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Feeling Stuck in Anger/Plain of Lethal Flatness Phase

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CincyKid posted 8/16/2019 07:11 AM

You’re not reconciling. You’re slowly killing yourself staying with a cheater that has zero remorse. The first time she answered “that’s private” to one of my questions I would have divorced her as fast as the law would allow.

[This message edited by CincyKid at 7:12 AM, August 16th (Friday)]

Thumos posted 8/16/2019 08:49 AM

1. How do I move this to general?

2. Several of you have referred to this as a LTA - The hot and heavy part lasted six weeks, with about six weeks of an EA gradually building up to a particular incident that I'll discuss later. Total: 3 months as far as I can tell. How does that qualify as a LTA?

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:01 AM, August 16th (Friday)]

Thumos posted 8/16/2019 08:59 AM

Forgot to mention that the therapist we saw for MC in year 1 after DDay supported her in not letting me see the texts.

While my MIL has been kind, my MIL also supported WW in not letting me see the texts, and in convincing me not to contact OBS (because they worried about OBS being unstable/vindictive).

So WW was getting lots of support about the texts and the only person pushing for me to see them was me. We played cat and mouse for awhile about it -- one day I almost succeeded in downloading the contents with Dr. Fone but wasn't able to pull it off.

The texts are a constant issue with me, and everyone is right - it's because I KNOW based on her not wanting me to see them they would reveal something, whether the depth of the affair, the emotional aspect ("I love you's" exchanged etc), the ridicule and contempt, fantasy plans they were making or the graphic and contradictory details of sex.

Thumos posted 8/16/2019 09:19 AM

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:55 AM, August 26th (Monday)]

Unhinged posted 8/16/2019 10:04 AM

If you haven't yet done so, Thumos, check out the "Articles" section of the Healing Library. There are two essays I suggest you read:

"Boundaries and Consequences 101 For All New BS's"

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/healing_library/confrontation/boundaries-and-consequences.asp

"Understanding Boundaries - Tough Love"

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/healing_library/confrontation/boundaries.asp


How do I move this to general?
Personally, I think your thread is fine where it is. You're trying to reconcile and it seems rather clear that your WW doesn't have the "right stuff." It's a good example for others in R to read. However, if you want it moved to the G forum I can facilitate that for you.

How does that qualify as a LTA?
Whether you consider it as a long-term or short-term affair isn't all that relevant, if you ask me. It's affair and all affairs suck!

...MC in year 1 after DDay supported her in not letting me see the texts.
...my MIL also supported WW in not letting me see the texts, and in convincing me not to contact OBS (because they worried about OBS being unstable/vindictive).
Establishing and enforcing boundaries is critical to reconciliation. Why do you keep letting others dictate the terms and conditions of reconciliation for you? You get to decide, sir, what is and is not acceptable to you moving forward. It's YOUR life. These are YOUR choices.

Whatever the nature of these text messages, whether they will help or hinder your recovery and healing, is largely beside the point. What's important is assessing whether your WW has the courage and integrity to be open and honest about anything and everything. There's no point in trying to reconcile with a coward.

Thumos posted 8/16/2019 10:47 AM

I'm sorry I haven't figured out how to use the quote feature. I consider myself pretty adept technologically but I can't figure that out.

A number of questions have been asked of me, so I thought I'd answer them....

1. Has she acknowledged her A as being her fault 100% or does she still try to put Pre-M issues into her reasoning?

Answer: No. She verbally says "this 100 percent my fault." But then she follows that with all of the pre-marital issues leading up to it. She always has, from the first moments after discovery.

2. Have either of us done IC?

Answer: No. We did MC for awhile. It was quite expensive. We're not low-income by any means, but you can rack up quite a bill. That said, this past year, I've brought up several times I want her to do IC to figure out why she did this. She hasn't taken any action.

3. What has she done to be a safer partner?

Answer: Accountability. Letting me see her calendar. Giving me access to her phone and accounts. Checking in with me all the time. When the affair was going on, it was difficult to get her to even answer the phone during the day.

4. How does she have any certainty that your take on sex is...immature?

Answer: She doesn't. It's just a bulls*t line she's used out of anger. Everyone on this thread knows which marital partner has the immature attitude toward sex, and it's certainly not me. I brought that up because I feel it demonstrates wayward thinking, lack of remorse, disregard for my pain, and a sense of entitlement.

NOTE: In addition to this, something I forgot to mention is that in several conversations it became clear that her view of marital vows is different than mine. I believe marriage is a sacred covenant. She believes marital vows are conditional and contextual. She's said "we both have violated our vows in different ways" but wouldn't elaborate. She said my view of marriage of as a sacred convenant was black and white thinking, sanctimonious and judgmental.

5. Does she express remorse to you? Do her actions match what she is saying?

Answer: Yes and no. As you can see there's a lot of water under the bridge here and a lot of pent up resentment, anger, sadness etc that I'm carrying around. She has written to me and said to me how sorry she is, how badly she wants to be with me, how attracted she is to me. Does this bear out in her actions? Yes to a degree. She is constantly physically affectionate (something she didn't offer before in our marriage), she wants and initiates sex frequently (although lately that has tapered off considerably because the wheels come off in the middle with my mind movies). She does many acts of service, keeps the household moving along, plans trips, wants to do things with me. She has also said some very hurtful, wrong-headed completely f*cked up things that I've shared here. Not too long ago, she wrote to me that she was "sorry for my contribution to the status of our relationship" - this sanitized, cold statement sounded like a press release from a communist news service, and I felt it was horrifically revelatory of what she is really thinking inside.

6. Have you ever simply straight-up told her bluntly that you don't believe she has given you the full truth?

Answer: Yes, repeatedly. She has held firm that she has. I made the mistake early on of revealing too much of what I actually knew and how I got that information. This is why the texts, and her refusal to let me see them, hold such an outsized presence in my mind. She's also told me that it was a terrible mistake for her to admit to sex and that she should have taken that with her to the grave. I had to drag this admission out of her weeks after D-Day. I believe this is implicitly admitting she hasn't given me the full truth.

7. Has she offered to do anything on that point? Like write out the timeline?

Answer: No. I've brought up the idea of writing out a timeline numerous times. Her answer is that she's told me everything.

8. "ask you what she can do to help you heal. Has she ever asked you that?"

Answer: No, not that I can remember.

9. "I’d bet $100 she has used the term “mistake” at least once in her effort to minimize and bully you into rug-sweeping."

Answer: Yes. I guess someone owes you $100. She has said this repeatedly. "It was a horrible, f*cked up mistake. An awful mistake. A one-time crazy mistake. I'm not that person. Why can't you please, please forgive me?" That's almost verbatim. Said usually while breaking down in sobs. This had a profound impact on me in the beginning and I only wanted to comfort her. It doesn't do much to me now but then again, we haven't really talked about it in awhile.

10. "have you ever spoken to the POSOM about the A? Has he ever apologized?"

Answer: No. I see him around town a lot. This usually results in me staring him down for uncomfortably long moments. I'm bigger and have a lot more muscle mass than him. He also habitually carries around a boot knife, a pocket knife and a loaded concealed gun on his person. I trigger so hard when I see his vehicle, so bad that now just the same make and model of vehicle causes me to irrationally hate the poor driver. Once about a year or so after D-Day he approached my WW and tried to threaten me. She says she cut him off. She didn't tell me about this encounter right away.

NOTE: Something important as a sidenote. For a long time, during our conversations about the affair, my WW would get angry and say something like "If you had just let me talk to him" - this was usually about the fact that our two young children, his and ours, are best friends and in the same class in school (still are) but now can't be on teams together or have playdates.

11. What does her minimizing tell you about her?

Answer: This question answers itself.

12. "Where is this guilt coming from, do you think?"

Answer: Mainly it has to do with the devastating impact I know a divorce would have on my kids, how shocking and horrible it would be for our extended family and couple friends. We have done a good job of keeping this in the dark.

13. "what has she said about whether and/or how long the A would still be going on if she wasn't caught."

Answer: She claims she was exiting out of it. The one conversation I heard contained a lot of revealing information and one part of that was how freaked out both of them were about how smart I am and how I was onto them. So I do believe it was winding down. On the other hand, I feel that if I hadn't intervened and blown the doors off it, there's a good chance it could have reignited or they could have had sex again. She claims both of them viewed this as a fun romp, a diversion, and neither were interested in leaving their marriages.

14. "It seems like what she was trying to engineer was a circumstance where she could cavort with him almost openly and cudgel you into submission via hyper-aggressive gaslighting, to the point where you were seeking therapy and medicating yourself."

Answer: I agree. This is one of the central issues that has made any recovery so difficult. She accuses me of exaggerating this point, especially when I say "you would have had me crawling around on all fours, like a submissive drugged out dog." It is also a central brute fact that worried me I was married to a narcissist. But she doesn't ACT like a narcissist in other areas of her life. One of the doorways for her affair was that her AP was jealous that I had a wife who was such a good, nurturing mother to her children. He wanted that, and felt it was lacking in his own marriage (this is all pretty biblical if you think about it - those divinely inspired writers knew what they were talking about). So it's confusing.

15. "You know and I know why she refused. It's because the texts would have revealed a depth and profundity of her adultery that is way more profound and painful than the ersatz version she is trying to get you to believe."

Answer: Agree 100 percent. She has a lot of rationalizations for not letting me see the texts. The most laughable is a combination of "there's nothing there" and "it would just deepen your pain."

16. "If your WW is a Perel disciple..."

Answer: I wouldn't go that far. She's read Perel and said it was "helpful." I said she's an apologist for adultery, and WW responded that "that's not accurate, you haven't read her so you don't even know." On one point though I think you are right: Reading Perel gave her a self-justifying rationalization for her adultery. It allowed her to let herself off the hook to some degree.

17. "What Thumos do you want to wake up and look at in the mirror when you're 60?"

Answer: I ask myself this all the time, pretty much every morning when I'm shaving and looking at myself in the mirror.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:53 AM, August 16th (Friday)]

Butforthegrace posted 8/16/2019 10:54 AM

The hot and heavy part lasted six weeks, with about six weeks of an EA gradually building up to a particular incident that I'll discuss later. Total: 3 months as far as I can tell. How does that qualify as a LTA?

Obviously there is no bright line to define a LTA. One distinction would be a ONS, or even a weekend fling whilst away -- a casual, one-off bout of adultery with somebody the WW meets by happenstance, enjoys some quick casual sex, and never contacts again.

To me, elements that suggest a LTA include repeated, ongoing contact with somebody in proximity of quotidian life. Check. Secret relationship formed with strings of communication starting with emotional stuff and building to physical stuff. Check. Gaslighting the BH as he begins to suspect, and continuing to carry on the A such that the A overlaps the BH's ongoing concern. Check. Emotional and/or sexual interaction that goes on for more than a week or so. Check.

I'm curious to know what excuse she has tried to use to explain why she chose to engage in infidelity, and why she chose this specific AP. Maybe you feel constrained from talking about that because she surfs SI and will almost certainly realize who this is if you do so.

I believe marriage is a sacred covenant. She believes marital vows are conditional and contextual.

Do you have any record of the actual literal words used in your vows?

17. "What Thumos do you want to wake up and look at in the mirror when you're 60?"

Answer: I ask myself this all the time, pretty much every morning when I'm shaving and looking at myself in the mirror.

This brings to mind that old adage: "If you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting."

Based on your posts, it strikes me that you've gotten about as much "R effort" from your WW as you're going to get. Period. I reckon you know this too, which is what prompted your posting here. I think you realize that probably means that staying married means the Thumos staring you in the mirror as you shave your slighly more deeply lined face at 60 will be essentially the same one you stared down this morning.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 11:22 AM, August 16th (Friday)]

Thumos posted 8/16/2019 11:44 AM

Do I have any record of the vows? Yes. It was a Methodist ceremony - as Methodism falls within 'little o' Christian orthodoxy, the marriage ceremony is considered one of the most sacred rites of the church. It is considered to be a solemn covenant.

The vows are traditional and will be familiar to most people...

Pastor to the persons who are to marry:
I ask you now, in the presence of God and these people,
to declare your intention
to enter into union with each other
through the grace of Jesus Christ,
who calls you into union with himself
as acknowledged in your baptism.

Pastor to the woman:
Name, will you have Name to be your husband,
to live together in holy marriage?
Will you love him, comfort him, honor and keep him,
in sickness and in health,
and forsaking all others, be faithful to him
as long as you both shall live?

Woman: I will

Pastor to the man:
Name, will you have Name to be your wife,
to live together in holy marriage?
Will you love her, comfort her, honor and keep her,
in sickness and in health,
and forsaking all others, be faithful to her
as long as you both shall live?

Man: I will.

Butforthegrace posted 8/16/2019 11:47 AM

Will you love him, comfort him, honor and keep him,
... forsaking all others, be faithful to him
as long as you both shall live?

Not a whole lot of wiggle room in those vows to interpret them as "conditional" or "situational". Maybe she had her fingers crossed behind her back when she said them?

As to Perel, I don't think she's an "apologist" for adultery. I've not heard her say "adultery is okay." I HAVE heard her say "adultery is understandable and explainable", and, in the way she says this, it comes of as "and therefore adultery is natural and normal." As mentioned, Perel's base is mainly cheaters looking to feel better about themselves. The elephant in the room vis-a-vis Perel is that explaining a thing is not the same as excusing it.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 11:54 AM, August 16th (Friday)]

Thumos posted 8/16/2019 11:53 AM

"I'm curious to know what excuse she has tried to use to explain why she chose to engage in infidelity, and why she chose this specific AP."

She literally has no explanation. But if you're talking about blameshifting, she has rewritten the history of our marriage to portray it as an Arctic hellscape and has laid the adultery at the feet of "problems in our marriage." She's repeatedly said she thought I wouldn't care, and that she became angry and resentful when I started realizing she was having an affair (like "where was all this concern before?")

The issue I have with this is that it isn't accurate - I know because I was there in that marriage too. We had a good marriage. It wasn't a great marriage and had its share of ups and downs, challenges, communication issues, waxing and waning of passion back and forth, some baby sex droughts, lots of great sex, lots of closeness and intact family and contentment. It wasn't a Hollywood romance, but it was a good marriage. A whole lot right and not much wrong. I could have been a better husband. She could have been a better wife. This is true of almost every single marriage on the planet. Certainly not enough wrong to drop a radioactive dirty bomb in the middle of it. I'm not going to say much more than that, because I hate seeing BH/BW's put in the position of constantly justifying the status of their marriage before the affair. We all know that adultery happens in good marriages all the time. It's becoming an increasingly apparent fact.

Anyway as far as why him, why this guy? I don't know. Proximity, he gave her the feelz and the tingles, he complimented her constantly, he called and texted her constantly, he hung out around our house constantly, and he approached her brazenly in the dark one night on a neighborhood walk of a group of people. I was there but walking up ahead talking to his wife so didn't see it. I don't care if she sees this, frankly. She'll be enraged I'm sure and butthurt, but she's the one who set this all in motion.

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:54 PM, August 16th (Friday)]

Thumos posted 8/16/2019 11:57 AM

Also, she's said firmly in several conversations that he made her feel emotionally like no man has. Ever. She also told me she missed him.

End of discussion. I wasn't sure where to go with that.

She has amended this on occasion to say that she realizes this was a fantasy. But these are just words, and if you think about it, she's saying a lot of deeply contradictory things. On the one hand, the sex was meaningless, starfish, robotic and she didn't have an orgasm. The whole relationship was a feel-good fling, a little harmless romance, not serious. BUT. On the other hand he made her feel so damn good that no other man, including me, can even measure up. AND.... she also loves me so much and wants to spend the rest of her life making it all up to me.

Hmmm.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:58 AM, August 16th (Friday)]

Thumos posted 8/16/2019 12:08 PM

I want to say also that I genuinely enjoy her company and still do (even as my deeper passion for her seems to be flatlining). She's a warm, fun person to be around. She's beautiful and much younger looking than her age. People like her. She's sweet. She's a nurturing, loving mother. She's extroverted. I like having her on my arm. I used to have a great deal of pride that I had such a beautiful wife (now it off-and-on seems like a bittersweet joke to me). I'm attracted to her, but also repulsed by the thought of the OM being with her, touching her, having sex with her.

We click. We fit. We always have. We're sexually compatible (or so I thought). We both have healthy libidos. We share (or did share) a lot of common interests, tastes, and like to do things together: go to the movies, travel when we can, enjoy the mountains together, enjoy concerts, eat good food at restaurants and at home, play tabletop games, go for long walks, read for pleasure, talk about books, talk about movies, sit down at a nice bar in a nice restaurant and share drinks and talk. We share the same politics. Etc. Etc.

Butforthegrace posted 8/16/2019 12:08 PM

Divorced people successfully coparent children all the time. Keep in mind that one of the things children do growing up is watch mom & dad interact. In the future, they may pattern their own relationships based on what they see.

If your marriage becomes that Arctic hellscape because you are stuck in post-A limbo, the risk is they view that as normal.

Looks like we cross-posted. She's a pretty, charming woman whose company you enjoy. Except when you don't, like when she is extreme gaslighting you to enable an affair with some asshole she knows from the neighborhood.

I don't know if she has done any formal work to make herself into a safe partner. Sounds like she has not, though perhaps she has made inner changes and had inner revelations that have accomplished this.

Based on your posts, I think, as I said, you've gotten as much R as you're going to get from her. So you have your charming, beautiful, gracious wife, but you can't ever talk about the affair with her, even when you're triggered by seeing the POSOM or such. And I do wonder where this vector with sex will lead. How long will she remain an enthusiastic initiator if Sir Topham Hat continues to betray your true inner thoughts about her and sex?

Which brings me back to the dude you stare down in the mirror each morning. I still think it's true that if you stay in the marriage, at best, it will be a case of "doing what you're doing and getting what you're getting." At worst, she may decide that her efforts at R have fallen short, she may feel she has wasted her pearls before swine, and she may start up again with some other neighborhood asshole. Or, passion ebbs and you become roomates waiting out the high school graduation of your youngest.

In other words, I think the status quo is the best you'll get for the next ten or so years, and there is a potential for things to get worse.


[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 12:31 PM, August 16th (Friday)]

waitedwaytoolong posted 8/16/2019 12:37 PM

Yep, pretty close to my story. Same timing at about 25 years of marriage, in our house, in our bed (she is probably lying about that), with a guy she had no designs of leaving me for.

A few differences. My EX would have done anything to keep me. I got 98% of what happened out of her within the first week. There were no texts or trails, but she would have given those up in a second if she felt it would help her cause. Her not willing to do this is a terrible sign.

I stayed for 5 years after her affair. Things were not terrible, but the feeling I had for her after were about 60% of what they were before. We did have some fun, and sometimes I would even forget what happened for an hour or two, but like a bad cold they always came back.

Im not sure of your story, but it burned my ass that she got away with this virtually scott free. Not that she didn't suffer some. I think I told her maybe twice in 5 years that I loved her without replying to her if she told me. Anniversaries were off the table, and sex became just a release for me. But, our kids, friends, didn't know and by all outside apearances nothing changed except her friends though I was an asshole cause I spent very little time with her after.

If I could do it over, I would have left at the three year mark. The first year, I was in a total rage. I just couldn't think straight. I was in no position to make a decision. I don't regret giving it a go, but instead of staying for another 4 years, I would have pulled the plug after two. That gave me enough time to realize that I was just not going to be one of the guys who could just let this pass.

I knew that unlike some others here, our marriage would never be better. It wasn't perfect, but pre affair it was pretty good. The marriage 2.0 was just going to be ok. I didn't want to be in ok, and I didn't want to be pissed off all the time about it like I was.

It was brutally hard to leave. Some people here might remember as I went though it when I joined. Leaving a remorseful WS is 10 times harder than leaving one that didn't care. I still have guilt over it. She is a basket case now with depression. But in the end she brought it on herself as yours did if you ever left.

I think part of your misery is she isn't doing everything you need. She needs to be told that you are on the fence and she needs to step up her game. That means giving you 100% of what went down. she is in control, you need to take that back.

Thumos posted 8/16/2019 13:19 PM

Things were not terrible, but the feeling I had for her after were about 60% of what they were before. We did have some fun, and sometimes I would even forget what happened for an hour or two, but like a bad cold they always came back.

Man, that hits hard and very close to home. It's like I can kind of force myself to forget for a short time in order to give my mind a break and just enjoy life for a few hours, but it always comes back and it's always on the periphery like a shadow. I'll give her a hug and part of me enjoys it and the other part just feels this raw nerve pain inside coursing through my body.

Occasionally my wife will say "you're not getting better, you're getting worse and I'm worried you are going to want to leave me."

In addition to being a quasi-friend and the parent of our youngest child's best friend, the OM was also a contractor for us on some work on the home. So you and I seem to have an astounding amount in common.

I knew that unlike some others here, our marriage would never be better. It wasn't perfect, but pre affair it was pretty good. The marriage 2.0 was just going to be ok. I didn't want to be in ok, and I didn't want to be pissed off all the time about it like I was.

Again, damn. Very close to home. This is actually part of why I feel this complex multi-layered guilt. That I'm a lesser man because I can't seem to get over it and have a better marriage. I feel shame over this. I know she'll be devastated if I decided to call it quits. I know she loves me. I know she's sorry, but I just can't tell myself she's 100 percent sorry or that I'm not seeing classic symptoms of regret vs actual remorse. I know she feels regret and shame. They all do unless they are some kind of sociopath. But that's different from remorse. It's different from true empathy for what they've done to a BH/BW

Thumos posted 8/16/2019 13:23 PM

It was brutally hard to leave.

How long has it been since the divorce was finalized? Can I ask you how your life is now since you and I seem to be fairly close in age? Is it better for you?

Marz posted 8/16/2019 13:30 PM

She says she is remorseful and I ought to be able to work with that,

You'll hear this a lot and it's true.

Her words are meaningless.

You aren't in R. You just stayed.

You have choices. It's really up to you.

Marz posted 8/16/2019 13:36 PM

It took me three years to finally piece all this together, and I feel like such a sadsack idiot it took me so long. In any case, knowing that she planned the day, the location, the timing, and the attire contradicts her entire line which has been, "it just happened, he approached me in the house, it was awkward, I didn't enjoy it, I didn't orgasm, I don't know if he ejaculated or not."

Pretty typical cheater script. Nothing but lies.

You should inform her other mans wife. It's a mistake to help hide affairs it just enables bad behavior.

You sound like you're starting to wake up. Keep moving forward.

Marz posted 8/16/2019 13:45 PM

Sorry to see another deplorable MC story. Lie, hide, deny, blameshift and rugsweep to save the marriage at your expense.

Unfortunately it's very typical. You should sue for your money back.

The MC probably never counted on you waking up to reality or questioning anything. Pretty damned sad.

[This message edited by Marz at 1:47 PM, August 16th (Friday)]

Butforthegrace posted 8/16/2019 13:48 PM

It only occurred to me very recently that definitively these must have been the panties she was wearing the day that they had sex. And that she must have bought them at Victoria's Secret FOR HIM (I now know this because before confronting I'd found a Victoria's Secret sack with new bras and panties tucked away in our closet). It took me three years to finally piece all this together, and I feel like such a sadsack idiot it took me so long. In any case, knowing that she planned the day, the location, the timing, and the attire contradicts her entire line which has been, "it just happened, he approached me in the house, it was awkward, I didn't enjoy it, I didn't orgasm, I don't know if he ejaculated or not."

Have you confronted her about this?

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