"You can survive this. Talk to others that have"

1lifeoflies posted 5/12/2019 22:43 PM

This letter could apply to any number of situations, lacks specifics as you state. Does it sound like her writing style. As I started reading, I was thinking plagiarism.

Rustylife posted 5/12/2019 23:26 PM

Has she ever loved you man? I have no idea what your courtship and marriage was like. Why does she want to stay married? She has never in your entire relationship displayed an interest in you. Absolutely zero passion. Maybe the guilt makes her stay a while but there are fundamental incompatibilities here man. I even said it in your JFO. You can't negotiate desire/passion. Why did she stay with you during this time? I'd love to know her answer.

Rustylife posted 5/12/2019 23:30 PM

As for the letter, it's alright I suppose. Nothing specific but not much more you can expect at this stage. Your healing is independent of the letters and the check boxes you make her tick.

Buster123 posted 5/13/2019 11:19 AM

Based on what you've posted and her letter, she's been a SERIAL CHEATER for your entire M, in essence your M has been a sham, plus she still admits even today she would have most likely taken this to the grave had you not found out, you have not been married that long, you were supposed to still be in a honeymoon phase when she started cheating on you, I would suggest you cut your losses now and D, let me ask you a question, what exactly are you trying to save besides not having to co-parent in different homes? I think she just regrets getting caught, she felt "invincible", btw has she ever apologized to your family for her huge betrayal ? if not why not ?

Robert22205https posted 5/13/2019 12:16 PM

I'm not familiar with your story. Just wanted to say that the letter did not provide any details as to what your wife did. Just a lot of very general empty words.

dancin-gal posted 5/13/2019 12:56 PM

As I read the letter .. I see remorse.. which is good.. as every one has said they are only words..
My WS .. D-Day 3 a month ago .. said the words.. he has been totally transparent .. credit card accounts.. and all info on his A.. He just walked in and told me I was "awesome."... he is feeding my emotional recovery..He is seeing a therapist once or twice week.. trying to unlock his behavior pattern and why..he acted as he did..actions I see as positive are happening ..
Actions you need to see are those of total honesty .. no half truths.. or self protection lies ... it takes time .. all baby steps.. it is not easy to stay.. so much easier to walk away. Take the time to heal yourself ..

OptionedOut posted 5/13/2019 14:30 PM

No mention of what she did. There are a lot of 'I" statements. I don't deserve' etc.

That's ME thinking. Still. Where are the "You didn't deserve to be treated..." Where are the "You deserve better, and so I'll do everything in my power to be someone worthy of you..."

Lots of analogies, but no real reasons for what kind of person you were - what she knows she lost.

The thing that bothers me is that she is a serial cheater, she admits to blowing you off. Those I statements. It's all about what you could do FOR her, but not what you meant to her.

I don't see any plan of what she intends to do to fix herself or what she wants to do to help you. She doesn't address your feelings. Does she know what those even are?

It feels off.

OptionedOut posted 5/13/2019 15:18 PM

Maybe I'm truly cynical. Okay, no. I'm cynical. I don't think someone who does this for YEARS and never chooses their spouse can just turn over a new leaf like this 'seems' to imply. My interpretations, even though I'd totally want an apology letter.

Maybe I needed that extra time to truly understand and see my behavior through your eyes and not how I wanted to remember those times. To see the truth as it was and not as I thought you were seeing it.

My therapist suggested that I write this. Let's call it behavior instead of an affair. I wanted to recall my f buddies with great warmth and memories. I wanted you to keep being the chump and just deal with it. Sorry. Not sorry. It would have been easier on me to write I WILL NOT CHEAT on a blackboard a hundres times.

I was the most selfish human being on the planet. The times when I should have been throwing every part of myself into you and building a relationship with you and instead I was only thinking of myself and cheating you out of everything you yearned desperately for, begged for and truly deserved.

You begged, pleaded. Asked daily. Explained. Tried talking to me. I was selfish and thinking about me... or maybe those other guys. I heard what they wanted and needed loud and clear. You? Not so much.

Building materials and bubble gum and MacGiver references I found on the web.

I psychologically abused you by doing all this.

Here's what I did. Without all the sex stuff I did with other men. And all that feeling stuff - mostly your feelings.

I gave all of those exact same things effortlessly to others and made you feel like a fool at the same time.

So it's not like I can't hear or anything. I chose them over you. And you were a fool, because that's the only feeling I know you felt. Hurt? Devastation? Let's not go that far, okay? Let's insert more bubble gum and scotch tape talk and forget about those pesky feelings of yours and those wedding vows I don't want to own up to.

I said the words but I gave half-assed efforts and whatever effort was given was null and void by the attention, wants and thoughts that I invested into others at the same time.

I manipulate people. It's what I do to get what I want. I wanted you to care for the kids and be the adult. I wanted to share what I should have shared with you with other men. It's not that over X years that I couldn't have, it's just that doing those things with you and for you never crossed my mind. Except now that I'll lose everything, so here! More words! Bunches of them! Forget what I did for other men, both sexually and emotionally. I give you WORDS!

I thought I could have it all. I thought your feelings and needs were irrelevant and you would just deal and we would go on with our lives.

I'm screwing and investing in other men. You? Not so much. But I always thought you'd be there to take care of the kids, the lawn, the bills. And besides, I thought there would be plenty of time for us when we get really old and need a purse and a nurse. Until then? You weren't really human and had no feelings, at least none that were my concern.

You couldn’t understand where the passion was. It was blatantly lacking and not only did I not offer it to you- I gave it to someone else- and I laughed and belittled your need by saying there is no such thing in our circumstances and that the first year of marriage was supposed to be hard. I didn’t attribute our fights and our problems to my not caring about or satisfying your needs.

Give kindness, passion and intimacy to you? Why would I do that when I have others? When I had pillow talk with the others, you were the joke. I actually thought it was funny the way you hurt! I was perfect! How could there possibly be anything wrong with me? And where's my trophy? I showed up for this marriage thing.

At the time I was mostly oblivious to my actions. Now I hate myself. I hate that I could have been such an evil and cruel person to someone who loved me so wholeheartedly that you gave me a million chances. Even AFTER dday you have given me a million chances. I think everyday about what I did to you.

I had no idea I was fucking other men. Caution: White Knight Opportunity coming... I hate myself now. Please comfort me and tell me I'm not awful. I think about what I did to you everyday - except all those years I was actually doing it, because I didn't know I was doing it. In fact, my vague and obtuse wording is because I'm only vaguely aware of my actions.

I took advantage of you in every way possible. Even after it was over and I was no longer investing myself into others I still stayed comfortable and didn’t give enough of myself into our marriage.

Vaguely, of course. From what little I recall. And when I didn't have anyone else? You still weren't worthy of what I gave others. Um, that I remember...

I was a liar. I was the best liar. If not for an accident I most likely would have continued to lie. No more lies.

See? I'm GOOD. Real good. I'm the best liar! Except when I'm telling you that I'm not lying. Then I want your forgiveness. And if I keep degrading myself here and there and not address your feelings, you'll be guilted into forgiving me, right? Because look at my words!

Our whole relationship I have been cruel and unfair to you. I broke your giving and generous heart into millions of pieces and now that I yearn for your heart as I should have from the beginning I am left with the shattered remains that will take so much time and healing to put back together.

Um, from what I can remember, I must have been cruel. Affairs are cruel, right? And mockery and laughter. Asking for a friend.

And now that you're not paying attention to me the way you used to, not chasing and begging and pleading, I'll write words to get the ego kibble back. Can't you see that getting that back is important to me? All the attention for ME!

You have the right to not try. The right to disconnect. The right to walk away. The right to be cruel and selfish. But as I spend every fiber of my being to change myself for the better for the sake of your continued love that’s all I can do. I can pray, I can hope, I can want- but I can’t expect or demand it.

You have the right to come down to my level because all I'm going to do is some wordsmithing and hoping and praying. Okay, maybe a hint of two of demanding and I'll through that forgive word around because no one likes people who can't forgive. Soooo bitter, those people. Anyway. I'm working hard at hoping and praying. That other stuff? That's work I don't want to do. You work at forgiving me though, okay?

Not one, not two, but 5 years worth of denying you and betraying you

That I recall. Those memories of them that I wanted to keep dear? Sometimes, they're fuzzy. Lke when I have to be specific. Except years. I know how many years you were a fool. Can't we just get back to that? And that forgiveness thing? Look! I have gum and scotch tape for your heart!

It’s up to you to forgive or give grace but regardless of your decision and what you will be able to muster

Have I mentioned that you need to forgive me? You want me to feel better, right? No? Okay, I'll think of a way to degrade myself briefly. Surely that will work because it's ME! I'm so good at manipulation. Marriag. Manipulation. They both start with M! And ME! That starts with M, too.

I thought I was invincible. I thought I could forever get away with it. If you hadn’t discovered it for yourself

And there was this 'accident!' The one where you found out. You were supposed to keep the status quo - me fucking around and you chasing and begging and being hurt. Forever. But now I have to write this stupid letter.

I apologize for deceiving you. Lying to you, belittling you, traumatizing you and playing you for a fool. For so many other losses…your loss of confidence, peace of mind, future dreams and plans, trust, sleep, health, your ability to celebrate and feel happiness, finances, time, productivity and focus, your whole belief system, your self-esteem, your spirit, hopes for the future, your faith in your me, your faith in God, even your faith in yourself. For the losses you haven’t even realized yet,

I'm now aware that I was unaware that I may have been aware that I was lying, deceiving, manipulating, traumatizing you. But not intentionally. I don't recall that part. Or the part where I know I made you a fool.

I looked up so many words in the thesaurus. In case I missed a few, sorry. But I grew tired of looking for words. But just know that never looked through a thesaurus for the other men. YOU are special!

Let me end this letter with the words faith and God. It might paint me in a better picture.

[This message edited by OptionedOut at 3:21 PM, May 13th (Monday)]

Furious1 posted 5/13/2019 16:45 PM

I have it in me to put my feelings aside and put your needs first.

To me, this line says way more than I think your WW intended. It tells me that putting your needs first is in direct conflict with her feelings. If she were truly remorseful and determined to be this better person, wouldn't her feelings go hand in hand with putting your needs first? To me, this statement is a big red flag.

You have the right to not try. The right to disconnect. The right to walk away. The right to be cruel and selfish.

I find this part troubling as well. She is labeling you refusing to take anymore of her mind games as you being cruel and selfish??? Wow. That is very disturbing coming from someone who has done as much as she has done for as long as she has done it. Yes, you do have every right to protect yourself from anymore of her cheating and abuse. That doesn't make you cruel or selfish. That simply makes you wise to her ongoing games. She is telling you what you want to hear, but even in her "apology letter", her abusive projection of accusing you of being cruel and selfish if you don't take more of her crap is mind blowing. Wow.

I don't buy a word of it. I've been there and done that with 23 years of the same kind of sweet crap and heartfelt realizations coming from XWH. I bought into it every time he wanted to pretend that he was sorry. But like your WW, XWH's mask slipped a lot too. Pay attention to those things because they are in keeping with her actions over the past 5 years of hell that she has put you through. She is showing you a taste of what you will get again if you choose to fall for her hollow words.

SaddestDad posted 5/13/2019 19:16 PM

Thank you all, for your feedback. I appreciate you taking the time to analyze and advise.

Phantasmagoria posted 5/13/2019 19:59 PM

I too received a letter along similar lines. Rather than pay attention to her words, I paid attention to what it made me "feel". In my case I felt 24-48 hours of retribution, quickly followed by indifference.

Don't just Clouseau her intent, please pay close attention to your heart and most importantly your gut!

firenze posted 5/13/2019 20:08 PM

Perhaps I'm also cynical, but I'm inclined to see things the way OptionedOut did in her post.

I've spoken to your wife in the Wayward forum, though I didn't know she was your wife until yesterday. The sense I get from her is that when it comes to relationships and in particular her relationship with you, she's just a lazy person who has no idea how to be an actual partner and who doesn't seem to have much drive to become better. This is a woman whose relationship history is one of escaping into the fantasy of affairs and never cultivating anything real. I'd bet that she neglected you and demanded much of you because she was disappointed that you couldn't give her the easy high she got from her affairs. I'd bet that she minimized her actions so thoroughly after DDay because she still believed she was entitled to that fantasy feeling and you weren't feeding it to her. I'd bet she's floundering now because she's finally in a position where she has to be real and do actual work in a relationship and she just doesn't know how.

None of that is to say you need to be patient with her. Her laziness, her ineptitude, her lack of character, those are all her problems and you're not obligated to stick around while she figures it out.

To me, her letter is pointless and full of platitudes, especially because it was something you had to ask for. There are no specifics and even more egregiously, there's no use of the word cheating or affair. She still doesn't want to use those words to characterize what she did. Further still, there's very little about what she plans to do to try and make amends, to win back your trust, to prove to you that she's worth another second of your time. It's a waste.

Because of her habit of being lazy and taking you for granted, I can understand why seeing her take initiative rather than take orders is so important to you. Personally, I think you should file for D and see if that changes while you wait until it can be finalized. If it doesn't, then be done with the marriage and her. She made a mockery of the marriage from the start anyways.

SaddestDad posted 5/13/2019 21:02 PM

In my case I felt 24-48 hours of retribution, quickly followed by indifference

Not understanding...

Phantasmagoria posted 5/14/2019 01:07 AM

Not understanding...

My bad...vindication is probably a better descriptor. The letter I received felt somewhat rewarding in that it was finally admission on her part that I was an amazing person, phenomenal Dad, etc.. Until that point she had cast me as a monster that through his actions and inactions caused her to have an affair. Obviously, I knew that was bullsh!t but nonetheless it felt rewarding, albeit fleeting, that she finally admitted some truths!

But with 24-48 hours following receipt of the letter I felt nothing, reinforcing that my decision to divorce was just further solidified. That doesn't mean I wasn't extremely saddened to make the decision. But by the time the letter came, I really didn't and don't care any more one way or another, which in and of itself is a very important milestone to reach.

[This message edited by Phantasmagoria at 1:09 AM, May 14th (Tuesday)]

LostHope8008 posted 5/14/2019 01:26 AM

I, for one, think the letter is sincere. I would have loved to have to have received anything near this from my wife. Although others claim that she never went into detail about what she did, I disagree. This part is very telling that she knows what she did was not only wrong, but very hurtful to you:

I apologize for deceiving you. Lying to you, belittling you, traumatizing you and playing you for a fool. For so many other losses…your loss of confidence, peace of mind, future dreams and plans, trust, sleep, health, your ability to celebrate and feel happiness, finances, time, productivity and focus, your whole belief system, your self-esteem, your spirit,

anoldlion posted 5/14/2019 02:09 AM

I think that SD's wife is sincere in her apology and really wants to fix what she has broken. But it appears, from what is written in the post here, no matter what she does it's going to be wrong. Somebody is going to find fault in what she does or how she does it. Everyone is different and does things in different ways. Some people have to be told what is needed. I have seen soldiers who were excellent at accomplishing task but first had to be told what task they needed to accomplish. As far as things that you think should have been in the apology letter, ask her. It could be something you need to talk face to face about. I agree that words mean very little. Actions are what matters. If SD needs to guide her toward these actions, then so be it. If the actions comes from her heart, does it really matter if she was guided toward them? Everyone says words mean very little but this is what she betrayed her husband with...words. They were just said to the wrong person. I do wish you well.

SaddestDad posted 5/14/2019 11:49 AM

I just want to say thank you again to everyone.
I know there were a bunch of 2x4's swung. I agree with some to an extent. Others, not so much (since I understand the way she writes and how hard any sort of "I'm sorry" is for her to admit/say).
I personally will admit that I did need some of the 2x4's, and I'm pretty sure that she got the picture from this thread as well.

That said, it was very hard to read many of these posts. It was even harder to admit that certain details from the harsh ones weren't exactly outlandish to believe, which is one of the main reasons that I kinda went silent.

WW and I definitely know that we have a long way to go. She definitely understands that she's nowhere close to saying that she's done (or fully doing) the work.

We're still going to continue trying to R. We both know what's at stake if it's not happening, and we've both accepted that D could be a potential outcome.

She may not have had significant progress as of yet, but honestly - can anyone EXPECT more only 3.5 months from Dday of a 3 YEAR LTEA with the POSOM who had her as the OW from 2009 through 2014?
I need to be more gentle in my approach. I know that. But I also need to be firm in my expectations, which need to be realistic.

Until we are financially able to start IC, the timeframe will obviously be stretched longer than either of us would like, but it is what it is.

As we all say, one day at a time... one moment at a time.