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Almost one year since dday 1

Pages: 1 · 2 · 3

WontBeFooledAgai posted 2/18/2020 18:42 PM

I can understand why your BH gets angry. Frankly, it sounded to me that you made all this all about YOU--your anxiety, your triggering. So now after all you did, it is upon him to be reassuring you?

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 6:58 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)]

Change4thebetter posted 2/18/2020 19:04 PM

Frankly, it sounded to me that you were being extremely selfish here. You made this all about YOUyour anxiety, your triggering. So now after all you did, it is upon him to be reassuring you?

WontBeFooledAgai I didnít mean for it to come across that way although yes, I can understand why it may as itís my thread and my perspective. Iím not here to make it about myself or get any sympathy. I am not questioning anything my BH says or does and I am understanding that it all comes from what I did.

I focused on my response to his anger/trauma/pain and my mistakes because the advice that Iím asking for is how to get myself out of a poorly guided cycle without getting myself into another poorly guided cycle.

I am NOT asking for him to reassure me and I am NOT here to talk about my BHís exact reactions bc any anger and blame he expresses is entirely justified and not up for debate. Iím asking for help and Iím asking for guidance on what would be the healthy and correct way for me to react for the sake of my BH and our M.

Does that make sense to you? Itís not ďomg, woe is me, BH made me so anxious and caused me to F up.Ē But rather my bodies response to his anger is causing him more pain and anger and I need to put an end to that. Iím asking for help as to how I can do this.

WontBeFooledAgai posted 2/18/2020 19:22 PM

Have you asked him what he needs from you? Maybe it is an awareness that you are doing all you can to be present for him.

I am not trying to be too harsh or anything. I do understand that your reactions seem to be beyond your control. I would also trust that you are already aware of breathing tactics ect but that it can be hard for them to work when tensions are that high. I am sure others will weigh in. But in the meanwhile, I cannot see how recovery can be possible if you are not strong enough to be present for him during his anger.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 7:30 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)]

ChamomileTea posted 2/18/2020 19:38 PM

We had a very similar scenario last week and it generally stems from BS getting very upset which sends me into a panic mode. Once Iím in this mode Iím highly anxious, panicked and I canít think clearly. My mind races, my heart beats out of my chest and I feel like I canít breathe. I act quickly, rashly and donít stop to consider every word that I type or say bc Iím in fight or flight mode and Iím trying to react quickly in a panic to rapidly fix the situation. This almost always inevitably leads to my doing something that rightfully upsets my BH. I know the right thing for me is to stop, work through my breathing so I can recover enough to think clearly. Asking for this from my BH almost always upsets him. He takes it that I donít care, that I am ignoring him or as a misstep on my part. I feel like Iím then forced btw a rock and a hard place. All I want is to do what he needs but if I donít get that time I always fuck up multiple times before I can get it right. All the meanwhile this pushes me further into a panic that Iím upsetting him further.

You've got the right answer right there in bold. Stop what you're doing and take a breather.

I don't know if you've read it before, but if you haven't, Bessel van der Kolk wrote a wonderful book on trauma, called The Body Keeps Score. In it, he describes the fight/flight/freeze response of the amygdala and he also describes how loosely its connection with the prefrontal cortex is. That's your logic center. So, you can't "logic" your way out of panic. The amygdala can't tell when an emergency is clear and present, like an impending car accident, or when it's emotional. It sends out signals which flood your body with adrenaline and cortisol anyway. Next thing you know, you're in fight/flight/freeze, and if you're prone to depression, option #4 is what I like to call "the black pit of negativity" which, for me, typically lasts 12-48 hours.

Better to address the flooded amygdala quickly before the ramp up. Announce your intentions to take a little time for yourself, do your deep breathing and/or meditation. Look for an online page called "position of hands & fingers during meditation" and get into the habit of using one of those formations. Your body will learn to recognize it as calm-time. If you're too stressed for traditional mediation, try auditory meditation; just quietly listening and identifying sounds as far away as you can. You might also talk to your therapist about a method called "tapping".

As I've said to you before, BS's have our own work to do. Managing triggers is part of that work. About the most you can do is sincerely apologize for the need for it, but after that, it's an emotional response and we have to work through them when they come. It's not something you can fix, so don't try. Sometimes, he's gonna be mad. But if that's the case, those are HIS feelings to work through. Step back, and have some faith that he can manage his own emotions. It's a process and it won't be perfect, but if recovery is truly important to him, he'll get there.

Deep breaths.

Change4thebetter posted 2/28/2020 14:09 PM

As I've said to you before, BS's have our own work to do. Managing triggers is part of that work. About the most you can do is sincerely apologize for the need for it, but after that, it's an emotional response and we have to work through them when they come. It's not something you can fix, so don't try. Sometimes, he's gonna be mad. But if that's the case, those are HIS feelings to work through. Step back, and have some faith that he can manage his own emotions. It's a process and it won't be perfect, but if recovery is truly important to him, he'll get there.

Thank you for your thoughtful response chamomiletea. I will look into that book that you recommended. Iím having a very hard time differentiating my consequence from his work when he gets mad. We have a lot of difficulty communicating and I know a lot of it stems from persistent wayward behavior on my part and still expecting fairness and respect while he is flooding.

There is something that has been on the back burner since dday. Prior to dday I had a friendship w a co-worker that often made my BH uncomfortable. Iíve admitted that I was wrong and insensitive as his wife to continue a friendship that my BH wasnít always happy about. Iím readily admitting and apologizing for many things Iíve done w this co-worker but for some reason Iím having a lot of difficulty owning it completely and classifying it as an EA.

I started working with this man in 2012. We didnít become friends until late 2013 but by the time I met my BH in March 2014 we were closer. A month before I met BH this coworker was diagnosed w MS and I was fired in April so I wasnít working with him from April 2014 until May 2015 we were both working in the same building again. He became a friend. Heís married with two kids and he never made moves on me. I have never been interested in him romantically or sexually and I would always joke to my husband ď___ doesnít have a penis.Ē I explained my friendship that he was like a big brother to me and the protectiveness felt very nice.

We would text every few weeks to say hi and check in. He was so happy for me when I met BH and BH liked him at the time and really up until dday 1 w occasional reservations that I blew off. Every once in a while we would catch up on the phone filling each other in on our lives, family and work gossip. We would end conversations and texts w ďI love you.Ē

He didnít treat me any differently than any other female I have seen him interact with. He was always fawned over at work in a predominantly female field and everyone was always enamored with him. He was personable, friendly, genuinely nice and loved to help people. Times that he would reach out to me would make me feel special. For a period of time when we werenít working together I would take screenshots sometimes when he called, texted or liked a picture on FB. For this I acknowledged and saw that he elicited excitement in me and I was so happy to see him think of me. That right there is a red flag and I see ďEA! EA!Ē but other than him being the opposite sex there was never anything untoward or secret going on. BH was privy to all conversations when he asked and I didnít go to him for emotional support or call him when something was wrong. BH didnít play second fiddle to him and I prized him as my one true platonic male friend. We hung out a lot but it was always with his wife or other coworkers present.

There was one time I went out with him alone and that had been early on in our marriage my BH pushed me to go talk to him for a male perspective of a problem we were having in the bedroom. (My refusing intimacy and pushing my Bh away at the time - first year of marriage while A was going on w the first AP). I was very uncomfortable with this but we met and I didnít go into the details BH wanted me to but it ended up being a conversation about how marriage was hard and he was giving me some advice.

Iíve been working with him again from May 2015 until present. Shortly after dday 1 BH had me call him and basically tell him our friendship was over for now. Since then we hung out once in a group w BH present. BH asked me to tell him when I saw him at work but it was almost everyday and the conversation would go like this. ďDid you see ___ today?Ē ďYeah, he was thereĒ ďdid you talk to him?Ē ďNo we didnít talk, we just said good morning in passing.Ē With everything else going on I hated offering ďoh, I saw ___ today.Ē Because I was no longer sitting down to talk to him and we stopped exchanging personal information I asked BH if I could just tell him if or when we actually spoke. Again, I wasnít seeing him as an AP but I wanted to respect the discomfort that Bh now had with him.

This guy was my only male friend. I didnít understand BHís concerns about him bc I didnít see anything wrong with the friendship. In my mind I had no problems w the girls BH spoke with and I couldnít understand his problem w him especially since he always enjoyed his company and didnít appear threatened by him in the past.

Another thing that has been very bothersome to Bh that I understand and I canít fully explain my own actions but I was VERY insensitive to BH in regards to touching this coworker. We werenít touchy feely but unlike many Orthodox Jews who donít touch members of the opposite sex other than family, BH and I donít do that and we will hug friends, family of friends and shake hands of people we are unrelated to. This goes now into how I insisted Bh and I keep the rule of no touching each other even though A)we both had a history and knew the other wasnít a virgin B)bH reeeeeeally didnít want to keep this rule but he was controlling himself in order to respect me while C) during this time I was fucking 2 APís and hugging this coworker. With good reason he is fuming about all of that and he canít understand why I put him through no touching while I was disregarding his struggle and desires for what?! I canít even answer that fully as my understanding of my own actions is lacking.

After dday while Bh was going through my phone and history he felt very uncomfortable with our conversations and also terms of endearment. He had found a pic taken of us dancing on a party bus taken back in 2013 that looked very provocative. It was taken by another coworker (all coworkers celebrating a birthday). I was trashed and that was the first time I had taken Jell-O shots and I went eye of the tiger drunk that night. There were a lot of stories and Bh didnít care because it was before his time but this picture now haunts him even though all there said we just danced for two min and someone snapped the pic. There was another pic of me straddling another coworker who I had slept with twice. It was a wild night for me before I met BH and I would get upset by him having such a problem w the pic and insisting something happened. (Due to other circumstances I had to spend a lot of time putting the pieces of that evening together and I do know in fact that nothing happened w this coworker.)

With many good reasons listed above I am no longer friends with this person but we are not officially NC and I still see him as having been a ďbig brotherĒ and close. I have apologized and opened my eyes to the hurt I caused BH w this friendship and only recently realized how hurtful it was for him to see my hug another man at a time I wouldnít hug him. How I kept trying to explain the friendship when BH has concerns that I brushed off. At this point I have no desire for him to be my friend or to go back to the way things were. I feel as if I am still in denial about my emotional investment in my friendship but I do know it never crossed lines or boundaries in regards to flirting, sex or attraction.

My question is this- why canít I fully own this as an EA?! Why doesnít it fit the definition to me? I admit it was wrong, I admit it was hurtful and I understand how my BH is feeling bc of many thoughtless insensitive actions on my part but Iím having a lot of trouble straight out calling it an affair. For my BHís sake, I canít go on like this.

[This message edited by Change4thebetter at 3:14 PM, February 28th, 2020 (Friday)]

Lostallalone posted 2/28/2020 16:41 PM

Why is it I feel worse for SD reading your comments then I do reading his. He is always trying to plz you and you come across very unremorseful and bragging. You sound almost proud of yourself for not letting your husband touch you while you carried on multiple affairs. You said ZERO so far of what you're doing to help your husband. Even to the point of still gaslighting your friendship with this guy that your husband does not approve of. Listen YOUR HUSBAND IS NOT COMFORTABLE WITH HIM IN YOUR LIFE.

Maybe its how you type that comes across this way idk. I know we can't read inflection. But geeze girl show some remorse

ChamomileTea posted 2/28/2020 17:24 PM

Iím having a very hard time differentiating my consequence from his work when he gets mad. We have a lot of difficulty communicating and I know a lot of it stems from persistent wayward behavior on my part and still expecting fairness and respect while he is flooding.

First off, if you haven't read it before, I would suggest looking up an article online called "The Four Horseman" by John Gottman. It's really short, but the more links you follow the more information you'll get. It's a good breakdown of the kind of communication errors you'll want to avoid. In order to clean up your communications, you would BOTH need to keep your side of the street clean. I'm not sure what you're talking about when you reference your "consequence" or the 'expectation for fairness and respect'. What do you mean when you say "persistent wayward behavior"? You're a year out from DDay and you're both mature adults, so I would think that keeping communications respectful would not be a problem at this point. It's not unheard of for BS's to blow their lid and say some nasty things shortly after DDay in the passion of the moment. But that's no longer the case here. There's no reason why your communications shouldn't be consistently respectful at this point.

In terms of your male friend... I don't agree that this was an EA. It doesn't really meet the criteria of one. That said, it is demonstrative of a need for external approval when you say:

He was always fawned over at work in a predominantly female field and everyone was always enamored with him. He was personable, friendly, genuinely nice and loved to help people. Times that he would reach out to me would make me feel special.

And yeah... we all like to feel special. But after an infidelity crisis, the need/want of external validation is a significant boundary issue. As a WS, you really need to be able to prove that you're self-fruitful in terms of validation. And that often does mean giving up opposite-sex friends until full trust can be reestablished, and sometimes that kind of trust never comes back. So, you'd need to determine whether that's something you can live with if it doesn't.

For my fWH, I no longer tolerate close female friends, and because he was the kind of guy who really felt like he NEEDED that kind of attention and validation, I probably will never waiver from that position. Now, that doesn't mean he can't have casual interactions with coworkers or old friends, but it does mean that his boundaries need to be very firm about keeping it from becoming emotionally intimate conversation.

So, I think rather than try to "fully own this EA", your better bet would be to try and tap into what that friendship was doing for you in terms of validation and/or maybe FOO (ie. was this guy replacing a missing brother figure?), and then maybe compare that to what kind of things you're doing today to self-validate and meet your own needs. IOW, identify the aspects of that friendship which were not healthy, and "own" those. What, if anything, made it different from your female friendships?

This goes now into how I insisted Bh and I keep the rule of no touching each other even though A)we both had a history and knew the other wasnít a virgin B)bH reeeeeeally didnít want to keep this rule but he was controlling himself in order to respect me while C) during this time I was fucking 2 APís and hugging this coworker. With good reason he is fuming about all of that and he canít understand why I put him through no touching while I was disregarding his struggle and desires for what?! I canít even answer that fully as my understanding of my own actions is lacking.

Do you have a time machine??? Because if you don't, you can't unfuck or untouch anyone... ever. The best you can do is to continue working with your IC to figure out why you felt the need to keep you BH at arm's length and then share that answer with him when it comes. And it will come, if you and your therapist make it a priority and keep working at it.

And now, we're coming back around to "BS work". As BS, when we set down the path to R, it's NOT comfortable work. We're often emotionally unprepared, and typically suffering substantive feelings of injustice. We didn't cause this mess. It just landed in our laps. But, life is seldom fair and truly NOTHING about infidelity is fair. And as we established last paragraph, there is no time machine. If we want R, we have to do our work. And part of that work is reaching Acceptance. These things happened. Nothing changes that, so all we can do is determine a direction, put our best foot forward, and work toward our new goals.

The past cannot be changed. So, even though something like finding out why you could hug other people but not him might inform his opinion of your progress in therapy, and by extension, whether you're a safe bet for R, there's very little to be gained from emotionally holding onto those events. As BS, we have to eventually decide whether holding onto a painful emotion is more important than taking a more clinical view and working toward progress. We don't choose whether pain visits us; triggers, random memories happen.. but we can choose whether or not to hold onto pain. And of course, there are therapies for learning how to manage our emotions, but we have to choose to invest in getting that work done if we want R.

You've said that you don't know what to do when he gets mad, but the fact is that there's NOTHING you can realistically do to manage another person's emotions. We each have to do that for ourselves. He can't do your work for you, but by the same token, you can't do his work for him. You can empathize and apologize, but after that, you just have to trust that he's an adult and that he's capable of getting the job done.

I expect that you probably end up feeling really flustered when these issues pop up, but when that happens, try taking a few deep breaths and getting your blood pressure back down. The more panicked you feel, the less likely it is that whatever interaction you're having will be conducive to healing. It's okay to be a "work-in-progress". It's okay too for your BS to be a "work-in-progress". Recovery takes time. Do try to look up that article I recommended though. Communication is key.


ETA: I re-read my post and it came off sounding preachy, like I'm your mom or something. Just wanted to say that my intent is always to be more helpful and supportive than my phrasing sometimes turns out to be.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 7:50 PM, February 28th (Friday)]

Change4thebetter posted 3/8/2020 10:22 AM

The last two months have been very difficult for us and specifically for my BH. We are only two months out from our last dday and its hard at times for both of us to remember how that reset the clock. Last month was one year from the first dday. We've been going through a lot the last two months w/ our daughter and one of his siblings all the while he had resigned from a terrible job and that was an added fear and stress, however, significantly less than the job itself caused. BH started a new job last week and things are starting to settle...although the new reality is that things don't ever really settle anymore.

I've been doing some more thinking about my "friendship"/Emotional affair w/ the male co-worker. I can now call it an emotional affair. I hurt my BH w/ that relationship. I continued a relationship w/ another male that made him uncomfortable and I ignored all of his attempts to tell me he didn't like what was going on with him.

I think where my real difficulty lies is in calling this male co-worker an AP. Can you have an emotional affair without an AP? Or can an AP not know that they are causing strife and damage to another's marriage when they are acting like an innocent friend? This co-worker never treated me differently than any other female friend. He always liked and treated my BH w/ respect. He never realized that what he was doing (giving friend a hug) was so hurtful and terrible for my BH to see.

I think that is what was holding me back because the more that I think about it, it WAS an emotional affair and it WAS a relationship that hurt and bothered my husband and I completely disregarded his thoughts and feelings on the matter which was WRONG. I should have always put my BH first. Even this last year when I continued to deny that my friendship w/ this co-worker was in fact an affair- this was wrong.

ChamomileTea, I know its impossible but I REEEEEEALLY wish I had that time machine....

ChamomileTea posted 3/10/2020 14:23 PM

We are only two months out from our last dday and its hard at times for both of us to remember how that reset the clock. Last month was one year from the first dday.

A new DDay doesn't undo all the marital recovery work you've done in a year because it doesn't undo the communications and coping techniques you two have hopefully learned. Yes, a new discovery can "reset the clock" in terms of creating doubt about R. Sometimes, the BS learns something new and they just don't want to continue any further. But that doesn't sound like it's where you're at.

So, I'm just going to be blunt and ask... Are your communications with each other respectful and constructive on both sides??? You don't even have to answer here. But if you're NOT where you need to be in terms of communications, that's something which needs to change. I can't remember if you're doing MC along with IC, but if not, and if communications aren't what they need to be... it's time. If you are, and your MC isn't effective, you might consider changing therapists.

From everything you've posted, I think your best bet is to work on BOUNDARIES. I still don't agree that the friendship you mentioned above meets the criteria of an EA, but it's easy to see that it became a boundary issue. Your personal boundaries didn't encompass your marital ones.

Now that's not to say we take other people's boundaries and adopt them as if they were our own, not even our spouse's boundaries. Your BH can't set your boundaries for you. You can't set his for him. But, you can take one of his boundaries, decide it suits your goals, and make it into your own. ie. BH has a boundary stating he will not keep a wife who flirts with other men. Your boundary of "I will not flirt with other men" though has to be about YOU, not about what your BH wants. It has to truly reflect what you believe is right for you and your goal of a healthy marriage, otherwise you're not living your truth. You're merely doing as your told. So, your marriage is a priority to you, you adopt personal boundaries which protect it.

You also adopt personal boundaries which protect YOU. I do hope I'm reading your posts wrongly, but I suspect that there's still some verbal disrespect going on in your communications. And if there is, it needs to STOP. As BS, I'd say the vast majority of us have lost our cool from time to time. But that doesn't make it an acceptable norm. You are more than a year out from your original DDay and the shock which causes these kinds of emotional outbursts is in the past. You cannot move forward as a couple unless you're actually gaining ground, and healthy communication is key. Otherwise, you're stuck, and not just one of you, BOTH of you.

Your boundaries must be solid. And not just for your personal interactions with outsiders, and not just for your marital priorities, but on the whole. So, if that means setting boundaries with BH about respectful communications, try to bear in mind that ALL your healthy boundaries benefit your BH because they provide him with a healthier partner.

Like I said earlier, I hope I'm reading this thing wrong, but if I'm not, remember that you don't have to discuss it here on this board, but you do need to discuss it with your BH and your IC.

Change4thebetter posted 3/22/2020 13:25 PM

Chamomiletea thank you so much for your responses.

Every day I show my BH that I am thinking about him and loving him. He doesnít question my love for him anymore. He doesnít question his placement in my life anymore. It makes me so sad that for so many years he did. Everyday I am so thankful for him and his decision to stay with me while I work to be a safe partner for him.

Misanthrope posted 4/1/2020 18:05 PM

My opinion on this will not be popular. I have read this entire thread front to back. I really do hope that you get all the professional help that you need so you can live a happy and fulfilling life.

But I pray that you husband stops letting you control and manipulate and play games with his life and divorces you so that the poor man can work on getting some peace of mind and and peace in his life.

You have done enough mental and emotional torture and manipulation and gas lighting that I am genuinely surprised that he has not tried to harm himself.

I hope he finds the strength with the help of God to leave you so that he can begin to heal properly and finally be free of the misery and destruction you have caused him. Lord knows he deserves it after all you have done torment him.

NotSureAboutIt posted 4/4/2020 14:17 PM

CFTB - after a year I still don't think you get it. There should be absolutely no GNOs. Cannot believe you would even consider it. And absolutely no male friends. Zero. Zip. You simply are unsafe around other men. No texting, no calls no friendly talk at work. I don't think you andSD belong together, but if there is any chance at all you must radically change your boundaries.

Change4thebetter posted 4/5/2020 09:29 AM

I came back for some help. A season is upon us and w/ the current situation a lot of things that have been helping BH are now gone. He is home alone daily again and its taking a toll and I'm an essential worker and continue to work. My birthday is coming up in a few days and that is a big trigger- it is the day many A's started. I'm not expecting anything from him. I bought him a gift and made arrangements for our kids to be at my parents house for the night. There was so much more that I had in mind that can't be done b/c of social distancing, etc and Passover starting the next day.

Bc of time and finances IC isn't really an option for us. I signed up for a program to continue working on myself in the meantime. Learning about attachment theory has been very helpful to determine many of my why's- both for the A's and my abhorrent treatment of BH- now I need to do the work to change it and not just understand it.

You have done enough mental and emotional torture and manipulation and gas lighting that I am genuinely surprised that he has not tried to harm himself.

Misanthrope when I was able to open my eyes and actually see what I did to him... it is surprising...but my husband is the strongest and kindest man I have ever met. I wish I had seen him for who he was from the beginning. We are only still here because of his generous guidance and graciousness w/ me as I scramble to fix what I never had any intention to repair.

NotSureAboutIt I no longer have any male friends and have stopped going on GNO's w/ all of my groups of friends since DDAY. My BH asked me not to go NC w/ this specific co-worker but we are no longer friends. As for the GNO's I continued to have, as hard as it was for my BH especially given where we went out, he didn't want me to stop going (and I did say I wouldn't go) but he pushed anyway despite his pain given the group were 3 co-workers he trusted and it affected our jobs.

This is one of my greatest struggles to date. I'm trying to understand more about my need to defend myself. Not in regards to the A's, but just all the time. He doesn't want to hear excuses or the reasons...so why can't I just apologize w/o the need to offer the rationale for my actions (or lack of)? I know that because of my Dismissive Avoidant attachment style I am very sensitive to criticism and I am always on guard but I don't know how to put that guard down enough for BH. It is never related to A's as I am no longer defensive about that. On a day to day basis though I see how it affects him and how painful it is for him. It's more than just "don't be defensive." Even if I am able to control my words at times, I can feel the surge I have to defend myself from harm, I can see that he sees it as well...after all the harm that I caused him, I don't know what it is I'm scared of and why I'm still afraid to be vulnerable. Any other WS's struggle with this and can share what helped?

HellFire posted 4/5/2020 09:46 AM

Im really concerned that you aren't in IC.

Considering your extreme memory lapses. You clearly need professional help,and most likely have a mental illness,and need to be medicated.

Being untreated, you are so far from a safe person for your husband. It literally puts him in danger. Emotionally, and physically. He has to constantly be waiting for more facts to suddenly be remembered. And, since you have a history of having affairs, and forgetting about them almost immediately, until confronted with proof, how do you know you didn't have sex with someone last week? Now,typically, that would be a ridiculous question. But, all thibhs considered here, it's not.

LifeDestroyer posted 4/5/2020 09:58 AM

I can feel the surge I have to defend myself from harm

What harm are you defending yourself from? Why do you view his words as harmful?

Change4thebetter posted 4/5/2020 11:25 AM

Hellfire I do appreciate your concern and there is no question IC is necessary for myself...for BH as well and continued MC. We know this and are trying our best w/ what we have right now.

Being untreated, you are so far from a safe person for your husband. It literally puts him in danger. Emotionally, and physically. He has to constantly be waiting for more facts to suddenly be remembered.

This is something we both know as well. BH feels he has to constantly be braced to find out more. I've been working to remember and dig and find anything else. The last dday was because of that.

And, since you have a history of having affairs, and forgetting about them almost immediately, until confronted with proof, how do you know you didn't have sex with someone last week? Now,typically, that would be a ridiculous question. But, all thihs considered here, it's not.

It wasn't forgotten about almost immediately. We are sure that I knew exactly what I was doing during that time (A's while dating, engaged and first few years of M). I didn't think I would be hurting BH if he never found out. If I didn't do any work, if BH had rug swept it all, if I didn't love him then I would solemnly admit that's a possibility. The IC's I have seen, our MC and my BH are not at all concerned that I would have an A at this point in time. For the life of me, I can't understand anyone who could after having gone through DDAY's. If I had all the info to offer from the getgo I would have avoided so many ddays and his deep fall into darkness involved in digging and hunting for all info he could get that I couldn't give. If I had knowingly withheld any info that led to dday after dday my BH would have left long ago.

What harm are you defending yourself from? Why do you view his words as harmful?

LD Its not his words that I find harmful, but the fact I messed up. If I make a mistake in judgment, action, words, etc and he calls me out on it- instead of just giving a proper apology I still have the inherent need to go into "I'm sorry, but..." which is NOT a true apology. So why do I feel the need to offer the explanation to minimize my wrongdoing or try to justify it altogether? That's what I'm trying to figure out. Why can't I be fallible?

Until DDAY I don't think I ever offered a true apology in my life. Maybe I said the words "I'm sorry." It was always followed by "but" if it was followed by anything at all. BH taught me how to apologize this year... just something else that he had to do :(

LifeDestroyer posted 4/5/2020 12:19 PM

So why do I feel the need to offer the explanation to minimize my wrongdoing or try to justify it altogether? That's what I'm trying to figure out. Why can't I be fallible?

Do you not find yourself fallible after having your affairs? You failed your marriage, husband, and yourself. You don't still justify any of your behavior, do you? I would guess that you don't. So, you have allowed yourself to be fallible in that sense.

The smaller stuff, is just that, small. We all fuck up on little things. The other night my husband was doing the taxes and asked how much I paid to register my car. I thought I still had the receipt, but I didn't. I apologized and that was it. Months ago, I would have felt the need to justify it by saying "who the hell keeps their receipt??"

As a WS we have to learn how to own up to our shit, because we sure as shit never did that before, at least not fully. I think we also have to get familiar with the experience of getting called out when we mess up. We never got called out before, or at least we didn't allow it, and look what happened.

Change4thebetter posted 4/5/2020 13:53 PM

Thank you LD.

The smaller stuff, is just that, small. We all fuck up on little things. The other night my husband was doing the taxes and asked how much I paid to register my car. I thought I still had the receipt, but I didn't. I apologized and that was it. Months ago, I would have felt the need to justify it by saying "who the hell keeps their receipt??"

This is the daily small stuff that I struggle with! Stupid comments like that! I too often still have the need to have the last word.

As a WS we have to learn how to own up to our shit, because we sure as shit never did that before, at least not fully. I think we also have to get familiar with the experience of getting called out when we mess up. We never got called out before, or at least we didn't allow it, and look what happened.

Again, this is also very true. Until DDAY I never got called out on ANYTHING by anyone. Maybe its just shocking to my system. My BH is not letting anything slip by and I don't always know how to handle owning mistakes, taking responsibility for everything I say and do. I still often react instinctively and struggle w/ my fight/flight or freeze response.

I feel like I have this invisible war inside of me between desperately wanting to heal, but then repeating the same mistakes over and over because my subconscious mind is trying to keep me protected. I have this constant battle between my conscious mind and my subconscious mind. I know I need real IC for this.

[This message edited by Change4thebetter at 1:53 PM, April 5th, 2020 (Sunday)]

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