying to understand her better

And how’s that been working out for you? This counselor sounds like an excellent “pick me dance” instructor. I’d suggest you need to give her an idea of what life without you and halftime with her son is like. Check out the healing library in the yellow box top left corner of the page and read up on the simplified 180. It will allow you space to decide what you want.

As I’ve said, I don’t believe you’re in reconciliation. That takes 100 percent commitment from both spouses. You may want to consider reposting this in the Just Found Out forum.

[This message edited by asc1226 at 12:04 PM, April 29th (Thursday)]

In my experience a WS isn't actually confused. They could say what they feel but it would reveal them plainly to be selfish.

"I want to see the AP without consequence and stay married to you."

That's what they want. To have cake and eat it too. It's really pretty simple. Most A's aren't actually exit A's. Some are, but most aren't.

No one wants to think they are filled with selfish and unrealistic desires. So instead of vocalizing those, they say, "I'm confused".

I agree with the other posters that say so long as there is anything but NC, then you still have an affair on your hands and you're not in R.

The marriage counselor ... has said I need to make things as pleasureable at home for her as possible and practice trying to understand her better

This is the advice I also got. Yes, it is the pick me dance and it is difficult to do, but the idea assumes you want to stay married. With a MC, their client is the marriage relationship, and so they advocate for the marriage.

Something I'm coming to terms with myself (so it is much easier said than done) is confronting the fact that I may be getting divorced. That is something I don't like to think about, but it is certainly a possibility. With my next IC my ask is going to be either to help me see that the M and rugsweeping is acceptable, or light a fire so I move toward D.

I hope this helps you, and I feel your pain. Your WW is completely clueless how much it hurts you.

The marriage counselor thinks my WW is still in a bit of a fog and has said I need to make things as pleasureable at home for her as possible and practice trying to understand her better

This right here is why MC is just not recommended until IC has been ongoing for a while.

Your marriage did NOT cause your ww to cheat. YOU did not cause your ww to cheat. I don't care if you were the worst husband on the planet (which you weren't), your ww choosing to cheat is 100% on HER. If she was unhappy, she could have handled it literally ANY other way other than deciding to cheat on her spouse.

Yes understanding is good, but it is far more imperative that your WW understand herself and why she would do something so hurtful to someone she vowed fidelity to. And IMHO, she can't do that without some pretty intensive IC.

You do not owe your ww 'understanding' of her affair.

Just to be clear, the pick me dance will not work. She doesn’t have to “choose” you because from her point of view she already “has” you, and she gets her boyfriend as well. Pretty sweet setup for her. Instead of rewarding her for her affair try giving her some consequences. Start moving away from her, doing things for yourself. Consult with a lawyer and get an idea of what divorce looks like in your area. In other words start moving forward out of infidelity. If she wakes up and pulls her head out of her ass and starts to follow great. If not, then she’s making her choice, and it’s likely the choice she would have made no matter how long you let her drag this out.

This is the problem w "reconciling" too quickly, and I hope we all are taking notes. You're in good company OP, there are

Your marriage counselor sounds like, at best, she has no idea how to deal with infidelity, and at worst, may be a sham. She sure is effectively teaching you the "pick-me dance", but the one problem with this is that it simply doesn't work, not when it comes to infidelity. (If you stick around, you will see that it is talked about an awful lot here for a reason!)

All these complaints your WW has about you to justify her affair--and yeah it is still ongoing at least emotionally--are simply excuses. Fix what she is complaining about now, and there will be something behind that. There's always something behind that.

Look, this is the problem with the "pick-me dance". Your wife already gave you her vows. She should *already* have your back. She doesn't get to choose between you and OM. By tap-dancing away for her after she broke her vows and betrayed you, in the hopes to win her back, you are actually looking weak.

And what about you and *your* happiness? Your wife may feel shame and regret, but that is not the same as remorse. If she felt remorse, she would instead be focusing on the pain she caused you AND your son, instead of just on how she is messing up her life and what her affair says about her. Does your MC ever bring that up.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 2:38 PM, April 29th (Thursday)]

Wow, so many red flags here. Very sorry:

1. You're doing the pick me dance. It ain't fun dancing around like a trained monkey is it? You might consider just stopping the dance and telling the organ grinder to knock it off.

2. Your MC is doing great harm recommending you are the one who must take the burden for making your WW feel comfortable. It's the other way around, brother.

3. Your wife's rejection of How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair is the biggest red flag of all. This is what my WW did, same song second verse. It is a stark demonstration of low EQ and lack of empathy.

It sounds to me like you have rug swept a lot and unfortunately enabled her shitty choices. This is giving her a respite to remain in the foggy fog (which is kind of a bull crap phenomenon, but whatevs).

If you want to actually R, then you're going to need to get harder about this lickety-split. I've limped along in limbo with my WW for four years, we aren't reconciled, and I don't think we will be. I can see the missteps. I hope you will stop doing the pick me dance, stop enabling her bad behavior, and stop listening to bad advice from an MC (which is about as common as dirt).

In my experience a WS isn't actually confused. They could say what they feel but it would reveal them plainly to be selfish.

"I want to see the AP without consequence and stay married to you."

That's what they want. To have cake and eat it too. It's really pretty simple. Most A's aren't actually exit A's. Some are, but most aren't.

No one wants to think they are filled with selfish and unrealistic desires. So instead of vocalizing those, they say, "I'm confused".

This 100 times. There's a whole lot of enabling and sugar coating of infidelity in our society, when really it's just crappy behavior motivated by selfishness and lust.

Prior to that one we both read a book recommended by the counselor "How to Help my Spouse Heal from my Affair". I thought it was spot on, but my WW hated it. Said it was inflammatory...

My wife said the exact same thing. The first year after D-Day v1.0, she fought tooth and nail against anything and everything in Linda MacDonald's book. Said that she hated it because it said that the A was the cheating spouse’s fault, said that reading it was demeaning, Yada Yada Yada. Basically, she was operating in the world of shame and didn't like being told that what she did was wrong.

Ultimately, what I read here and from the rest of your post, your wife has been cake eating. She is keeping you at home and her side piece at work.

When my wife told me that she was "confused" about what to do, I told her that there was nothing to be confused about. We were married, so dating other men wasn't an option. And if she didn't know if she was going to stay, then she was welcome to go, but she was the one who was going look our kids in the face to tell them.

She still tells me that was "abusive" to say those things. I've told her that it is her opinion and anyone who would know the actual story, would disagree.

You need to take control of the situation. You need to lay down the ground rules. She goes NC, breaks everything off and commits to healing herself and the marriage...or she goes out the door. She will say it's unfair. No, it isn't. It's a consequence of her choices. What is unfair is what she dumped into your lap.

Sorry that you're among us, brother. Keep posting to receive the wisdom from those who have been there, done that.

[This message edited by CaptainRogers at 3:03 PM, April 29th (Thursday)]

In my experience a WS isn't actually confused. They could say what they feel but it would reveal them plainly to be selfish.

First, I am a WW. I have done a lot of work on myself and I am still married today.

I do disagree about confusion. I was very, very confused. Affairs are very illogical, a lot of justifications are at play due to cognitive dissonance, and there is actually a good article here in the healing library about how "the fog" is nothing more than the fact a WS does this self-brainwashing.

An affair often starts on a slippery slope of opportunity and vulnerability. I wasn't too much older than your wife when I had the affair. The vulnerability I was experiencing was a few different things but there was for certain a mid-life crisis in play. People roll their eyes at mid-life crisis, but for those who have had one it's a real thing, and it's very much a crisis.

The crisis made me very depressed and unstable. That's not why I had an affair at all. I had one because that's what I chose. BUT, the reason I chose it was I was under the false impression that I was unhappy because I was married. I blamed my husband rather than really taking responsibility for that. So, when this other person was around making me feel good about myself, I didn't understand it was making me high on my own brain chemicals. I started feeling better, bolder, and I gave this man credit for that.

Affairs are addictive to some people. Any time no contact is broken - whether it's directly (talking, seeing them) or indirectly (looking at their social media, thinking about them in postive ways, etc) the addiction is fed. Without those things, depression rears it's ugly head in full force and after going back and forth for a while, it reinforces AP GOOD, Spouse bad.

A crack addict can't be cured while they are still smoking the crack pipe.

And, when you play the pick me dance, they are given the leeway to keep doing what they want with no consequences. You can't nice them out of an addiction.

Read about limerance on wikipedia. People think it's infatuation, it's not. It's a different, darker state of being than that. I had to have treatment for OCD because there are properties to this that are similiar to OCD.

There were a few things that helped me along the way. One, the AP was caught and dropped me like a hot potato. So, NC wasn't a choice or something I had to maintain. Secondly, my husband held his boundaries. He was never mean, but he certainly did not play the pick me dance. He showed me that I would lose him. That's a scary thing to do as a BS. I had to do that in return years later. I had the benefit of having done enough work to know I had to make myself happy and how, and that I could heal and divorce and it would work out. In other words, I had time to not feel invested in either outcome.

There needs to be requirements that she meets, and your boundaries around that need to be strong. Read the 180 in the healing library for some information about detaching.

Eventually I could see that I had projected onto the AP who I wanted him to be. That in reality he was not a caring person, he was a selfish person who didn't care about me. He was willing to blow up my world to get what he wanted. The therapist made me do a list about things I liked about the AP, I made it. Then she said "Now write on the other side the proof you have of that". Crickets.

I could have written volumes on my H.

I also want to say I have read both the books that were mentioned, the rising strong and how to help your spouse heal. I do not think they are at all at cross hairs with each other. She just doesn't want to feel bad about what she has done. That's very common, not facing what you did allows you to keep the highs of the affair going. If you have to face reality, it's a downer. She wants to be high.

And, you want a safe spouse. She needs to know you are not okay with sharing her. She needs to feel the natural consequences of her behavior.

You could lose her either way, but I agree with the others, I think your chances of losing her are higher with this pick me dance advice. Hope that helps. Happy to answer further questions if I can help.

Try going cold and initiating divorce. Then if she tries to act like you're being an asshole, then be a little bit of an asshole.

Bet you her tune changes real quick. And if it doesn't change, then you are on your way to being free of a cheater who is abusing you.

It will take your heart a while to catch up. But remember, she's been detaching from you a lot longer than you have from her.

***

Oh and her therapist can fuck off. I know it's marriage counseling, but it appears the therapist has chosen sides.

Also, individual therapy won't do a fucking thing for your wife unless she is truly remorseful and willing to do the hard work. Don't believe the hype on individual therapy. Most marriage therapists are also individual therapists. And most are pumping the same bullshit, keep 'em coming back enabling tripe.

Edit: I know this post is not reconciliation oriented, but your wife does not appear to want to reconcile. You cannot reconcile by yourself.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 3:39 PM, April 29th (Thursday)]

Oh- and there is a lot written by dr. Frank Pittman about limerance and romantic infidelity. Google him, he is an authority on the topic and when I read some of the articles he had written there were a lot of things that helped lead me out of my confusion.

The marriage counselor thinks my WW is still in a bit of a fog and has said I need to make things as pleasureable at home for her as possible and practice trying to understand her better (WW says the AP really understood her -

"Understood her"... Is she an adult or is she a child? The AP was kissing her ass so he could get into her pants. And that's what your counselor is recommending for you to do as well.

Affairs are all fantasy, unicorns, and rainbows. You think my fWH didn't turn himself inside out agreeing that he liked all this weird hippie shit that he didn't care about AT ALL just so he could get into some OW's crusty underpants? He sure as hell did. And... get this... he actually believed everything that came out of his mouth at the time. It's fantasy. It's Narcissus gazing into the pool, seeing what she WANTS to see and ignoring what she doesn't.

Your counselor isn't wrong. You can probably stay in this thing by placating her and letting her run roughshod over you. But is that how you want to live your life? Later on, when you feel like maybe it's YOUR TURN to air some grievances and that maybe she should show how she's grown and changed from her wayward mindset, she's going to cry foul and say you tricked her into R. I can guarantee you right now that if she had objections to McDonald's book, she is incapable of actually empathizing with you at this juncture, and if she's mollycoddled into R, that's not likely to change. Whatever story she's made up in her head that made cheating okay will have become HER TRUTH.

I can't tell you what to do, but I can tell you what I did when it was me. I came out of the gate swinging for the fence on divorce. After about a week, it was my WH who wanted more time to prove himself. So, I gave it to him. I figured after 30 years, I could wait 30 days. Of course, I caught him in contact with an OW before that time was out, and at that point he had about 30 seconds to decide if he was "all in" or "all out". And I meant it too. It was not a gambit or a tactic. I'm NOT going to be somebody's second choice and if I couldn't have reconciliation on MY terms, I didn't want it at all.

I think you have to ask yourself what you want your life to look like five years from now. Chances are pretty good that if you kiss her ass, you can get her to stay. But it's quite likely you'll be kissing her ass for the rest of your life if you do.

As a fWW, I agree that trying to "nice" her out of a wayward mindset is bad advice. I don't mean you should go nuclear, as some would advise, but she needs to hear that if she can't choose you immediately, you are taking yourself off the table.

If she runs to AP in those circumstances, it will hurt like hell, but you will save yourself a great deal more trauma by getting out of limbo.

Hikingout,

You have been extremely valuable in my journey and I take your posts quite seriously. I'm not in any way trying to dismiss what you are saying. I do think we largely agree, but perhaps I don't give enough credit to the self-rationalizations and cognitive dissonance as causing "confusion".

Affairs are very illogical, a lot of justifications are at play due to cognitive dissonance, and there is actually a good article here in the healing library about how "the fog" is nothing more than the fact a WS does this self-brainwashing.

I think that even during the affair, there is some part of you that *knows* that you don't want to leave, you don't want to be faithful (even though you think it is wrong), because you want the good feels. The cognitive dissonance is that the feel goods of the A are bad. You know this too be true. You want it to not be. So you make stuff up. Spouse bad, rationalizations etc.

Ultimately though, you had no intention of leaving your husband, and you just wanted the good feels to not stop. There was not a planned exit. There was not some master objective other than "keep feel goods going".

"What do you want?" often implies a "them or me" or something grander. Like there is some goal to be reached in having the A. The A is it's own hedonistic reward though and addictive, as you have pointed out. Allowing you to override your better judgment.

And so that means, for most people, they don't want to leave their partner, and they don't want the A to end. If you could cut through the cognitive dissonance and self rationalizations at the time, I think you would find this to be true.

A lot of marriage counselors are rugsweepers. Beware.

Trying to nice her back and doing the infamous “pick me dance” will lower your status while making her other man look strong.

Cheaters lie a lot as you’ve witnessed. The affair is ongoing.

It sounds like you are trying to help them hide the affair. Affairs work best in secrecy and the dark. You are not doing yourself any favors by hiding this.

Living in fear of her leaving is Bullshit. She’s already gone. Full exposure is the only thing that may end their affair. Right now you are keeping yourself in self imposed limbo.

Get strong and stay there. Impose the 180 no contact contained in the library. Upper left of this site.

People roll their eyes at mid-life crisis, but for those who have had one it's a real thing, and it's very much a crisis.

I mean, I'm having a midlife crisis now and I suspect so is OP (sleepless and all).

One neither of us asked for -- and it's a doozy, lemme tell ya.

So yeah, it's a real thing all right.

WW says the AP really understood her

Sleepless, I think what you may be seeing in this thread is that we've all seen this sort of thing before. My WW had the gall to tell me that her AP made her "feel like no man, ever." Really. Now that's some grade A horseshit, but it's what she said. Your WW is feeding you lines.

There are many WS's who do snap out of this (and yes, I do think hikingout makes good points with regard to limerence) and realize how horrid and toxic and destructive their actions and their words have been, but unfortunately it's often too late for their betrayed loyal long-suffering spouses, who often find themselves kinda not giving a crap about the marriage at the end and very meh after all the abuse..

I hope you will stop doing the dance, exit the dance floor and start looking out for yourself.

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:26 PM, April 29th (Thursday)]

WW says the AP really understood her

Sleepless, I think what you may be seeing in this thread is that we've all seen this sort of thing before. My WW had the gall to tell me that her AP made her "feel like no man, ever." Really. Now that's some grade A horseshit, but it's what she said. Your WW is feeding you lines.

Yup. Mine's 18 yo AP apparently was very wise and she "loved him with no boundaries because she didn't see him as broken". I remember being very hurt by that, but then I also remember that this was my husband that lived with and loved for 9 years and that I did all the non-glamorous real-life stuff with - sickness, ER trips, having the runs, barfing, morning hair, no makeup... You know, how REAL humans ARE. APs exist in this completely unrealistic bubble of fantasy. The truth is that they are just human too. And your ww can think all she wants that she is passing on this perfect fantasy life, but YOU know and I know that once you get into a relationship, all that pesky reality comes right along with it.

I know when you're in the throes of dealing with a dday and infidelity, it is really hard to see the forest for the trees, but please don't be afraid to call bullshit on things that really are just that.

I also know how hard this is (and I didn't do this, though I wish I had because mine tried this "poor me, so sad, so torn" stuff too) but if she is still 'torn', then remove yourself from her decision tree. "Wife, I know you feel torn, so I will do you the favor of making your decision easier and filing for D. Then you are free to go be with AP."

As a fWW, I agree that trying to "nice" her out of a wayward mindset is bad advice. I don't mean you should go nuclear, as some would advise, but she needs to hear that if she can't choose you immediately, you are taking yourself off the table.

Agree with this. Sorry if I wasn't clear, sleepless. By urging you to get harder about this situation, I wasn't urging you to be an asshole. Just to look out for yourself, make your boundaries crystal clear and do not brook the obfuscations, half truths and elisions she's giving you.

Bigger, another commenter, has a great script for these kinds of conversations. Hopefully he will weigh in here.

You're going to need to detach in this situation before you can even think about reconciliation.