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Husband dating dead brother's ex-girlfriend

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MelMo426 posted 3/21/2019 10:16 AM

My brother in law was very sick and died about a month and a half ago. My husband came out to see him before he died, and I (and our infant daughter) flew out to support my husband the day of his death. The first couple of days were good. I took care of the baby and tried to be supportive of him and his family. On the day of the memorial service, we got into a stupid argument, and he banned me from attending the service. Afterwards, he got very drunk and ended up in the hospital (possible suicidal ideation and blackout). Angry over the situation, his family kicked me out, and my baby and I had to stay in a hotel, alone, until my flight back. While I was home and figuring out how to reconcile with my husband, he was becoming romantically involved with his dead brother's ex-girlfriend, the same woman who was flirting with him because he "looks like his brother" and had told his brother on his deathbed that she loved him. When my husband returned home a few days later, he announced he wanted a divorce and immediately proceeded on the process. That week I discovered he was indicating that he loves this woman, he is seeking a long distance romantic relationship with her right now, and is considering moving back to be with her and his parents.

This whole thing is INSANE, and I still can't wrap my head around it all. Why would someone do this? What do you think will happen? And what should I do?

In addition to his brother dying, the day after I flew out to be with him and his family, we all went to visit his grandma in the nursing home. While we were there, she had a mild heart attack and was rushed to the hospital. We spent the next 2 days and nights at the hospital. The baby and I would be dropped off at the house to sleep, but my husband stayed at the hospital and slept on a chair there, so he was definitely sleep deprived. At the same time, since there was nowhere for the baby to go or move around and she's in this unfamiliar place all day, she was mostly confined to the stroller and was very fussy. As a result, I was feeling anxious and stressed. (I should mention that my husband was in the room with his grandma but the baby and I were in the waiting room the whole time). So we were both not at our best when the argument happened.

The argument was over bottle washing. I had been watching the baby all morning without any help. He and his parents were going through photos of his dead brother to create a slideshow for the memorial service. I didn't ask for any help because I was giving them space to emotionally bond/grieve and handle their business. When my husband came to check on me and let me know that we were going to be heading out to the hospital again, I told him one of us needed to wash bottles to get the baby bag ready for another full day outside of the house. He flipped out. He started yelling about he has to do everything around here. (Side note, my husband doesn't handle stress well and is proned to spiraling out of control when he feels pressure to get multiple things done at a time). So I locked my baby in the bedroom (hearing her cry the whole time broke my heart) while I quickly washed bottles and got the bag ready. But I was pissed and hurt by his attitude and reaction towards me. I didn't say anything, because I didn't want to fight. I just needed some space and time to calm down. But he noticed that I seemed upset and started prodding me about it. At first, I told him to let it go. He refused and was determined to know why I was upset. So I told him. That's when he started arguing with me about how dare I get upset and how I should have just let go his flip out immediately. Then, as arguments with him do, I'm trying to defend myself, he's blaming me and attacking me and bringing up other stuff and getting historical. When he accused me of ruining his day and got more aggressive, I tried to apologise and cried and begged him to stop. That's when he disinvited me to the memorial.

I will own my part of the argument. Because it takes two to have an argument. Unfortunately this pattern of arguing between us has been deeply entrenched in our relationship.

We never had a "normal" relationship. We met while both of us were 6 months into the separation of our former spouses. In 2 1/2 weeks, we were engaged. In a month and a half, we were married (courthouse, eloped on day my divorce was final). In three months, I was pregnant. Now before anyone judges my situation, my previous marriage ended because my ex-husband did not want to have a child with me. I was 37 years old, my one desire in life was to be a mom, and that dream was slipping away. Then here comes this man who love bombed the hell out of me and wanted to marry me and have a child with me and he seemed so sweet and loving, how could I not??? Well, I realize now how stupid that was, but I/we were acting irrationally.

Buster123 posted 3/21/2019 10:30 AM

If he's already started the D process you need to get a lawyer immediately to protect your rights, prepare for child support and custody battle, your relationship seemed way too toxic anyway, you deserve much better, now that you have your child, be more careful and take your time before you choose your next partner.

inthedark99 posted 3/21/2019 10:40 AM

sorry you have found yourself here melmo426.
please please please read thru the healing library, then read it again.
make sure you are taking care of yourself physically. go see your dr and get tested for std’s. drink lots of water, get some exercise and reach out to family, close friends for support for you and your precious baby.
is the ex girlfriend married? does she has a significant other? if so, expose this affair to him. do the same to ws’s family. affairs survive on secrecy. remove that and you may have something to work with.
keep posting here. some seasoned si vets will be around soon for further help. you have been heard, and you’re not alone.

kiki1 posted 3/21/2019 10:41 AM

Wow Mel :( I'm sorry you had to experience all that. He disinvited you and his family threw you out after you flew out to assist them? With a baby? Nice people. I agree with Buster. Get moving and protect yourself and the baby. No judgement here, just hugs.

k94ever posted 3/21/2019 10:44 AM

Mel, I'm so sorry this is happening to you.

He wants out of marriage. You can't stop him and it's not your job to save him from himself.

Get a lawyer, protect your child and go live a wonderful, joyful life with that sweet baby. You are wise enough to realize you don't have to put up with a man-child.

I'm sorry, but it sounds like he handed you a gift and my suggestion is to take it.

k9

ibonnie posted 3/21/2019 10:56 AM

Oy. Just... oy.

How long have you two been together? A year? 18-months? Having a baby puts stress on the best of relationships, and yours (no offense) seems to have started under questionable circumstances. You both just happened to be separated from your respective spouses for 6-months? Is there any chance that that's what your WS was claiming to be in a similar situation to... bond with you? Get you to lower your guard? Is there any chance he was still very much involved in a relationship with his ex-wife, and his family views you as the other woman in this situation? Please forgive me if I'm totally off base, but once you've been cheated on, and you read enough posts on here and see so many similarities with other posters, you begin to get suspicious of people, their motives and any thing that seems like a red flag.

When my husband came to check on me and let me know that we were going to be heading out to the hospital again, I told him one of us needed to wash bottles to get the baby bag ready for another full day outside of the house. He flipped out.

So... I'm not going to lie or mince words. I don't think you were right here. Your husband and his parents were preparing for the memorial service of their brother/son. You should have just washed the bottles. Since you flew, I'm going to assume you had a carrier or stroller with you, so you could have worn the baby or put them in the stroller and pushed it back and forth with your foot while washing bottles. Easy? No. But reasonable to just handle it while they were dealing with grief and arrangements.

BUT.

His/their response of escalating things, disinviting you from the memorial and kicking you out seems pretty extreme. Part of this could have been due to the situation (death makes people -- especially Americans -- act kinda weird), but I also wonder if he eas looking to pick a fight to get rid of you so he could be an available shoulder for BILGFAP (brother-in-law's girlfriend/affair partner) to cry on. You sitting next to him would be a huge cockblock for things like being a literaly shoulder for her to lean upon.

This whole thing is INSANE, and I still can't wrap my head around it all. Why would someone do this? What do you think will happen? And what should I do?

And now for the part you're really not going to like... Why do you want to be with him? I undertand you two now share a daughter, but in the big scheme of things, it sounds like you two barely knew each other before jumping into huge, life changing decisions. Based on the timeline you mentioned, and that your daughter is still an infant, you two should still be in that early relationship infatuation period. And unfortunately it sounds more like you were either an affair or rebound relationship on your WS's part, and now he's moving on to someone else. Lucky them.

Anyways, I think that when most new BSs (betrayed spouses) post in JFO, they're really looking for a way to save their marriage and are hoping deep down that they're going to get some advice that looks like this:

Yes, this is insane, but if you do X and Y, your husband will wake up from this insanity and end the affair, and if you do Z, then you will live happily ever after with the marriage you had before.

Unfortunately, this is the advice we can offer instead:

Yes, this whole thing is insane. Most affairs are. But you cannot control your WS or make him want to choose you, your marriage, or your new family with your infant daughter. The only person you can control in this situation is yourself.

Yes, there are things you can do that make affairs easier to continue (like the "pick me dance" and trying to nice your spouse back to the marriage) or more difficult (like exposing the affair to family and friends and filing for divorce), but none of these things are guaranteed to cause any outcome, because, again, your WS has free will (just like you do), so you cannot control the choices that he ultimately decides to make.

Having said all that, this is my advice:
1. Consult with a lawyer or three to get advice about your situation. You don't have to file for divorce right now, but knowledge is power and the more you know, the less anxious and more empowered you will feel.
2. Go to therapy. Deal with the end of your marriage(s). Figure out what your boundaries are and what you will and will not accept in a relationship. Many BSs deal with symptoms of PTSD.
3. Get tested for STDs.
4. Speak to your therapist and/or doctor if you're having trouble functioning about antidepressants. Zoloft is safe to take if you're nursing.
5. TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF. If you have trouble eating, try sipping on protein shakes throughout the day. Stay hydrated. You have a little baby counting on you, so you need to prioritize self-care and being kond to yourself. Many BSs lose 10, 20, 30lbs. very quickly, have trouble sleeping, end up sick or in the hospital from exhaustion. Be kind. Tell your family and friends, and lean on them for support right now.

I'm truly sorry that you're here right now, but please know that we've all (unfortunately) been there, too, and are here to offer hindsight, wisdom, advice and support whenever you may need it.

Dismayed2012 posted 3/21/2019 11:14 AM

So your first marriage ended because no child. Then you immediately jumped into volital marriage because child promised. Then your current husband's love bombing another vulnerable woman because you want help with what he considers your kid. Did you ever talk to his previous wife to ask why they divorced?

There's never any excuse for cheating or 'dating' someone besides the one you're married to. Don't take this as judging; just an observation from afar. You both sound like broken people. If you're not both going to work on your individual attitudes and lose your expectations and replace them with gratefulness, there's no point in staying together. You can only change yourself, the other person has to change themself. It's going to take a lot of hard work to save what you have.

A 'normal' relationship is not automatic, it's something that you work to create together. As much as is possible, you both should sit down together and calmly discuss what you each want for your lives. Determine if what you want individually is complimentary to the other. If you find that you can't calmly camp on common ground, then calmly decide how you want to divide the assets and how you're going to handle visitation and child support. If you do find that you have common ground to build upon, then he should be willing to end his relationship with the other woman, and focus his time and attention on his family. Moving forward would include you each working on your emotional problems, you each letting go of all expectations for each other, and you both focusing on what you like about the other and being grateful for what good there is. Additionally, you should both sign a hand-written agreement that anger and arguing is banned from your home; post it on the refrigerator. And regardless of what is going on at any given moment, you both must agree to put the child aside, sit down, and calmly, honestly, and openly discuss whatever is on one's mind any time you sense a problem arising. Starting off with daily scheduled 20 minute evening meetings (without the child) is a good way to start. A scheduled weekly or bi-weekly date night where you hire a babysitter and go to the park or walking or lay in bed together or anything would help too.

I feel like I'm going way off track here. I wish the best for you.

FEEL posted 3/21/2019 11:39 AM


This whole thing is INSANE, and I still can't wrap my head around it all. Why would someone do this? What do you think will happen? And what should I do?
The thing that jumped out in your post was the question, why would someone do this. As time goes on for me (went through 2A's and now D) the more time I spend here trying to give back, there appears to be a common theme to people that come in here, myself included. The theme is,the BS tries to figure out what is going on with the WS and why they have done what they have done. Following that the BS seems to spend time trying to figure out what to do to change the WS and get things back to the way they thought it would be.

With the past experience behind me, it's so clear now what's really important is for the BS to realize the only person that can change the ways of the WS is the WS themselves. With that in mind it's important for the BS to start focusing on themselves. This is where the 180 comes in (check out the healing library).

Edie posted 3/21/2019 11:55 AM

We never had a "normal" relationship. We met while both of us were 6 months into the separation of our former spouses. In 2 1/2 weeks, we were engaged. In a month and a half, we were married (courthouse, eloped on day my divorce was final). In three months, I was pregnant. Now before anyone judges my situation, my previous marriage ended because my ex-husband did not want to have a child with me. I was 37 years old, my one desire in life was to be a mom, and that dream was slipping away. Then here comes this man who love bombed the hell out of me and wanted to marry me and have a child with me and he seemed so sweet and loving, how could I not???


....pattern of argument that seems entrenched in our relationship

I’m not quoting these as causal to his choice to have an affair with the woman seeking to replace his brother, but I am interested in the quality of the marriage since the decision to marry so quickly. Because yes it does sound so sudden and insane, so I’m trying to see any patterns.

It sounds like dreadfully stressful situation - not just illness and death of the brother but tha additional anxiety and stress of caring for the grandmothert - for everybody but I’m really confused why he would so peremptorily ban you from the memorial. And then equally peremptorily why you would be kicked out by his family. Has there been a history of division and strife there?

ThisIsSoLonely posted 3/21/2019 11:57 AM

Why do you want to be with him? I undertand you two now share a daughter, but in the big scheme of things, it sounds like you two barely knew each other before jumping into huge, life changing decisions. Based on the timeline you mentioned, and that your daughter is still an infant, you two should still be in that early relationship infatuation period. And unfortunately it sounds more like you were either an affair or rebound relationship on your WS's part, and now he's moving on to someone else. Lucky them.

Honestly I'm of two minds about this.

1) The advice that everyone is giving you to look into contesting or at least helping yourself in a divorce and protect yourself - and the custody of your child. I'm guessing, unless you're in a community property state, that as your marriage is very new, there will not be many marital assets, if any, to divide. I am also guessing, that aside from child support issues, there will be little coming your way in terms of spousal support (unless you're in a fault based state and even then the length of your marriage WILL matter). What I'm saying is get your financial ducks in a row as best you can RIGHT NOW. Getting your financial shi_ together does not mean you have to act on it - being prepared will HELP A LOT regardless of what ends up happening.

2) It doesn't matter why you want to stay with him - you do. I can ask all the probing questions about why and it won't matter. You have to decide what you are willing to put up with. Period. No one else can do it for you.

3) I am admittedly NOT a big fan of kids (never had them, never wanted them) and there would be FEW circumstances that I would force someone (nevertheless the wife of my son) with a small baby to stay in a hotel if they flew to assist with/be there for support for a close relative's funeral. I get that tensions are high during a time like this, but if you look at that behavior from his family, it's not hard to see where he got the duck and run attitude.

4) He seems to be a relationship jumper - someone who needs to have someone around. What were the alleged problems with his last marriage? How long did it last? Does there seem to be a pattern?

If he says he wants to leave, you can't stop him. He very well may change his mind, but for now, you are stuck where you are. Protect yourself the best you can and see what happens from there.

SisterMilkshake posted 3/21/2019 12:17 PM

So... I'm not going to lie or mince words. I don't think you were right here. Your husband and his parents were preparing for the memorial service of their brother/son. You should have just washed the bottles. Since you flew, I'm going to assume you had a carrier or stroller with you, so you could have worn the baby or put them in the stroller and pushed it back and forth with your foot while washing bottles. Easy? No. But reasonable to just handle it while they were dealing with grief and arrangements.
Well, I am not going to mince words, ibonnie, I feel that is fucked up. Blaming the victim. And, she is definitely the victim. She asked for help with their baby. That wasn't selfish, it was a fact to be able to get moving to the hospital. He seemed to have enough time to berate his wife and then get into some stupid argument.

And, am I understanding this correctly:

the same woman who was flirting with him because he "looks like his brother" and had told his brother on his deathbed that she loved him.
this OW told a dying man, that she supposedly loved, that she loved his brother? WOW! That is so sad and disgusting. My heart is breaking for that dead man.
Why would someone do this? What do you think will happen? And what should I do?
Grief can make people do crazy shit. However, it also sounds like your WH is very impulsive. The two combined can make for some crazy choices. I think he will do whatever it is he wants to do, he will divorce you, and just move on with his life. You should make sure that you and your child are fully protected and get as much as you possibly can in the divorce and not let him off lightly.

I know you haven't given me a lot of details but I have a gut feeling about your WH. I believe he could be a psychopath. Here is some excerpts from a blog that I read that helped me understand these kind of people.

So far I’ve asked you to imagine a person who lacks empathy for others and the capacity to feel any emotion deeply. I’ve asked you to imagine a person who is plagued by restlessness and boredom and finds sole satisfaction in duping, manipulating and controlling others. A person who may simulate respect or politeness, but who fundamentally regards others with contempt, as objects to be used for his temporary diversion or satisfaction. A person who suffers from an incurable and absolute egocentrism.

But even this doesn’t even begin to give you a full picture of the extent of a psychopath’s emotional poverty. It may describe what a psychopath can’t feel, but to understand how and why the psychopath is driven to harm others, you need to also get a sense of what a psychopath does feel. Psychopaths can’t tolerate loneliness. Just as all human beings can’t survive physically without food and water, psychopaths can’t survive emotionally without victims.

Of course, psychopaths regard love with contempt. They view loving and loyal couples as an ugly, undifferentiated blob. Because they can’t experience or even understand love and loyalty, they see moral individuals as weak. They have nothing but disdain for the emotions that normal human beings feel. But at the same time, psychopaths can’t live without feeding upon the real and deeper emotions of people who care about them, of individuals who can love: in other words of the people they use, abuse, toy with, lie to and hurt.

Psychopaths are often sexual predators. But even more often, and certainly more fundamentally, they’re emotional predators. What they want from their victims is far more than possessing their bodies or sex. They need to feed their insatiable appetite for harm, as well as sustain their sense of superiority, by possessing and destroying others inside and out, body and soul. A psychopath’s emotional framework is like a vacuum that needs to suck out the emotional energy from healthy individuals in order to survive. This is why I have called psychopaths real-life vampires, that we need to understand and worry about far more than their fictional counterparts.

A psychopath lacks much more than empathy for others in his emotional repertoire. He also lacks the capacity to experience any kind of emotion that requires deeper insight and psychological awareness. He experiences only proto-emotions, which are as short-lived as they’re intense. That doesn’t make them any less dangerous, however. The evidence points to the fact that Scott Peterson and Neil Entwistle preplanned their murders weeks in advance. But Mark Hacking seems to have acted more or less on impulse, after having fought with his wife. If we believe his confession to his brothers, Mark was in the process of packing up his things, ran across a revolver and shot Lori while she was asleep.

When angry or frustrated, a psychopath is capable of anything, even if his anger will dissipate a few minutes later. As Hervey Cleckley observes, “In addition to his incapacity for object love, the psychopath always shows general poverty of affect. Although it is true that be sometimes becomes excited and shouts as if in rage or seems to exult in enthusiasm and again weeps in what appear to be bitter tears or speaks eloquent and mournful words about his misfortunes or his follies, the conviction dawns on those who observe him carefully that here we deal with a readiness of expression rather than a strength of feeling.” (The Mask of Sanity, 349)

The proto-emotions experienced by a psychopath tie in, once again, to the satisfaction or frustration of his immediate desires: “Vexation, spite, quick and labile flashes of quasi-affection, peevish resentment, shallow moods of self-pity, puerile attitudes of vanity, and absurd and showy poses of indignation are all within his emotional scale and are freely sounded as the circumstances of life play upon him. But mature, wholehearted anger, true or consistent indignation, honest, solid grief, sustaining pride, deep joy, and genuine despair are reactions not likely to be found within this scale.” (The Mask of Sanity, 349)
For this reason, psychopaths don’t feel distress even when they land in jail. Even there they take pleasure in manipulating their fellow inmates and the prison staff. Even from there they write letters to people outside to use them for money, amusement and possibly even sex. Nothing ruffles a psychopath’s feathers for long. The same emotional shallowness that leads him to be unresponsive to the needs of others and to experience no remorse when he hurts them also enables him to feel little or no distress when he, himself gets hurt. So far, I’ve covered the emotions psychopaths can’t feel. I’ve also had the opportunity to witness up-close and personal the emotions a psychopath can feel, however. That’s what I’ll describe next.

The Psychopath’s Emotions: What Does He Feel?
1) Glee. A psychopath feels elation or glee whenever he gets his way or pulls a fast one on somebody. I can still recall O.J. Simpson’s reaction to getting away with murder (at least in my own opinion and that of a lot of other people who watched the trial, if not in the eyes of the jury): his celebratory glee at pulling a fast one on the American public, on the system of justice and especially on the victims and their families.

2) Anger. Robert Hare notes in Without Conscience that since psychopaths have low impulse control, they’re much more easily angered than normal people. A psychopath’s displays of anger tend to be cold, sudden, short-lived and arbitrary. Generally you can’t predict what exactly will trigger his anger since this emotion, like his charm, is used to control those around him. It’s not necessarily motivated by something you’ve done or by his circumstances. A psychopath may blow up over something minor, but remain completely cool and collected about a more serious matter. Displays of anger represent yet another way for a psychopath to demonstrate that he’s in charge. When psychopaths scream, insult, hit, or even wound and kill other individuals, they’re aware of their behavior even if they act opportunistically, in the heat of the moment. They know that they’re harming others and, what’s more, they enjoy it.

3) Frustration. This emotion is tied to their displays of anger but isn’t necessarily channeled against a particular person, but against an obstacle or situation. A psychopath may feel frustrated, for example, when his girlfriend doesn’t want to leave her current partner for him. Yet he may be too infatuated with her at the moment to channel his negative emotions against her. He may also believe that his anger would alienate her before he’s gotten a chance to hook her emotionally. In such circumstances, he may become frustrated with the situation itself: with the obstacles that her partner or her family or society in general pose between them. Psychopaths generally experience frustration when they face impersonal barriers between themselves and their current goals or targets. But that’s also what often engages them even more obstinately in a given pursuit. After all, for them, overcoming minor challenges in life is part of the fun.

4) Consternation. As we’ve seen so far, psychopaths don’t create love bonds with others. They establish dominance bonds instead. When those controlled by a psychopath disapprove of his actions or sever the relationship, sometimes he’ll experience anger. But his immediate reaction is more likely to be surprise or consternation. Psychopaths can’t believe that their bad actions, which they always consider justifiable and appropriate, could ever cause another human being who was previously under their spell to disapprove of their behavior and reject them. Even if they cheat, lie, use, manipulate or isolate others, they don’t feel like they deserve any repercussions as a result of that behavior. In addition, psychopaths rationalize their bad actions as being in the best interest of their victims.
For instance, if a psychopath isolates his partner from her family and persuades her to quit her job and then, once she’s all alone with him, abandons her to pursue other women, he feels fully justified in his conduct. In his mind, she deserved to be left since she didn’t satisfy all of his needs or was somehow inadequate as a mate. In fact, given his sense of entitlement, the psychopath might even feel like he did her a favor to remove her from her family and friends and to leave her alone in the middle of nowhere, like a wreck displaced by a tornado. Thanks to him, she can start her life anew and become more independent.
To put it bluntly, a psychopath will kick you in the teeth and expect you to say “Thank you.” Being shameless and self-absorbed, he assumes that all those close to him will buy his false image of goodness and excuse his despicable actions just as he does. In fact, he expects that even the women he’s used and discarded continue to idealize him as a perfect partner and eagerly await his return. That way he can continue to use them for sex, money, control, his image or any other services if, when and for however long he chooses to return into their lives.
When those women don’t feel particularly grateful—when, in fact, they feel only contempt for him–the psychopath will be initially stunned that they have such a low opinion of him. He will also feel betrayed by these women, or by family members and friends who disapprove of his reprehensible behavior. Although he, himself, feels no love and loyalty to anyone, a psychopath expects unconditional love and loyalty from all those over whom he’s established a dominance bond.
This mindset also explains psychopaths’ behavior in court. Both Scott Peterson and Neil Entwistle seemed outraged that the jury found them guilty of murder. Psychopaths believe that those whom they have hurt, and society in general, should not hold them accountable for their misdeeds. After all, in their own minds, they’re superior to other human beings and therefore above the law. How dare anybody hold them accountable and punish them for their crimes!

5) Boredom. This is probably the only feeling that gives psychopaths a nagging sense of discomfort. They try to alleviate it, as we’ve seen, by pursuing cheap thrills, harming others and engaging in transgressive behavior. Nothing, however, can relieve for long the psychopath’s fundamental ennui. He gets quickly used to, and thus also bored with, each new person and activity.

6) Histrionic flashes. I’m not sure if this is an emotion, but I know for sure that the psychopath’s dramatic displays of love, remorse and empathy lack any meaning and depth. If you watch the murder trials on the news or on Court TV, you’ll notice that some psychopaths convicted of murder often put on shows of grief, sadness or remorse in front of the jury. The next moment, however, they’re joking around and laughing with their attorneys or instructing them in a calm and deliberate manner about what to do and say on their behalf. The displays of emotion psychopaths commonly engage in are, of course, fake. They’re tools of manipulation–to provoke sympathy or gain trust–as well as yet another way of “winning” by fooling those around them.
I’ve already mentioned that Neil Entwistle engaged in such histrionic behavior. If you’ve followed crime features on the news, you may have noticed that Casey Anthony, the young woman accused of killing her toddler, behaves similarly. She was observed going out to dance and party at clubs with friends the day after her daughter, Caylee, disappeared. Casey’s lack of concern for her missing child doesn’t necessarily prove that she murdered her. But it reveals highly suspicious and callous behavior. It also casts doubt upon the brief and dramatic displays of grief or concern that she sometimes puts on in front of the media and for her parents.

7) Infatuation. When they identify someone as a good potential target, psychopaths can become obsessed with that particular person. In Without Conscience, Hare compares the psychopath’s focused attention upon his chosen target to a powerful beam of light that illuminates only one spot at a time. He also likens it to a predator stalking its prey. Because psychopaths tend to ignore other responsibilities (such as their jobs and their families) and have no conscience whatsoever, they can focus on pursuing a given target more intensely than multi-dimensional, loving men could. This is especially the case if their target presents an exciting challenge, such as if she’s rich or famous, or if she’s married to another man, which triggers their competitive drive. This single-minded infatuation, however, like all of their proto-emotions, is superficial and short-lived. Because for psychopaths such obsessions don’t lead to any genuine friendship, caring or love, they dissipate as soon as they get whatever they wanted from that person, which may be only the conquest itself.

8) Self-love (sort of). Since psychopaths only care about themselves, one would think that self-love would be the one emotion they could experience more deeply. In a sense that’s true, since their whole lives revolve around the single-minded pursuit of selfish goals. But this is also what makes psychopaths’ self-love as shallow as the rest of their emotions. Just as they’re incapable of considering anyone else’s long-term interest, they’re incapable of considering their own. By pursuing fleeting pleasures and momentary whims, psychopaths sabotage their own lives as well. Rarely do they end up happy or successful. They spend their whole lives hurting and betraying those who loved and trusted them, using and discarding their partners, disappointing the expectations of their families, friends, bosses and colleagues and moving from one meaningless diversion to another. At the end of the road, most of them end up empty-handed and alone.

9) CONTEMPT. I’ve capitalized this word because this is the emotion that dominates a psychopath’s whole identity and way of looking at other human beings. No matter how charming, other-regarding and friendly they may appear to be on the outside, all psychopaths are misanthropes on the inside. A psychopath’s core emotion is contempt for the individuals he fools, uses and abuses and for humanity in general. You can identify the psychopath’s underlying contempt much more easily once he no longer needs you or once his mask of sanity shatters. As we’ve seen, psychopaths hold themselves in high regard and others in low regard. To describe the hierarchies they construct, I’ll use an analogy from my literary studies. I was trained in Comparative Literature during they heyday of Jacques Derrida’s deconstruction as it was being applied to pretty much everything: cultural studies, gender hierarchies, race relations, post-colonialism and the kitchen sink.
Although looking at life in general in terms of “indeterminate” binary hierarchies hasn’t proved particularly useful, this polarized worldview describes rather well the mindset of psychopaths. For such disordered, narcissistic and unprincipled individuals, the world is divided into superiors (themselves) and inferiors (all others); predators (themselves) and prey (their targets); dupers (themselves) and duped (the suckers). Of course, only giving psychopaths a lobotomy would turn these binary hierarchies upside down in their minds. This is where the applicability of Derrida’s deconstructive model stops. Although psychopaths consider themselves superior to others, they distinguish among levels of inferiority in the people they use, manipulate and dupe.
The biggest dupes in their eyes are those individuals who believe whole-heartedly that the psychopaths are the kind, honest, other-regarding individuals they appear to be. As the saying goes, if you buy that, I have some oceanfront property in Kansas to sell you. Such individuals don’t present much of a challenge for psychopaths. They’re usually quickly used up and discarded by them. The second tier of dupes consists of individuals who are lucid only when it comes to the psychopath’s mistreatment of others, not themselves. Wives and girlfriends who are clever enough to see how the psychopath cheats on, lies to, uses and manipulates other people in his life, but vain or blind enough to believe that they’re the only exception to this rule form the bulk of this group.

This brings to mind an episode of a popular court show I watched recently. A woman testified on behalf of the integrity and honesty of her boyfriend. As it turns out, he had cheated on his wife with her (and other women as well). But his girlfriend nonetheless staunchly defended his character. She maintained that even though she knew that her lover was a cheater and a liar, because she herself was such a great catch and because they had such a special and unique relationship, he was completely faithful and honest to her. The judge laughed out loud and added, “…that you know of!”

Women who are cynical enough to see the psychopath’s mistreatment of others yet gullible enough not to see that’s exactly what he’s doing to them constitute his preferred targets. Such women are not so naive as to present no challenge whatsoever for the psychopath. But they’re definitely blind enough to fall for his manipulation and lies. A psychopath will wrap several such women around his little finger. Those who finally see the psychopath’s mistreatment as a sign of his malicious and corrupt nature occupy the third rung of the hierarchy. They’re usually women who have been burned so badly by the psychopath that they don’t wish to put their hands into the fire again.

Claudia Moscovici, psychopathyawareness

The above may or may not apply. It is just something that I felt in my gut and jumped out to me. I have been here for a long time and I have learned to trust my gut.

I am so sorry for what you are going through. It isn't fair, it is insane. Please take care of yourself and your dear baby. Wishing you peace and serenity on your healing journey.

ibonnie posted 3/21/2019 12:44 PM

Well, I am not going to mince words, ibonnie, I feel that is fucked up. Blaming the victim. And, she is definitely the victim. She asked for help with their baby. That wasn't selfish, it was a fact to be able to get moving to the hospital. He seemed to have enough time to berate his wife and then get into some stupid argument.

I apologize if I offended you or MelMo426. It wasn't my intent, at all, to blame her, which is why I specifically said:

His/their response of escalating things, disinviting you from the memorial and kicking you out seems pretty extreme.
 

She didn't say that she asked for help, she said,

I told him one of us needed to wash bottles to get the baby bag ready for another full day outside of the house.

I truly am sorry... and this is tainted by my own experiences, but if I were dealing with the death of my brother and working on his memorial photos collage/video and my husband was watching the kids and said this to me, I would be annoyed AF and interpret this as a passive aggressiveway of saying, "I'm watching the baby. You need to wash the bottles." If the OP can handle being alone for days with the infant and flying solo with her (no easy task), then I would assume she could also manage to wash some bottles while simultaneously watching the baby.

Do I think she's the victim in this situation? Yes. Do I think her WS completely overreacted? 100% yes. But can I also think that she should have just washed some bottles and got ready to go, and let her WS just focus on dealing with memorial stuff and the very recent death of his brother, without it being interpreted that I'm somehow blaming her for his extremely uncalled for response? :/

Edited to add: I am genuinely sorry, because my intent was never to blame the victim. This just triggered me and reminded me of a conversation I had very recently with a friend where we noticed our partners don't outright ask for help or request things, so much as they announce or state things that need to be taken care of... and we (friend and I) realize we just do it.

"The baby needs a diaper change."

"I'm running low on clean laundry."

Meanwhile, if we notice the baby needs a diaper change, we change it. If we need clean clothes, we do laundry. And if we need help with a specific task, we say, "hey, can you do X?"

But I truly was not trying to blame OP for her husband's overreacting or his family kicking her AND the baby out.

[This message edited by ibonnie at 12:55 PM, March 21st (Thursday)]

Edie posted 3/21/2019 13:08 PM

I think there’s a middle ground here as SMS’s take on ‘the request’ to wash bottles is nuanced quite differently and to IbOnnie’s but I really don’t think your response was fucked up at all Bonnie, and it does like the water bottle thing was not handled by either of them well. (Her continuing to be pissed off could have been identified as sulking and unsupportive by a jaundiced sleep deprived eye). I do think it sounds like she was at that moment unfeeling to his stress and multiplying responsibilities,

Only having a summary report on the situation it’s difficult to discern nuances but WH’s first flipping out sounded a sleep deprived response to a huge amount of stress and grief;Mel was also feeling stressed after babyminding all day, hence probably not being cognisant of or that responsive to her WH’s stress - he had just been in long session planning the funeral after no sleep up being at the hospital with his grandmother. In that situation, it seems right that she assume the lions share of baby responsibility so that he could undertake the care of the people and many things he was trying to look after. It’s the escalation of his flipping out that seems extraordinarily disproportionate - the prodding and looking for a fight later, seeking to find her in the wrong, and then all that cascaded out later.

She describes his susceptibility to stress and multitasking as a known factor. Death and grief can precipitate breakdowns, but if this dynamic is entrenched as OP says, then it would be good to understand it, and how it has played out over what is only a very short marriage. I’m wondering what his attitude to fathering a child really is.

The suicide ideation and whatever else, including wierd and extreme susceptibility to the weird behaviour of his dead brothers girlfriend is alll highly erratic, but not sure if a diagnosis of psychopathy could be made on this evidence at all. But it’s good that Mel can measure his patterns against the list that SMS has provided.

[This message edited by Edie at 1:24 PM, March 21st (Thursday)]

SisterMilkshake posted 3/21/2019 13:23 PM

When people tell others what they "should" have done, I find that to be blaming.

Also, I am not making a diagnosis of psychopathy. I know the details MelMo426 are insufficient. But, the impulsivity, the love bombing, and him finding his new "victim" in his dead brothers GF screams personality disordered to me. And lets not forget, the dead brother's GF is, and was, the OW whilst he was screaming at her about taking care of baby needs.

Just my take and my gut. Take what you need, leave the rest.

Edie posted 3/21/2019 13:26 PM

We cross posted, SMS, I already added that the list you provided was going to be very helpful to the OP, as it certainly could be a possibility.

Edie posted 3/21/2019 13:26 PM

double posting.

[This message edited by Edie at 1:27 PM, March 21st (Thursday)]

Cooley2here posted 3/21/2019 15:34 PM

Regardless of what he said, yelled, did, or when. The guy is an idiot. I agree there is something disordered about him and his family and it might be time for you to just let go. Accept what the reality is with him.
I am sorry you have to deal with this but sometimes we have to look reality in the face and move on.

MamaDragon posted 3/21/2019 16:04 PM

Walk away....that family is all types of crazy - the OW told the dying brother she was going after his brother? HOW CRUEL!

He has been picking arguments & fights with you to justify leaving you. I bet if you research it more, that she was more involved with your hubby in the past...

Run to a lawyer and get away from him..

MelMo426 posted 3/21/2019 17:10 PM

In order to help fill in the gaps over my last post, here's some additional details...

Regarding the exact conversation on the bottle washing -
ME: before we leave for the hospital, we need to wash some bottles.
HIM: can you do it?
ME: well, I'm watching the baby. So I need you to either watch the baby or wash the bottles.
HIM: I HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING AROUND HERE!!!! (then goes on a tirade about all he has to do to prepare for the memorial).
ME: fine. i'll do it. go. (then i locked the baby in the bedroom while I washed bottles).

BTW, i forgot to bring my baby carrier and the stroller was folded and put away in the trunk of car.

As to the ex-wife issue... she cheated on him with a co-worker. He filed for divorce, and it was finalized before we met. I still had 4 months more to go before mine was finalized.

In regards to the nature of our marriage. We have been married 2 years. Everything was amazing until I got pregnant. Yes, some of it was me, as the hormones and water retention (I put on 10lbs of water weight in the first week and ended up putting on 55lbs during the pregnancy) made me irritable and grumpy at times. But he would never be able to let it go or call me out if I came off as bitchy. Instead, he would build up resentments then snap. The first week I was pregnant, he tried to commit suicide by hanging himself in the garage. I found him and cut him down (it was a very traumatic experience for the both of us). Then he began cutting himself, getting massively drunk and destroying property (holes in the walls and doors and broke 2 TVs), isolating with hobbies and obsessions for 4+ hours a day, running in the middle of a hurricane in his bare feet. Ultimately, he attempted suicide 4 times and was involuntarily committed twice. During this time, I became extremely codependent and felt like I was walking on eggshells never knowing what I might inadvertently say or do that might make him spiral out of control. And the thing was, he'd seem fine and everything would be loving and kind until it wasn't. It got worse after my daughter was born because of all the stress of a newborn and moving into a new house at the same time.

Oh, and his parents are very toxic. They hated me, they hated his ex-wife, they hated every woman he ever dated. They find reasons to hate everybody and hold massive grudges. They refused to even acknowledge they were getting a granddaughter while I was pregnant and barely acknowledge her now.

Edie posted 3/21/2019 17:59 PM

Thank you for your update Mel, it sounds as if it has all been extremely traumatising. I hope seeing it down there in black and white shows what a tough time you have had and now...you have been given an out where you can exit the relationship without any guilt that caretaker/ codependency might otherwise have fostered.

Now it is time to look after you. And your baby.


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