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Feeling Stuck in Anger/Plain of Lethal Flatness Phase

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Thumos posted 12/18/2019 12:40 PM

I would also not tell her whats on the test if you haven't done so already, Neanderthal makes some good points.

I mean on this, I can't remember if I've discussed questions with her in the past. I may have. But she's a smart girl and she knows that for me the "lynchpin" of her truthfulness involves additional sexual activity than has been disclosed. That's not because I'm a man and obsessed with sex, although she's alluded to that in the past. It's because if she's sanitizing the sex, she's also covering up the profundity of the affair. In any case, as you all know, what has been disclosed about the "one time" sex in our home is bad enough. But like most BS's I don't want to be chumped or played for a fool any more than I already have been.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:15 PM, December 18th (Wednesday)]

hikingout posted 12/18/2019 12:56 PM

I don't think you need to apologize or explain that this surrounds the sex. Obviously the sex is part of the details and without disclosing them it's all a lie. I don't think any one questions you on that.

I don't know Thumos, from what you just wrote, it sounds very much to me like she feels she is going to fail it. I kept thinking earlier this week she agreed to it and she did the disclosure, I expected her to pass it too. But, this is wearing on her far more than it should if she didn't feel she was holding information.

The vagueness of staying together anyway sounds like she is hatching a plan of getting you to not make any rash decisions following the poly and seeing your son as the reason for it. That way you will have time to calm down and maybe a bigger chance of returning to the status quo.

I think you need to prepare yourself for the blindside here. I am very sorry to say that, but these discussions it's getting harder and harder not to suspect you are getting ready to get a bigger confession. I suspect that November evening is going to be an encounter rather than a near miss. I am not saying this to be mean, I really want it not to be true. I am just afraid that you need to be prepared for anything here.

I am typically one who gives a wayward a lot of benefit of the doubt, this is not typical of me to say I think she is lying.

hikingout posted 12/18/2019 12:57 PM

Watch her browser history closely during this time as well.

Striver posted 12/18/2019 12:58 PM

She began talking about her fears with regards to our 10 year old if we divorce. She voiced a lot of the fears that I have, frankly - that he's a deep feeling empathetic soul with a big, good heart, that he's very intelligent (in "gifted and talented"), that he's very attached to both of us, and she's worried about kicking off a failure to thrive academically, getting in trouble at school or worse from divorce. I have these same fears, and given the empirical stats we can see in front of us, those fears are certainly not unfounded.

That's all nice. Suppose you had cheated. Can you imagine yourself conjuring up all of these arguments?

You have to look at what kind of person you are living with. Who she is now. Maybe who she always was. Do you want to go through decades more with her "spin" on everything?

EllieKMAS posted 12/18/2019 13:05 PM

She began talking about her fears with regards to our 10 year old if we divorce. She voiced a lot of the fears that I have, frankly - that he's a deep feeling empathetic soul with a big, good heart, that he's very intelligent (in "gifted and talented"), that he's very attached to both of us, and she's worried about kicking off a failure to thrive academically, getting in trouble at school or worse from divorce. I have these same fears, and given the empirical stats we can see in front of us, those fears are certainly not unfounded.

Yes of course D would be an upheaval. Can't help but be. But they have actually done studies of D'd parents and found that for the most part, kids do just as well in D where both parents are happy. Being a kid that had divorced parents, my only advice should that come to pass is to get him into IC, and make sure you and ww are on the same page regarding DS. 10 is old enough to 'understand' the concepts behind divorce.

All of that to say, while your worries certainly aren't unfounded, you and ww could mitigate a lot of the issues by being good co-parents, which I think you are both imminently capable of being.

Thumos posted 12/18/2019 13:06 PM

That's all nice. Suppose you had cheated. Can you imagine yourself conjuring up all of these arguments?

You have to look at what kind of person you are living with. Who she is now. Maybe who she always was. Do you want to go through decades more with her "spin" on everything?

Yeah, I know. I'm not naive.

In fairness, as an empathetic person, I have to say that, yes, I can imagine myself making these kinds of arguments if I were desperate. Yes, she's playing on my fears, but I think these are her fears as well. I don't doubt for a second she loves her children fiercely with all the love you'd expect a mother to have.

Thumos posted 12/18/2019 13:11 PM

The vagueness of staying together anyway sounds like she is hatching a plan of getting you to not make any rash decisions following the poly and seeing your son as the reason for it. That way you will have time to calm down and maybe a bigger chance of returning to the status quo.

I agree. After all, it worked before, didn't it? The night of D-Day, she was hugging our son and mouthing words above his head begging me not to leave. She and her mother and my SIL all encouraged me not to react rashly, go to the MC, no I shouldn't see the texts, etc.

It's good to read some validation my own thoughts from you put in such clear terms. Yes, I think this is what she's doing.

She started texting me last night while she was at an event wanting to know what my IC had said about the poly. She keeps trying to "recruit" our IC's into this. I just shut that down by saying he supported my decision and in any case this should hinge on the opinions of our IC's but rather on whether she wants to do this for me to give me some peace of mind and some ability to trust again.

Thumos posted 12/18/2019 13:13 PM

I think you need to prepare yourself for the blindside here. I am very sorry to say that, but these discussions it's getting harder and harder not to suspect you are getting ready to get a bigger confession. I suspect that November evening is going to be an encounter rather than a near miss. I am not saying this to be mean, I really want it not to be true. I am just afraid that you need to be prepared for anything here.

I don't take that as mean at all. I will say I don't think it will be a blindside, because I'm actually prepared for it. I fully expect it will be something about that night (although a few details of my recollection on that are off, incidentally, and I've been able to correct my memory a bit). But it could also be something I haven't thought about. And I fully expect on some level it will take my breath away, and leave me feeling sucker-punched all over again. I dread it, but I also want the truth.

Stevesn posted 12/18/2019 13:36 PM

Thumos

I haven’t gone back through your threads but have you told her that if she comes clean to everything you promise to keep an open mind on working to rebuild (if she can be the remorseful partner she needs to be) but that if she continues to keep aspects of her affairs hidden then you can never truly be close to her again?

How about giving her Joseph’s Letter? Have you done that?

Don’t cancel the poly, but also give her the letter:
https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/healing_library/confrontation/joseph.asp

I wish you well....

KingofNothing posted 12/18/2019 14:06 PM

Hey, Thumos, I hope things are going well. I hate to hearken back to the beginning as I am also interested in how the Polygraph will unfold. I never did the polygraph in my situation and I suspect it would have been revelatory if I had.

Still, I'm wondering about this statement from your wife: "She’s told me my attitude toward sex is “immature” because: 1. I’ve only been intimate my entire life with one woman, her. Implying I lack experience to understand mature sex.

It seems obvious to me but I didn't see it.. you say you both are in the one and only relationship for each of you-- neither dated anyone else before you got married. So, how does she get to be the one with the "mature" attitude about sexual affairs when she appears to have as much experience as you do with the opposite sex?

Thumos posted 12/18/2019 14:13 PM

I'm curious to know if there have been any further discussion about either "that odd night in November" in particular, or his townhouse/love nest in general.

It's good to write this out because it forces me to make concrete what few details I can remember.

On this night in early November: It was November 5, 2016 -- only four days after the AP had accelerated physical contact by touching my wife on her rear during Halloween. I was able to look it up just now from an online calendar. So this is approximately one month before they had sex "one time" in our home on Dec. 1, 2016.

My wife insists that it was my idea that one of us had to go to this event that I ended up attending alone. I remember it differently. It's possible she's not gaslighting me on this point, and I did want to go. After all, in the past I've always been "that guy" who wants to be responsible and live up to social and civic obligations. It seems reasonable that she did in fact want me to go with her instead and I felt I needed to attend the other event.

In any case, I remember the beginning of that night clearly. She was pushing me out the door so I wouldn't be late (I was in fact going to be late and I seem to recall at least some reluctance to go to this event).

I went out to my car. I sat there for a minute or two reading something on my phone. I can't remember what. Then something compelled me to go back inside. I also can't remember what. I'd left something possibly. I came in, and she was on the phone in the kitchen with the AP. She got off immediately. I asked who she'd been on the phone with, and something about her reaction -- was it a fraction of a second of hesitation, an avoidance of eye contact? -- caused a tiny niggling doubt to arise in me. I seem to remember it almost as a sensation of a light frisson, a sensation of ice water coursing through me.

She said it was the AP and that the AP's son was coming over for a playdate. I let it go and left for the other event.

I remember thinking her reaction was odd, and the rest of the evening I was unsettled. My brain was just beginning to process the possibilities, but I kept pushing it away while I sat through dinner and engaged with people at the event.

Then somewhere in the 9-10 pm range, I cannot be sure when, I arrived home. I've been trying to remember if I arrived home before her, and I simply cannot. Something in me wants to say I did arrive home before her. She says otherwise. Human memory is unreliable, and there are plenty of cases of eyewitnesses remembering things that never happened, so this part is fuzzy.

She has corrected something I got wrong: The girls night out was not a GNO. I got it confused with another event the same group of women annually does during the holiday season. This was, in fact, a 50th birthday party for one of the friends. (EDIT: And this is indeed the truth; it was a 50th birthday party). Ok, so that makes more sense as to why she sent the photo documenting her presence. It is still a little odd that she went out of her way to do this, but it makes more sense.

She did inform me during the disclosure that:

1. The AP came over to our house after I left. He stayed for a bit and then she left for the birthday party. Our kids were in the house with his child, so it's unlikely but not impossible something happened then. She says nothing did.

2. She then spent the entire 30 minute drive to the party on the phone with him. He told her he wished he could be with her at the party.

3. On her way home from the birthday party, she again spent the 30 minute drive on the phone with him. It was at this time that he asked her to come over to the empty condo/town home that he manages for his father (yeah, he works for his dad). She says he hadn't mentioned this before, that she declined, and that she never has seen the inside of that town home (so any questions about carpeting etc will just be fruitless, as she will just say she doesn't know).

4. According to her, she arrived home before I did. I honestly can't remember. later in the middle of the night, I woke up suddenly with a "3 a.m. epiphany" something was going on, and I could barely think straight for the next few days. It's like my brain did a soft reset and scrubbed short term memories away. It seems plausible, because I'm obviously "in touch" with my wife on a visceral level, that my gut was screaming that she'd had sex with him that night -- and that's perhaps why I woke up. I can't say.

But it's not quite as clear cut to say that she engineered the circumstances of the evening, as I initially said. Of course, the night is suspicious. The whole circumstance of every affair is hinky. It might be more accurate to say she possibly took advantage of an open opportunity based on my whereabouts.

Now let's look at a few things:

1. Yes, I know where the town house is located. I don't know the precise condo, but I know very close bc it's in a group of condos.

2. It is VERY close to our home. 1.5 miles away. A less than 5 minute drive.

3. The photo she sent was while I was at the auction still and (presumably altho I don't know this) while she was at the party. But as you say the timestamp is meaningless and proves nothing. It could certainly be the case (and this has long been a suspicion of mine) that she put in an appearance, got the picture and then rushed back to our suburb and sent the picture at a time convenient for her to "document" that she was there at the party. (EDIT: Now, if she did this, it would have been odd to her friends - they are a group of mature women, and it would have been hurtful for her not to stick around but it could have happened).

I don't have any way of knowing because I wasn't tracking her location at the time, because I wasn't suspicious of her.

4. She says he didn't bring up the townhouse in any way that evening until they were on the phone on her return home. She says she declined his invite, saying that I would be home soon, and that she realized I might already be growing suspicious.

5. She claims she never went to this townhome or any other location during the course of the affair to be with him other than: her office, their respective vehicles, a few "date" locations like restaurants and the mall, and our home.

Obviously the town home thing has always nagged at me.

She is saying now that she told me before in the past three years about him inviting her over that night, but I told her I don't remember it that way -- and that she'd only told me in the past that he'd alluded to using the town home on unspecified dates but that they never had. It feels to me like it's new information that she's telling me now he invited her to this empty condo specifically that night. Again, I can't be sure.

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:43 PM, December 18th (Wednesday)]

Thumos posted 12/18/2019 14:14 PM

you say you both are in the one and only relationship for each of you-- neither dated anyone else before you got married. So, how does she get to be the one with the "mature" attitude about sexual affairs when she appears to have as much experience as you do with the opposite sex?

No, she had a few partners before me. I've always known that.

Thumos posted 12/18/2019 14:15 PM

Don’t cancel the poly

I'm not cancelling the poly. She might refuse. If she does I will need to do it before the day of or I'll have to pay a fee and I don't want to do that.

Butforthegrace posted 12/18/2019 15:03 PM

Joseph's Letter might be timely now.

Thumos posted 12/18/2019 15:10 PM

I've repeatedly said and written a lot of the things that are in Joseph's letter. I feel like if she doesn't "get it" by now, she won't have a sudden epiphany reading that.

I have to agree with some of the negative critiques that exist in other areas of the internet critically examining this letter (I don't agree with all of what has been said negatively, but I do agree with some).

I do appreciate the suggestion, don't get me wrong. And I appreciate why Joseph's letter can be powerful in the right circumstances.

My WW already knows all of this. She's a smart girl, like I've said. If she's withholding significant information and just can't bring herself to share it, well, Joseph's letter can't break through that wall of resistance. Only she can.

BraveSirRobin posted 12/18/2019 15:16 PM

What I make of it is that she already knows she is going to fail.

Thumos posted 12/18/2019 15:32 PM

And she's willing to fail rather than come clean?

Because she thinks I'll cave if she fails but doesn't provide me with new information?

Has anyone seen or dealt with a similar situation?

(EDIT: She has spent a considerable amount of time and energy building up a "case" that her anxiety is the reason for failing a poly. She had a panic attack, she has ongoing anxiety issues through life, she's recruited her IC in a number of conversations into "opposing" the poly, she's repeatedly delayed or balked through the fall. It all adds up pretty well, I guess).

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:34 PM, December 18th (Wednesday)]

Alpargata posted 12/18/2019 15:45 PM

And she's willing to fail rather than come clean?

The thing about 20 polys, thats what I ment, she fails the question about sex more than one time, says it was two (or i guess the anxiety now that I read your edit) and back to the start of this thread to repeat ad infinitum.

Honestly it looks like there is a flash flood coming your way. At the very very least she feels that something happened with the pos that you will never get over if you find out.

Edit: Keeping an eye on her browser history this next few days even var her car again, might give you some new angles to work with.

[This message edited by Alpargata at 3:49 PM, December 18th (Wednesday)]

Buck posted 12/18/2019 16:01 PM

Thumos, why waste the money on the poly? I've given your WW the benefit of the doubt, but, dude, your wife is hiding something.

Do you really need to deal with this anymore? How does a failed or inconclusive poly really help you?

Thumos posted 12/18/2019 16:06 PM

Buck, I'd like to see if she will come clean and then what we're dealing with. I at least deserve the truth. Maybe I won't get it (I know I'll never get all of it but at least I deserve as much of the truth as I can get). Maybe I'll just have to move on without it. Maybe I'll get it and it won't be the dealbreaker she thinks it is. Maybe it will be. Maybe she'll actually pass the poly. These are all what are called "known unknowns" and why I've been in this state of liminality/limbo for three years. I'd like to get some kind of closure that helps me move on in some form or fashion - with her or without her. So I'm plowing ahead with the poly unless she cancels it.

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