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New Betrayed Husband

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UnderCover posted 7/30/2020 18:57 PM

If this has been going on for six years it’s unlikely that the A started 2 years ago. The facts don’t work out that way if she has been playing the role you describe for that long. Or it may not be her first rodeo.

That part from AH stuck out with red flags on red flags

Stinger posted 7/30/2020 19:23 PM

I read her response. Others have already pointed this out. So, just count me among those who say she is blaming you and has little insight into herself.

You write well, express your feelings,are, apparently, devoted to your kids and wife. WTF did your wife expect from you? I doubt, seriously, you ignored her alleged pleas for help or were unappreciative of any overtures she claims to have made.

WSs manage to convince themselves of all kinds of BS, as she has alluding to your supposed deficiencies and neglect.

It is much more likely that she was insensitive to your needs and neglectful of them.

You have a very insensitive, selfish, immature wife. She lacks empathy.

ramius posted 7/31/2020 02:39 AM

M1965’s post is very insightful. She has found Jesus and her love for you.....at the most convenient time.

She is making her necessity a virtue.

squid posted 7/31/2020 05:47 AM

Wow. The smell of Unicorn farts is making me giddy. If she was Pinocchio, her nose would be eight feet long.

M1965, you are firing on all cylinders.

And I think Thumos offers some great insight as to how D can work for you leaving the door open for R later on, if you are still thinking about that. Which, by your actions, seems like that is what you are contemplating. This is understandable. I wanted very much to try and save my marriage. But my XWW did not want to put in the effort.

Either way, you make your own choices and we will support you.

But most importantly, as I've said for I think the third time, you need to accept her for who she is and act accordingly. Don't fall for her smoke and mirrors a second time.

GoldenR posted 7/31/2020 06:12 AM

Reading your wife's letter, everything comes off very clinical. I think her 2 yr affair (or maybe 6yrs cheating?) has desensitized her to you. She is trying very hard to say the right thing (and failing) but she is failing bc she's neither remorseful nor even regretful. She simply wants life to carry on with you as it was, but she feels no true love for you.

Tigersrule77 posted 7/31/2020 06:25 AM

In reading some of the other comments, one of the biggest things missing in her letter is any kind of explanation for her actions. Her analogy of the shooting and paper targets was weird. But what she doesn't address is, after she found out that she shot you full of holes, and you ask why did you do this? She ignores that issue.

The simple answer is, she enjoyed it. She like the attention and excitement. And she didn't think she would ever be caught.

By the way, your WW's ego is HUGE. When you stated that the OM dumped her, she showed you a text that he was still contacting her to prove she wasn't dumped. Really? Is she so important she has to bring that up? Is that supposed to make YOU feel better, that her AP still wants her?

AHguy, you've been quiet, I hope you are OK. We know you are struggling with a lot. I hope you are receiving the support you need, here and elsewhere.

BeyondRage posted 7/31/2020 07:35 AM

The simple answer is, she enjoyed it. She like the attention and excitement. And she didn't think she would ever be caught.

Exactly, but for some reason so many folks just have to dig for something much more complicated, especially us guys. Too many of us seem to be unable to accept that.

When you stated that the OM dumped her, she showed you a text that he was still contacting her to prove she wasn't dumped. Really? Is she so important she has to bring that up? Is that supposed to make YOU feel better, that her AP still wants her?

More importantly AH, she wasn;t even going to tell you he has been contacting her until you "challenged" her power over him. She intended to continue to LIE by omission. And to date you still do not know if he has been in her office since you posted.

So again, trying to make it easy for you to make an informed decision, here are the four poly questions, but I doubt seriously if she will agree which should tell you something.

(1) have you had sexual relations of any kind with any other men other then AH or OM since we have been married?
(2) have you seen OM or talked to him at anytime other than what you have told me since
--------, ( you fill in the date)
(3) do you have any form of app or electronic communication that I do not have the pass word for or am not aware of. Of course, that assumes she has bothered to give those to you since you have not agreed to her terms.
(4) did you at any time consult an attorney regarding divorce.

Any qualified examiner can tailor these to what you want. My suggestion is for you to sit her down, look into her eyes and ask her these yourself, not in an e mail or text. Record the answers with your cell phone and tell her you are doing it and that you suggest she is totally truthful without threatening anything.
After she answers, then you tell her you want her to verify those answers with a polygraph test.

She should be begging to do that but she is not. It all depends on if you meet her demands.

masti posted 7/31/2020 09:14 AM

AHGuy has not posted for a while now. Hope you are doing alright and your children are supporting you. Take care and do what feels right for you.

Waggingthedog posted 7/31/2020 09:41 AM

I know you might still be reading this looking for guidance. I want to present this by way of an analogy.

To start, no one is going to think less of you no matter how you decide to proceed. You’re in a horrible spot and weighing your options. The people here just wish to provide the advice that, sometimes, they wish they took and advice they wish they had when they went through their struggles. All of us here are hurt in the same way, but some of the advice comes from a situation with different fact patterns and different people. You have professionals in the area of infidelity from all walks of life and the advice is all over the place. The person that has to live with the decision is you – there is no one size fits all template for these decisions.

The analogy I want to use is a medical one.

One day you wake up and your right arm is swollen and extremely painful. It’s not moving, or barely moving. You go and see the doctor and to your shock, it’s an infection. A terrible infection. It’s not your fault that you have this infection, but you have to deal with it. Maybe you lament that you should have eaten healthier, or not engaged in some activity that exposed you to that risk. But, those considerations are past; they have no bearing on your current situation going forward.

The doctor gives you the prognosis. If you do nothing then the infection will spread and possibly kill you. Your choices are these:

The doctor can give you a round of very serious and expensive medication that has some really nasty side effects, but you might be able to keep the arm if the medication works. If you do keep the arm, then it will never really function the same way. You might regain some function, with a lot of physical therapy, but it is not likely that it will ever be the same. If you take the medication, you will have the side effects, but the infection might still spread even with the medication. There is a slim outside chance that the arm will return, and you can make it stronger, but it won’t ever be the same. (This is reconciliation)

Another choice is to cut the arm off. The plus side of this is that the dangerous infection won’t kill you or impact other organs immediately. The downside of this is that you lose your arm. And, you will always have a feeling of a phantom limb. Your life will be changed in a day. You might be depressed about it for a time, but you will live for sure. It’s just the arm. (This is ending the relationship.)

The last choice is to do nothing, watch the infection spread, and see if your own immune system is enough to fight off the infection from the rest of your body. Doing nothing will almost certainly result in death. (This is rug sweeping.)

How do you choose?

The first two options both suck, objectively. The final option is objectively stupid.

How do you decide what to do? You have limited time, and the effects of both of those first two choices are life altering regardless of how you decide.

In the first, you take the medications, the terrible side effects, and you may still lose the arm to the infection or possibly more of your body. In the second, you lose the arm, but save the body. You may be plagued with the ‘what ifs’ if you’d taken the medication and saved the arm. You’ll have the phantom limb to deal with for a very long time.

There are no good choices, only less bad choices depending on your situation.

I’ve been through the LTA gambit, and it’s really mind boggling. There is no way to know what parts of your history are real, and what are fake. Every ‘I love you’ over the years – family vacations, anniversaries, life events… all of them are tainted. You can cut off the future, but you can’t change the past.

To me, I have done a huge amount of pondering after the end of my marriage… what is love? In my opinion, it’s something that encompasses four subparts: trust, respect, attraction and friendship. Maybe there’s something deeper to it too, but I can’t put that part into words.

An affair, for the duration of it, shows a complete lack of respect and destroys trust for the other party. The person going into the affair does not respect you prior to (for a time) or during the affair. Here’s another analogy… say you go into work and you’re exposed to COVID. You know you’re exposed to it. Your employee tested positive and is in the hospital. If you respect your spouse, do you then go home and give them a kiss every morning, sleep in the same bed, use their toothbrush and so on… without telling them? If you respect them and care for them you don’t. You let them decide if they want to be exposed and handle the situation together. This is the affair aspect with STDs. If you WW knew the other man, and knew he had other affairs, and in fact didn’t know where he had been before or during the affair… then she was exposing you to STDs without telling you. It’s an objective lack of respect. This also flows into other areas… public standing if she got outted, financial issues, issues with the kids. It’s a complete lack of respect for the family and you.

Then there are the other two parts… attraction and friendship. Friends don’t stab friends in the back and humiliate them (at least good friends). And, let’s face it. Was she really attracted to you during the affair? Think back. There’s no competing with the thrill of the new sexual partner. Think she just ‘took care’ of you while waiting on her lover? You may not have had a dead bedroom but my guess is that she didn’t exactly bring her A-game home. By way of analogy, I got a statement after D-day that, and I quote, “I’m not sure that I was ever attracted to you.” That one hurt. But it’s what she believed. My guess is your WW probably felt the same, even if she wouldn’t say it.

This is now what you’re dealing with. It’s the infection. You’ve found you’re living in the Truman Show – a simulation – where the laughtrack is on but you can’t hear it. And if that lack of respect and trust continues it will slowly cause you more and more harm. Some people go off the deep end. Don’t be one of them. You can take control of the show, get out of the show, or just accept it and live in it.

So, here’s where you are. You’ve got some time for stasis. You can gather your thoughts either with or without filing for divorce. These times are messy and there are no right answers… only right for you answers.

But there are also some non-starters for reconciliation after an LTA. My list was as follows:

No contact with the other person – none at all. A post nuptial agreement (I didn’t want a terrible divorce if she left me. I wanted a fair asset split in place so she and I knew what would happen if we decided to end it. My fear was she left me for him.) I needed a show of commitment in another love language. And I needed the option for a polygraph test.

I did reconciliation for a year. It was a disaster.

She gave me the post nuptial agreement (I could have been far, far worse in a divorce than I was in that, but I had kids and didn’t want bad blood for their sakes.). A lawyer friend of mine advised me I could have gotten a much better settlement than I agreed to if I had gone nuclear, but I didn’t want that impact on my children. She also seemed to be interested in saving the marriage… on the outside. I was really hoping it worked. It wasn’t about losing face, standing, family or things… I didn’t want to lose her.

But, then, it fell apart.

She called my bluff, and had contact with the other man. Then she said she wasn’t going to take the polygraph test. I never had an intention of putting her through one, but I also knew the option would keep it honest… as long as she was willing to take it, I had some hope that she was honest. Saying that she wouldn’t do the test killed it for me.

So, I said I was going to divorce. I half hoped that she would pull her head out of her hindquaters. But, she ran right back to her other man. So I filed. Again, I thought that maybe she would change, but she never did.

At the end of the divorce, I think the dagger in the heart, was when she said, “OM thinks you and I are meant to be together.” I felt a part of me die when she said that.

I also still remember the last time that she tried to convince me to stop… she never said, “I can’t imagine losing you” but instead “I don’t want to be divorced.” Her desire to reconcile was to save face and for our children. It wasn’t anything to do with love as I define it.

In my case, I let the infection spread for a time until I could not take it anymore, and I lost the arm anyway.

Some here have had success with reconciling after an LTA. But there are segments of this advice that are cliché because they work.

The first piece of this is that people that have affairs are less invested in their primary relationships than the other party, for whatever reason. Think about it. If someone came along and said, “I’ll give you $20 if you put your entire net worth at risk, you would call them stupid and say absolutely not. But that’s the gamble that someone having an affair is willing to take. It shows a complete lack of commitment to take such a serious risk if they actually valued the relationship. But, our society is filled with gamblers that will sometimes take that risk. They’re reckless or simply don’t care. They chase the high.

The second cliché is to value yourself highly. You’re a prize – and you are even though you’re not perfect. You’re a hardworking man, a good provider, a good father, a self starter and a moral person. You’re not abusive, a drunk or a criminal. You’re not perfect, but there are many people out there interested in a man like you. A comedian, Daniel Tosh, once had a line in a comedy special. “It’s not you versus some s***K, honey. It’s you versus eevveerryyy s***K. See how the scale shifts?” While that’s a crude analogy, it’s accurate. Do you know how many women want a loyal, hardworking man? For some, it’s like finding a unicorn. Want to date a younger woman? Yup, it can happen. Want to hook up on a first date? Very possible. Your self esteem is so far in the gutter right now that you can’t see it. Become the man that women find sexy. You can do it. If you want to. Hit the gym, lose some weight, get some new clothes and find your old hobbies.

But more, internalize that. You’re the prize. That’s the attitude you have to have, no matter how this plays. Your WW, and this sounds harsh, is a serially cheating forty-year-old with kids. Her value on the dating market is…low. If you’re a guy and started dating a woman and asked… how did your last marriage end, and the answer was “I had affairs” what would you do? Well, if you’re smart, you might get laid a few times being sure to use protection, but would you risk your finances getting married to someone like that? Some do, but it’s not smart at all. Why put all of your work at risk on a gambler addicted to the high?

At this point, your mindset shouldn’t be “how do I convince her to stay in this marriage” but “what do I need to stay in this marriage?”

Her letter to you was, in my opinion, probably objectively truthful and somewhat encouraging, but something she will look back on in a few months in disgust. Switch the roles in it. Say you’re in her shoes. Would you write “I’m sorry honey, you never appreciated me or my sexuality. I needed to experiment with all these other women. I needed that release and adventure. I tried, but you didn’t seem interested at all. So I had to explore this without telling you. I really like being masculine with women, and you just didin’t want it. Sure, I did things for these other women I never did for you… I talked about emotions, bought them expensive presents, took them on vacations… by the way, I racked up 10K in credit card debt doing this… but it’s because you never appreciated my need to have a lot of sex.” You’d be labeled a pig. All of her friends would call you a monster and selfish. Just switch the roles, and say it was you telling her this. What mindset would you have to have to say that?

So you’re back at your decision… what should you do?

That’s on you and only you. But, you’re already doing the things that you need to be doing already… lawyer and such.

Here’s another piece of advice. Get out for some you time away from the house and this entire mess. Go think this over and contemplate what you want your life to look like. Take some time off from the drama. Get away from everyone else’s opinions and find your own opinion.

Also, lay off the booze. First, it clouds your judgment for a few days. Second, you can do something incredibly dumb that can be used against you later. There’s just no good that comes from it at all. It numbs the pain, but you have to feel the pain to get better from it.

You can decide not to rush the decision of divorce or keeping the marriage going, but get out of town for a bit (even in covid) and get some perspective. You need to be in a headspace where you’re not being influenced by the drama. You need to be away from her for a bit. My guess is you’re scared that she will go back to the OM… but she’s already done that for two years, whats a few more weeks? Go do you for a bit. Maybe rent a boat for a bit, or go on a motorcycle. Find an AIRBnB in the mountains. Get moving for a bit and you’ll be happier. Get a disposable phone and give the number to two other emergency contacts and your business but ignore your WW for a bit. And then you can decide what you want to do about your life.

Good luck friend, however this works out. Be the best version of you that you can be.

NuckingFuts posted 7/31/2020 10:33 AM

AHGuy has not posted for a while now. Hope you are doing alright and your children are supporting you. Take care and do what feels right for you.

Lets not forget he runs a heating and air conditioning business and it's the middle of summer, so he's got plenty to do. I wouldn't expect too much from him during the day, particularly given the number of times he's commented he doesn't like to use his phone.

AHGuy, I agree with the others that the cheating probably started 6 years ago and this isn't her first affair. I think you should go ahead and let your wife know you don't believe he's her first affair and see where that takes you.

KingofNothing posted 7/31/2020 11:23 AM

Lets not forget he runs a heating and air conditioning business and it's the middle of summer, so he's got plenty to do. I wouldn't expect too much from him during the day, particularly given the number of times he's commented he doesn't like to use his phone.

Exactly. AHGuy's story is very compelling. To many of us it seems fairly black and white. We're on his side and want to see him come out of infidelity. With all that said the man has to make a living, and is out all day during busy season. I'm deliberately cutting back on the lengthy replies for that reason, especially if five other people have said it first.

Cooley2here posted 7/31/2020 11:29 AM

There are so many studies of the brain that information comes out almost every day. By taking actual pictures of brains as people think and feel they get an idea of which part of the brains work better. No one has any idea how damaging to the actual make up of the brain childhood abuse and neglect is. It alters the brain. I want to stress that. It alters the brain. Some people are stuck at age 3 and others at puberty. It takes an enormous amount of work with therapists who are very highly trained in childhood abuse and neglect for any change to be made. For those of you, men and women, who haven’t had a good solid foundation as children you are going to bring those wounds with you. The wounds in your brains. For those of you who are lucky enough to have a good genetic base and then a loving caring childhood there are good chances you’re not going to be a cheater because you have a very powerful ability to form deep bonds with other people. You can overcome feelings of attraction because you have a very good grasp of reality. For those people who are wounded there are no barriers. They never got a chance to form them. I don’t excuse cheating, murder, rape, theft or any other aberrant behavior on childhood. People know right from wrong. If you are married to someone who completely ignores the culture you live in, the spoken/unspoken rules they shoud live by, and the dedication you need, they’re not good marriage material. I guess the bottom line is you can’t change another person. They can make 1000 promises but they have to do so much work, so much heavy lifting, to overcome things from the past. One thing that is missing in many cheaters is empathy. They cannot put themselves in your place. Unless or until they can they are not going to be good spouses.

Thumos posted 7/31/2020 11:42 AM

For those of you who are lucky enough to have a good genetic base and then a loving caring childhood there are good chances you’re not going to be a cheater because you have a very powerful ability to form deep bonds with other people.

The brain is neuroplastic - meaning the brain is capable of physically changing through the will of the person who owns it. Lots of research on this.

I had a rough childhood, only child with no father the first 10 years followed by a stepfather who was an alcoholic and abusive. I never cheated or strayed from WW. I pair bonded for life (or so I thought) and she was and is my one and only.

DIFM posted 7/31/2020 13:39 PM

I had a rough childhood, only child with no father the first 10 years followed by a stepfather who was an alcoholic and abusive. I never cheated or strayed from WW. I pair bonded for life (or so I thought) and she was and is my one and only.

And likewise, my fWW was a child of two loving parents, no divorce, and an extended loving set of grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins. With family gatherings and no mention or evidence of abuse or hostilities. She was in many school activities and had many close high school friends that she has kept close with over many decades. She was not into drinking or drugs. Never arrested. During her worst years of choice making, no one abandoned her as a hopeless case. She has had love and support all her life.

Yet, she was as fucked up in her cheating as any cheater with storied childhood of one parent, no friends, or disconnected extended family. As Thumos well noted, the brain is capable of physically changing through the will of the person who owns it. It is capable of taking a less than stellar childhood and fighting off the demons of self pity in favor of character and healthy choices.

Almost everyone has a story worthy of pity, to some degree. None of it rises to the level of reasonable excuse.

AHGuy posted 7/31/2020 13:56 PM

AHGuy has not posted for a while now. Hope you are doing alright and your children are supporting you.

Thanks for asking, it’s been a busy day and I’m still doing some work, I have an update in regard of the legal part of this, I consulted a second lawyer this time face to face and I got a clear understanding of my situation and some important information that would like to bring to your attention. II’m going with this lawyer for sure. Your comments were eye opening , I was an idiot for ignoring all her cheating signs I continue to be an idiot by being passive, fuck that I deserve better no one deserves to be disrespected. I explain more when I get home.

Jameson1977 posted 7/31/2020 14:05 PM

AHGuy, that is great to hear! Really like your attitude. You absolutely deserve better than this!!

You aren’t an idiot, we have all been where you are and I felt the same way, but I can tell you, you aren’t an idiot.

ShutterHappy posted 7/31/2020 14:17 PM

I was an idiot for ignoring all her cheating

The truth is nobody will look for those signs until you experience it. You just don’t expect that.

As far as I know, there’s no “how to know if your spouse is cheating” 101 course in high school

beenthereinco posted 7/31/2020 14:32 PM

Nobody is an idiot for loving someone completely.

Buster123 posted 7/31/2020 14:44 PM

I was an idiot for ignoring all her cheating signs I continue to be an idiot by being passive, fuck that I deserve better no one deserves to be disrespected.

You were definitely NOT an idiot, you were/are a straight up guy who simply trusted his W, you're not the first nor be the last to have been told by OBS, you have been with her for decades so you trusted her until she got caught and destroyed that trust and her family along with it, btw I hope you're not wearing your wedding ring anymore and tell her to do the same (she doesn't need to pretend anymore and it's obvious the rings didn't mean anything to her during the A), and if you ever decide to give R a try (before or after D)she should have to pay for new ones should you decide to stay married or D then eventually re-marry her.

It seems like the shock is wearing off and you're finding your anger and are ready to take action which is a good thing, good job on meeting with an attorney one on one to get the ball rolling, I know your busy so take your time, we'll wait for your update.

rugswept posted 7/31/2020 14:49 PM

Real love and trust keeps us from seeing the truth. I had a story somewhat like yours. An 18 month LTA where my wife went through a bunch of changes (workouts, "out with girls", lies about where she was going).

Sweet lovable her, going out to be some guy's porn star. There were SO ffffing many clues, duhs, and trails that I ignored ... thinking, no, no she wouldn't and couldn't do something LIKE THAT.

Then the day comes when the blinders come off and I realized it was much much worse than I had thought or even imagined.

Don't feel pressure from anyone here on what you do. Only you know your whole story.

THE THING about your case is SHE WON'T FFFFING OWN WHAT SHE'S DONE. She's not even close to owning it. That is really shitty.

I rugswept it and let it go. DON'T BE ME. FIND OUT EVERYTHING and make sure she gets what it means and what is does to be out there whoring like that with some man who is telling her lies.

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