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New Betrayed Husband

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ramius posted 8/7/2020 10:44 AM

Seems to me she didn’t really get upset and “broken “about this whole thing until she had the blow up with your daughter.

But if you ever start to have doubts, if you ever start a waiver in your resolve to remove yourself from her.

Just remember she had you drive hours away, to fix the AC/heating at her love nest. And then joked about it with him later.

That is cruel, and in my opinion evil. It’s also an indicator of what she’s willing to do when she has true, genuine desire for someone. She will do anything to get what what she wants. Including humiliating you for some extra tingles.

So she has shown that she is an Apex predator when it suits her. And she can also be a “broken, I turned my back on Jesus, damsel in distress,“ when it suits her.

The sooner you get this divorce over with the better.

squid posted 8/7/2020 10:49 AM

i guess that's why she believes that her A was caused by the absence of God in her life.

Her A was caused by the absence of character and integrity in her life. There, fixed it for her.

Stay strong, AH. I'm positive this is only the beginning of her unraveling into an even crazier witch. Her wrath will emerge soon.

This is why 180 is important. No more "sit downs" with her. If they say they want to chat just say there's nothing really more to say.

As much as her mother says she cares for you, she's always going to side with her daughter. Therefore, she's going to eventually try and sway you back with her daughter. It will turn into you vs. them.

GoldenR posted 8/7/2020 10:50 AM

Can we please get away from the "She was played by a playa" bullshit? She's an adult. She knows right from wrong. She was willing. Maybe she got played by her own stupidity, but that's it.

thatbpguy posted 8/7/2020 11:01 AM

Just remember she had you drive hours away, to fix the AC/heating at her love nest. And then joked about it with him later.

That is cruel, and in my opinion evil.

I agree with this. It has really stuck in my mind when I read this thread. It's one thing to betray, one thing to have to lie to get what one wants from the AP, but quite another to do this. It is shocking.

And she can also be a “broken, I turned my back on Jesus, damsel in distress,“ when it suits her.

I think people can turn their back on Christ- my wife went from a 'two hours a day in the Word and prayer' to leaving me for Mr. Moneybags. I have never truly doubted her faith, but her morality took a giant leap. I cannot pass any judgement on your wife, but some people do stray or walk away from their faith. With nothing to then hold to, they fall away like Judas. When their sins come back upon them, they try and find their faith again. I have no problems with that. But, the damage is done and there needs to be accountability.

GoldenR:

Can we please get away from the "She was played by a playa" bullshit? She's an adult. She knows right from wrong. She was willing. Maybe she got played by her own stupidity, but that's it.

Bless you for saying this. The thread has become an unruly mob. I get the feeling if this were a small town and she showed up, she would be stoned dead on the spot.

[This message edited by thatbpguy at 12:16 PM, August 7th (Friday)]

Buster123 posted 8/7/2020 11:06 AM

Ok, I understand she said she will fight till the end in an effort to stay married to you, but don't discard the possibility that she may change her mind about the assets split until you have a signed iron clad document prepared and verified by your attorney, "hope for the best but prepare for the worst".

she believes that OBS wants to get her real estate license revoked by suing her and the real estate company she works for.

Another reason to speed up the D process, if OBS follows through and complains with the real estate commission/authority in your state, they will conduct an investigation and with all the proof she has it would be a "slam dunk" and her license could be revoked permanently or for a year or two, she would be forced to learn a new trade and find a different type of job, she really risked it all for POSOM.

OTOH if OBS sues her and the real estate firm your WW will be fired or forced to resign. OBS seems determined to follow through, she has the resources and even offered to assist you with money, so your WW could be out of the job and unemployed for a very long time especially with the new reality of this pandemic and the current economic situation, once that reality hits her (which could be very soon) she may change her mind when it comes to the business and alimony, you may tell OBS to at least wait until the D is finalized so that the financial hit from the lawsuit come out of her share of assets after they are split, instead of marital assets, I hope your WW's E&O (Errors and Omissions) or Professional Liability insurance policy is up to date and that the limits are enough to cover it.

New betrayed Husband part 2:

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=648032

[This message edited by Buster123 at 10:31 AM, August 8th (Saturday)]

clouds777 posted 8/7/2020 11:30 AM

It does not matter why she called him. There is no reason on earth that is acceptable. Period. She is not owed a chance to explain! She is an adult. She made choices and those choices come with consequences. Just because she decided she doesn't like the consequences now does NOT mean she didn't already make the choice. She has to live with that. She stole your choices so it is not your role to console her now. It's ridiculous and so damn selfish that she keeps trying to get her own comfort back at the expense of your comfort. She lost control and she is trying to pry it back from you. There is no way you should agree to listen again to the recording. She is being extremely selfish and manipulative to think she can talk you out of anything. She still only cares to save herself, not you. Keep moving forward and ignore her.

[This message edited by clouds777 at 11:33 AM, August 7th (Friday)]

Thumos posted 8/7/2020 12:00 PM

She fucked up by calling him, she wasn't in her right state of mind, after he had been trying hard to contact her and her ignoring him and after she read my letter to her she wanted to end it with him once for all and threaten him with restraining order as I suggested in my letter. She asked me to go through the recording again in front of her mom and daughter to prove that she didn't call him to restart the A. she said she was adamant to end the affair and to stop all contact with him but he wasn't taking it like he always did in the past.

AH, a lot of things that waywards say have little grains of truth in them. That doesn't make what they're saying the overall TRUTH. This explanation has a lot of holes in it, not the least of which is she had no reason to call him. "I wasn't in my right mind" - that's nonsense. She's been doing this for TWO YEARS.

she admitted that she was heartbroken that she wasn't any special to him.

And ... scene! Deal breaker. Cut, check the gate, moving on.

she admitted she is ignorant when it comes to what it would take for a cheating wife to correct things and help me heal but she is willing to educate herself and " move mountains" for me

This is also puerile nonsense. Anyone with any empathy or emotional intelligence wouldn't have to "educate" themselves at all. They would be falling on their sword repeatedly. That's really all the advice for waywards to get their shit together amounts to. Fall on your sword over and over as many times as it takes. No guide is needed. If she wanted to move mountains she would have done it; she would already be doing it instead of calling OM behind your back.

she is willing to give me all the details and answer any questions about the A.

This isn't Perry Mason. You shouldn't have to ask. She could be doing this right now. She could have done it a week ago. She could be getting off her fat can and doing it right now instead of just talking about it.

she believes that OBS wants to get her real estate license revoked by suing her and the real estate company she works for.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I doubt the OBS could actually pull this off; otherwise we'd be hearing about half of the nation's realtors losing their licenses all the time in the news. There would be a shortage of real estate agents! But your WW doesn't know that, so let her sit with it.

She asked me to go through the recording again in front of her mom and daughter to prove that she didn't call him to restart the A. she said she was adamant to end the affair and to stop all contact with him but he wasn't taking it like he always did in the past.

Absolutely not. Your choice obviously but iI would strongly advise against this. It will just be an opportunity for her to try to manipulate and gaslight you and it is obviously a transparent bid to try to weasel her way back into her mother and daughter seeing her in a more positive light. She's crazy to suggest this but it shows real desperation on her part, so be careful with her now.

She's now staking too much on this call. She thinks it is a lynchpin. It is not. It is EVERYTHING else that has happened. She doesn't get it. And in any case, the call was not an "end it" call it was a fishing expedition. When she realized she had been played, she brought up Jenny. As I said, there are elements to what she is saying that are probably true. But she isn't being fully truthful and transparent with you about this at all. You know it. We all know it.

Also I am a devout Christian and I completely agree with others here who say your WW is using religion as a manipulation tool. It is wrong, very wrong to do this. Her understanding of discipleship seems tissue thin. I won't say there are no elements of her that aren't authentic about her faith. I'm not there. You are. But it's obvious she is using it as a springboard to try to improve her position and standing with you.

Your daughter's boyfriend is right to feel somewhat aggrieved about this in terms of how your WW treated him. Atheists are completely capable of being good, moral people -- and infidelity rates in Christian communities are as high as anywhere else. Objective morality (the moral law) is impossible without God, but that's for another discussion.

[This message edited by Thumos at 7:32 PM, August 7th (Friday)]

Robert22205https posted 8/7/2020 12:09 PM

I'm not an attorney. However, I believe you may be responsible for her legal fees, debts and judgements (law suit) up until you formally start the D process.

Your wife's legal fees alone for the lawsuit could crush her financially.

If there's any chance the OBS is suing your wife, you need to speak with your attorney ASAP for damage control.

Maybe it's as simple as getting the D formally filed and/or getting an signed agreement on how to split the assets.

And maybe your wife should consider transferring her property to a trust (prior to the lawsuit) to keep it out of the OBS's reach.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 12:11 PM, August 7th (Friday)]

steadychevy posted 8/7/2020 12:16 PM

The excuses of being played are plain bullshit. I got played by a player, romanced by a rogue, I didn't realize I was just a cheap piece of ass, I thought there might be a future for us. So what? So what?

This actually documents a huge weakness. All of this while married to the BS. Where's the commitment? Why did the player or rogue even have a chance? It's a weakness of integrity and morals. So what. Why did she go for it?

The opportunity presented itself. It sounded like wonderful adventure. She wanted to. She thought she would never get caught. So she did. The motivation of the AP doesn't matter. The motivation and actions of the WS does.

ETA: Not knowing what a WS should do to prove they are R material or to help with the BS's pain or whatever. I had no idea whatsoever what to do when I confirmed my WW's LTA. Never thought about it or researched it.

I soon was finding out how to deal with it. I was the one highly injured but I actively sought information. I was very soon in IC. She can figure out how to lie, keep from getting caught, arranging deceptive activities for a couple of years. She can figure out how to do things in an attempt to rectify.

[This message edited by steadychevy at 12:23 PM, August 7th (Friday)]

Robert22205https posted 8/7/2020 12:24 PM

She's a long ways from being a safe partner for you or the next guy. Whether you divorce her or not she needs to make herself a safe partner going forward.

1 - she needs to stop withholding information (being selfish, deceitful and manipulative) and maybe she can't...

2 - she needs to stop blaming the devil or anyone else

3 - she needs IC to identify why she allowed herself to commit adultery

Finally, she needs to stop asking and instead take the initiative and provide you with a timeline, including every conversation as well as what she was thinking and feeling before & after each 'date', and especially what she was thinking when she saw you afterward ...

You don't have to read it. But it's there if you ever wake up one day and 'need' to know.

DoinBettr posted 8/7/2020 12:36 PM

She fucked up by calling him, she wasn't in her right state of mind

I had some people push back on me about this, but after she was caught, she educated herself and found Jesus again. All her words, so that was the new her you were supposed to get if you stayed. Her "State of Mind" shouldn't put your marriage at risk.
How did it change in such a short period of time?
This shows she is never going to listen even when her marriage was teetering on the edge of a knife. She still trusted herself over the books, the church people, I'm sure the pastor, your MIL, and your daughter. She needs IC to fix this problem because it is never going to be fixed with prayer.
Ask her why she didn't tell you about this conversation with POSOM. I am sure she has some excuse, but overall, if she came and talked to you about it, things would have been 100% different. She has not be honest or truthful. She knew about the PI and that she was busted, but waited until the OBS got it to you to try to fix your marriage.
She knew about other women and this phone call, but hid that as well.
She is treating you as a child and not a partner who deserved to know everything in the marriage.
I asked about that sheet of paper because I would have simply written "The Truth" and "More to come". She would have failed her own test then. Maybe she would see how messed up she is at that point. Maybe not.

I see you ingesting the fire and brimstone, revenge posts, but you write about your sadness as all you communicate in person. Be careful with that regiment. You should figure out how to get some IC. It will help I think because you now have some pretty heavy baggage and trust issues. It is like reinforcing areas that have been weakened. It is to prevent future issues. Plus, you can tell your family, WW included, you are going to get someone who is a professional to talk to about the pain she has put you through.
She will eventually tell you that you were never in on R. It is going to hurt a little. Your trying was you sticking around this long. She had days to show improvement while you swallowed your pride and self respect.
Finish the D. Don't attack your WW. She is going to continue to be in your life and you don't want her to be able to make you out to be the bad guy.

Organic2003 posted 8/7/2020 12:37 PM

(((AH)))

She fucked up by calling him, she wasn't in her right state of mind, after he had been trying hard to contact her and her ignoring him and after she read my letter to her she wanted to end it with him once for all and threaten him with restraining order as I suggested in my letter. She asked me to go through the recording again in front of her mom and daughter to prove that she didn't call him to restart the A. she said she was adamant to end the affair and to stop all contact with him but he wasn't taking it like he always did in the past. She only questioned his other cheating when he kept insisting that he loved her, she told him she knew that he was lying and had other affairs, she told him she was a fool to believe she was special to him.
- she admitted that she was heartbroken that she wasn't any special to him.

As I have said several times and predicted what the surprise gift would be, she along with most every WS in history feels the need for "closure" she is just a common not a unique cheater. This was a LTR she believed she was special, when you let her know she wasn't special, she felt angry and hurt. She blew up her world to be a cheap ass. It is a good thing she now views her POSAP with disdain. This "fog" usually takes months to lift.

- she admitted she is ignorant when it comes to what it would take for a cheating wife to correct things and help me heal but she is willing to educate herself and " move mountains" for me.

This is exactly what I have been saying, she is clueless but is trying, she is learning remorse. Feeling someone else's pain is not easy for most humans. IMO she is a good candidate for R.

She is learning that love is - "God forbid she was hit by a bus, I would have carried her around for the rest of her life." BTW I did that for weeks for my 105 lb serial cheater when she was to sick to walk. She now cries about how bad she treated me and wants that back.

I also told her that D is good for all of us including our children. I assured her that I don't hate her and do not want to hate her one day, that's why I need to leave her, I explained that my lawyer wanted me to file on the ground of adultery but unless I really have to, I rather not tag her with that label. I reminded her that she contemplated divorce herself in the past so the notion isn't new. I explained to her what the lawyer told me about the different types of Divorce and why a consensual D is our best option.

Ah you are a man of integrity. I do think YOU need to D her. I do not believe you can recover from her 2 year LTR it fly's against everything you believe. It would kill YOU to stay married to her. If I am wrong you can change your mind and stop the D.

IMO you need to be selfish during the D process. Stop worrying about her. She knew the consequence of her affair could be D. Her mind might even change regarding the POSAP. How will you feel if she is with him and you are paying alimony and half your business and property. In the future you can pay some of her expenses in life if you choose to. I pay my serial cheating second wife's expenses, who was left with nothing, when I choose to.

- she said that she wants to apologize to OBS too but rightfully so OBS hates her and is determined to ruin her life. she told me that she tried reaching to her after the exposure to offer her apology and regret but OBS didn't want to hear anything from my wife and told here : "we're not done here, I will show you what regret is" then blocked her number. she believes that OBS wants to get her real estate license revoked by suing her and the real estate company she works for.

Holy sh.t she sure got into the wrong tigress den. Now she is about to get mauled, she is experiencing more consequences than most WS. Losing her job is one thing, she can find another, but her licence is a problem. You might want to ask your attorney about this. Now maybe you know why she is looking for a different career.

I'm going away for a week or so to distance myself from her, don't know where yet, My brother is looking to see if he can take an "emergecy" vacation from his job and go with me. if he can do it we may go to some beach for week if not I will probably head to Florida to see my old folks.

This is so important! Take care of YOU. Go fishing like Bigger said, you can't get Carp Covid.

(((AH))) No one deserves to be betrayed by the person they trusted the most.


[This message edited by Organic2003 at 1:50 PM, August 7th (Friday)]

Dismayed2012 posted 8/7/2020 13:57 PM

"She was seeking "closure" because she still has feelings for him, was jealous and felt betrayed, realized she was just a "cheap ass" and that her option to ride into the sunset with POSOM were NEVER real"

Reiterating the above. Also reiterating:

"22 minutes of closure and the closure only came after the Jenny thing. She also did not respond to you until after her talk."

The excuse that she wasn't in her right mind is bull. She knew what she was doing and she knew why. Like the two posters said above, she didn't contact him to call it off. She contacted him because she wanted to confirm what you'd written about the other women he cheated with. Notice that she didn't just take your word for it. She called the OM to get confirmation rather than believing what you told her. She thought he was a better man and had him on a pedestal over you. If he'd played it differently, she likely would've believed his lies over your truth and her reply to you would have been different. The Jenny thing was secondary but once his responses confirmed what you'd said, she likely realized that she was actively being cheated on also.

What she did is standard cheater behavior trying to determine if what she thought she had with the OM was real and if the OM was still a viable option if you divorced her. By the end of the convo with the OM she probably realized that what you'd said was true and that the OM was not a safe option if she wanted a monogamous relationship with him. That's when she replied to you realizing that you were her only solid option (plan B). Remember that he/she was planning their future together. It wasn't fantasy to her.

The fact that she lied and again didn't tell you what she was doing is further proof that your WW is not R material. She was begging you back knowing that she'd broken her word to you yet again. If the OBS hadn't informed you of the deception, you'd still be on the fence considering R.

Now she's desperate because up until the phone call she thought she had two options and now you've informed her that her plan B is no longer an option. This is temporarily throwing her into a tailspin where she's desperately gripping onto a piece of marriage paper. Realize that her desperation may turn to anger soon; feeling like she's been unjustly wronged and/or the punishment is more than the crime (hence her saying that she never wanted to divorce you).

Realize that you have options. Go over all possible scenarios in your head and determine your coarse of action for each. Protect yourself physically, financially, and emotionally. You have a great life ahead of you. Over time the pain gives way to relief and contentment. You are the prize. Make choices that are in your future best interest. Take care of yourself.

Thumos posted 8/7/2020 14:19 PM

You should figure out how to get some IC. It will help I think because you now have some pretty heavy baggage and trust issues.

Go see a betrayal trauma specialist for yourself. Make sure it's that specialty. They are everywhere now.

This is exactly what I have been saying, she is clueless but is trying, she is learning remorse. Feeling someone else's pain is not easy for most humans. IMO she is a good candidate for R.

She should get no pass here. Remorse should not have to be a "learned" skill. As Yoda would say, "Do, or do not. There is no try." Don't fall into this trap of waiting for her to "get it" - I myself fell into that trap and it's hellish. Supplying her with books, asking her to do things over and over. Just don't do it. Tell her to figure it out. In the meantime, move with all haste to get the best D possible for you.

A truly remorseful person will not fight divorce. In fact, if she's remorseful she'll pay your legal bills. She'll reimburse your joint finances for money spent on the affair. She'll waive alimony and try to give you the best divorce possible as a way of demonstrating her remorse. That's what truly remorseful people do. They fall on their sword over and over without asking why or even thinking about it. You'll know pretty quick whether she has any actual remorse by how she either works to get you the best divorce possible or fights you on it and makes it nasty. If the latter, it's just more confirmation you're doing the right thing.

One more time: hard 180 does not mean you should be intentionally cruel. Protect yourself, protect your heart, hold you head high and maintain your values. You can be kind without being manipulated. You've already been manipulated enough. Being kind without being manipulated means being direct and short (say no and mean it), setting firm boundaries with her on time and subjects of talking or emailing or texting, ending contact when it escalates or if you simply feel uncomfortable, take "sorry" out of your vocabulary, and don't feel the need to respond to every bit of stream of consciousness she throws at you. If she grows hostile, don't be a pushover (and you aren't so no worries there). If she demands an answer on something you're not prepared to talk about then say "I'll get back to you when I feel it is appropriate. There's no emergency."

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:24 PM, August 7th (Friday)]

Mrhealed posted 8/7/2020 14:23 PM

AH

IMO, your WW wanting another clousure means that the relation she has with OM, at least on her head, was real and an important one.

In other hand ,the statement of Jenny means nothing, is not the same of nothing was going on with Jenny...she knwe but didnt want to see...

On a brigth side, there may not be any fondings moments with her AP anymore. She Will good not good memories of AP much longer.

She can tell her self now that her A wasnt real, that all the Talk was empty, but the truth is that the A was real and all plans, moments and feelings were for real, not until OBS found the A, but when OM show his true colors

For your WW the fall just begun!!

Her changing carrers must be remates to OBS. Ask directly your WW about It, as your kids may be affected. Who knoes about the A and what versión. Last thing you need is people talking behind you back, and your kids back


[This message edited by Mrhealed at 2:24 PM, August 7th (Friday)]

Mrhealed posted 8/7/2020 14:27 PM

The public fall out of her affair, may not be by OBS only, but the other people that knew and spread the gosip... Affairs have many ramifications that reach many people and last many years. Your WW is about to undertand the magnitude of her doings

[This message edited by Mrhealed at 2:36 PM, August 7th (Friday)]

DictumVeritas posted 8/7/2020 14:54 PM

AH, since the OBS may be coming for your WW, please see your lawyer about how to protect yourself against debt and expenses due to legal actions, their sanctions and liabilities as a result thereof, including possible liability due to liquidation even before the D is finalized.

You don't want to loose what you built due to legal actions against your wife. If your wife for example had any discrepancies in a Trust account she might have administrated, the civil sanctions can sink your entire estate.

You need to protect yourself against loosing everything you built through your wife's horrid actions.

Look after yourself.

ETA:

The OBS needs to know who Jennie is ASAP.

Maybe talk to her as to co-ordinate legal action against your wife as to minimize impact against yourself, since you are in the same boat, she may be receptive.

[This message edited by DictumVeritas at 3:00 PM, August 7th (Friday)]

thatbpguy posted 8/7/2020 14:59 PM

I'm going to offer a few counterpoints. Not that I necessarily believe them, but I find a certain amount of logic and base it upon experience from these sites. Also, to try and keep this balanced.

Starting with her last call to the POS. I get it. She had sent the NC email and he was harassing her. She felt compelled to tell him that the betrayal had ended. So she finally called. I would have done so as well. I see nothing sinister with this at all. In fact, it ended up well as he dropped his bomb on her that she was nothing more to him than a sidepiece. I think that is when the light went on for her.

Back to church and God. Again, perfectly normal. Things are clicking in that she has destroyed a good man (her husband- sorry, had to say that so a few would understand), destroyed her marriage, destroyed the family, heavily damaged her children and jeopardized her career doing the most unethical thing possible. In her burgeoning shame, she turns to God. I would as well. She is seeking some solace and comfort- who wouldn't?

I can also appreciate she wants to salvage the marriage. Nearly all betrayers do in the initial stages of being found out. She doesn't know how to just yet. Maybe she will get that figured out with some help and maybe she won't. But I would want to try if I were in her shoes. Why this makes her an evil bitch makes no sense to me.

A new career. As a professional in her field, she fully gets it. These are ethical lines and she has crossed them in aces. Does that cause her to lose her license? I doubt it. I deal with doctors who have betrayals with patients, staffers, vendors... no rules about that in the 14 states I deal with. Who knows, maybe for her profession in her state there is. However, were it me and my career was the catalyst for my betrayals and the pain I am starting to see... I'd probably look for another profession as well. Initially out of guilt and shame, and then as she realizes it will have to be done if she wants to salvage what she can with her relationships to you and the children. Again, I'd do the exact same thing.

What I'm trying to say is her little world of betrayal is over, she realizes she meant zero to her lover, she is just starting to see the damage she has done and is taking all the initial steps I would think a betrayer would. I see an effort to start making amends there. For this, so far, I find grace.

Ok, all that said, does that mean there is any sort of obligation to try and R. Nope. None whatsoever. We live by the fruits of our ways. But what I am saying is that I don't find any fault with what has transpired since dday. Seems perfectly normal for someone waking up and wanting to try and salvage what she can.

As to what AH may do, is up to him as he follows his heart and mind. Whichever way, I would fully support.

ChamomileTea posted 8/7/2020 15:03 PM


You did great. You handled that perfectly; compassionate but firm. You explained yourself very well by letting her know that you feel like this is best for everyone, particularly the part where you told her that ending the marriage allows for less acrimony in the long run. Very well done. Kudos!


ETA:

..she wasn't in her right state of mind, after he had been trying hard to contact her and her ignoring him and after she read my letter to her she wanted to end it with him once for all and threaten him with restraining order as I suggested in my letter.

This part was still "wayward". She was still "spinning". Yes, she called to put the final END to it, but her motivation was most likely to confront him about he other women. From her POV, the POSUM has been telling her she's the only one for a couple of years now, and just like any other scorned woman, it's only natural that she'd want to call him out.

It's water under the bridge, but still... it's spin.

ETA:

... so for the first time I have a piece of information I can give to OBS.

This would be a great time to let the OBS also know that you need your STBX to keep her job so you don't end up paying alimony. I get that she wants her pound of flesh, we've all been in her shoes. But attacking at work will have a negative affect for your entire family, not just your WW.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 3:27 PM, August 7th (Friday)]

UnderCover posted 8/7/2020 15:10 PM

Bless you for saying this. The thread has become an unruly mob. I get the feeling if this were a small town and she showed up, she would be stoned dead on the spot.

I'm fairly hard on waywards on other forums but some have piled in relentlessly
She isn't as bad as some and worse than others but amazingly seems to be getting a couple of things right without the advice of a forum
Imagine if she had the sense to go to a forum earlier

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