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Feeling Stuck in Anger/Plain of Lethal Flatness Phase

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Thumos posted 12/16/2019 15:24 PM

Hi all, quick update:

I had not scheduled poly yet bc of my own schedule ó and as I said I wanted to wait until after the disclosure session.

I waited until this afternoon to reemphasize to my WW I was ready to move forward with the poly, I waited bc she had an appt with her IC midday and I didnít want a repeat of the panic attack episode from several weeks ago.

Her response to me today was that she was unsure and would have to think about it. Keep in mind she had already pledged to do it.

So I told her I could not force her to do anything but I need the poly In order to move forward. Without it I cannot .

am very angry right now as I type this, so I thought I would text her the following:

ďI will expect an answer from you on the polygraph by no later than Wednesday. I donít want to force you to do anything you donít want to do. The examiner can and will account for anxiety levels so that it is not a reason to refuse. You already gave me your word you would do this so I feel not proceeding would be a deep violation of trust ó along with the previous deletion of texts and the length of time I waited on the disclosure statement. Iíll expect an answer from you on Wednesday.Ē

Anyone have thoughts on this?

Butforthegrace posted 12/16/2019 15:40 PM

The general rule about the angry text is to write it, sleep on it, then delete it. There is catharsis value in writing it, but sending it rarely produces a positive result.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 3:41 PM, December 16th (Monday)]

hikingout posted 12/16/2019 15:54 PM


I think you and I agree more than we disagree. There is much work for her to catch up on.

But, I wouldn't go as far as to say she has done nothing to help him heal. She maybe hasn't concentrated on all the things she should have but by his accounts she has put full effort into being a better wife. That was done with a man who considers himself in limbo, so I would think she would feel the anger and distance at times and she still forges forward with fixing it the way she knows how. That requires tenacity and shows motivation, which is still something.

And, the other perspective you have to remember is this - There are WS who didn't have all these circumstances - I did not, for example - but there is no credit/debit system on that for a BS. There is noone to say "Turnthepage, your wife didn't do this this and this, so you don't have to be as mad", or "Turnthepage, your wife did this and this and this and I don't think you are mad enough". For a BS, it's all pain, and I don't think there is a measuring stick for it. If you move forward in a marriage where someone had sex with your spouse, it's all shitty. And, a WS has really no way to right it, the BS ends up in every case extending grace. Grace is undeserved, and it is the only thing that can ever bridge the gap.

We are seeing the same things, but I only point this out because if Thumos really does decide he's going to go for R, then he will have to let go of the anger for it to ever have hopes of it working. That might take another three years, I don't know. But, we might consider if it's his wishes to extend that grace if that time comes. In the meantime, we wait on that poly.

hikingout posted 12/16/2019 15:55 PM

oh and I cross posted before I saw the note about the poly.

That's a dealbreaker for you, I know it is. So, my thoughts are she has to accept that. She can decide not to do it but she will be deciding to end your marriage.

Thumos posted 12/16/2019 16:00 PM

BFTG, actually that was me trying g to be calm and straightforward in my wording but I guess the anger came through.

I could go with something like ďIíll expect an answer on the poly by COB Wednesday.Ē

In any case I plan on finally seeing an attorney tomorrow or Wednesday per the advice of many on this board. I had hoped for a different outcome. Iíve debated and dithered and compromised and rugswept and Iím done doing that.

The poly is a simple straightforward request. It is obvious she canít bring herself to do it, even after promising she would.

While there are a variety of explanations, Occamís razor leans heavily in the direction of her continuing to lie about the affair ó even after an expensive disclosure session when she was offered the opportunity to come clean and clear the air! After I waited three years for a written timeline and four months from when I took my ring off in AUGUST. Four months! She came with 17 pages. I could have written an entire novel by now if Iíd been in her shoes.

Itís probably the case that my gut about a new significant detail she shared during the disclosure is right ó the information about him inviting her over to an empty townhouse one night and her allegedly declining his request ó that sex happened much earlier in the affair than sheís allowed.

Iím done dancing around it. This has always been a clear point in my list of non-negotiables.

KingofNothing posted 12/16/2019 16:05 PM

Anyone have thoughts on this?

The tone is good. It's firm but not hysterical. If you don't plan on texting her immediately, then tonight, you should probably avoid all discussion about it until tomorrow. Give her the minimal interaction as per 180. She wants this to fade away, of course. You know it's a deal-breaker for her to refuse at this point. WE know this, who have followed your story. That SHE should fail to pick up on your message at this point, well, it's a red flag. A HUGE red flag. She conceded this point already and gave her promise to take a poly. I might emphasize the need for a foundation of trust in your marriage, and her going back on her word will cause substantial harm to that foundation.

Of course, that's only if you plan on texting her now.. your message doesn't seem mean spirited to me, but I'm not as nice as you are.

Buck posted 12/16/2019 16:06 PM

I agree it sounds like sheís hiding something significant. I
Sorry Thumos. I was truly hoping your wife would figure her shit out.

ramius posted 12/16/2019 16:08 PM

Her response to me today was that she was unsure and would have to think about it.

What she is basically say is, ďI have to think about if I want to save/be in this marriage.Ē

She definitely does not view you as the prize to be won/kept.

Nothing cuts through the ďFogĒ like being served papers.

Seriously you could do soooooo much better than her.

hikingout posted 12/16/2019 16:12 PM

Itís not fog 3 years out.

ramius posted 12/16/2019 16:15 PM

Agreed. I donít really buy into the Fog theory. Just being a bit sarcastic.

hikingout posted 12/16/2019 16:16 PM

There is no other explanation that I can come up that explains her response other than hiding something. I am sorry thumos.

Buck posted 12/16/2019 16:19 PM

I would wager famous is correct about Thumosí WW stepping up her effort after having divorce papers tossed in front her.

My WW sure as hell did.

Thumos posted 12/16/2019 16:22 PM

not fog 3 years out.

Precisely. 180 is being implemented tonight. Ring back off.

I have been definitively chumped and played and you guys just got to watch it all play out. I now need to work on getting my head straight and wrapped around a new reality.

I did a lot of thought experimentts and mental prep right before and after D-Day about divorce ó but itís been awhile and Iíve settled into the boiling water of limbo all too comfortably.

Time to buck up and man up now.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:23 PM, December 16th (Monday)]

Alpargata posted 12/16/2019 16:36 PM

I'm very sorry to read this latest development, got my hopes up she was actually trying to step up finally to your level.

Regardless, keep taking care of yourself and dont let anger, as righteous as it is in your case, make any decisions.

Thumos posted 12/16/2019 16:46 PM

Iím angry but itís a much more resigned and cool anger than in the past.

I think Iíve been very clear about what my next steps would be if she refused a poly. So I am not acting precipitously at all.

This has been dragged out over three years. The latest phase over FOUR MONTHS ó and I was ready to walk in August when I came here and finally started posting.

At that time she reacted very poorly when I sent her a podcast about betrayal trauma - basically a cry for help from me for all the pain Iím in. I was ready to pack it in right then and there but then she suddenly turned a corner ó or so I thought.

Looks like BTFG had it pegged - sheís viewed the disclosure session as a one act play, she took a bow and said ďthis is all you get.Ē

Thatís not good enough for me. I deserve better even if it means being alone. Thatís better than being with an untruthful woman who cannot work to restore trust.

In South Africa they called it the ďtruth and reconciliation CommissionĒ for a reason. They go together and you canít have one without the other.

[This message edited by Thumos at 7:16 PM, December 16th (Monday)]

Butforthegrace posted 12/16/2019 17:23 PM

but there is no credit/debit system on that for a BS. There is noone to say "Turnthepage, your wife didn't do this this and this, so you don't have to be as mad", or "Turnthepage, your wife did this and this and this and I don't think you are mad enough". For a BS, it's all pain, and I don't think there is a measuring stick for it

Hiking, I actually disagree with this. I agree with BeyondRage that some betrayals are worse than others. I do believe that the questions of degree are personal and subjective to each BS. However, there are things that a lot of BS's agree to be worse. Double betrayal. Lack of compartmentalization (such as betrayal in the home). Etc.

As to those who interpret Thumos's WWs refusal to do a poly as evidence that she is likely hiding something, that is possible. After all, she rues admitting even to the one instance of sex.

However, personally, my gut is that shes not actually hiding any big reveal. Rather, she is simply pushing her aggressive rug sweeping agenda. Thumos took off his ring, she dragged him through months of hell just to read a short written timeline, once, in the cloister of an MCs office. I think she views that as one and done. For Thumos to heal, that should be the start of a series of conversations between them about the A.

This is why I say shes done nothing to help him heal. Her being a good wife for three years, in context of zero disclosure about the A, is actually more consistent with her wanting to rug sweep.

hikingout posted 12/16/2019 18:44 PM

Bftg- My point with that is we can objectively say what we think will be worse, but no one can judge whether it really is for the bs experiencing it. Unless you have had two instances of infidelity and con compare the two things itís difficult to judge that. The pain is in the details of each and every affair. Also people react to things differently. Some might forgive worse things than another who couldnít tolerate something quite mild.

I suspected for some time maybe the hardest part for thumos is the first and only, yet he didnít list that as an extenuating circumstance. So what we expect someoneís reaction to be isnít always what it is. And the fact is that there are lots of people still together after worse stories, so itís not always indicative of what gap grace can fill. We can objectively say which thing is worse than the other but when it comes to the pain - we have no way to Know if one thing is less painful than another. I would suspect for me an LTA would be maybe the worst of all, or a serial cheating situation, yet people successfully reconcile after them. So there are certainly things that can be overcome by some people even if we can objectively believe they are worse. Anyway, I donít want to get in a pissing match on thumosís thread, especially while this is going on.

One last thing - I donít disagree with the rugsweeping assertion but I still think that there has been effort on her part. I think thumos has thought that too. I have a hard time thinking I would be refusing a poly knowing that my h has made it clear that is an absolutely non negotiable. I feel my lack of resistance to that is because my h knows everything. So I hope you are right about her holding back. I think because she arranged the separate Christmas parties that year and a few other things that he mentioned would make it hard to believe her. In that instance you usually see the ws desperate to clear the air.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:52 PM, December 16th (Monday)]

Butforthegrace posted 12/16/2019 18:51 PM

Hiking, I understand that and agree.

As to Thumos and the first and only piece, he was not his WWs first and only when they married. He knew this and it was not an issue for him, but that was premised on her being a faithful wife. I do perceive this is an issue now in his bundle of issues.

However, by far the elephant in the room is her giant effort to force a rug sweep agenda. From the beginning of this thread it has been my belief that this will not change in any meaningful way. Thumos is going to stare himself down in the mirror 10 years from now and the state of the A, and their R, will be exactly as it is today.

Thumos may be okay with that. His WW was in the upside down for a few months, but she came back and Thumos is okay with just forgetting about it. That is the deal she has on the table for him.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 8:35 PM, December 16th (Monday)]

hikingout posted 12/16/2019 18:54 PM

I added another paragraph while you were responding. I think we are in the same page.

Thumos posted 12/16/2019 18:58 PM

thumos is the first and only, yet he didnít list that as an extenuating circumstance

You mean the fact that Iíve been faithful and loyal and only slept with one woman my entire life (although a very active 25+ years with this woman)? Yes that is incredibly painful, especially in light of how she framed it. I donít think I can overstate how painful ó although with all of the bold open faced attention Iím getting from other women the past couple of years whatever false critique sheís offering has been counteracted.

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