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The only thing I am able to tell you is that I am a stranger on the internet and I can’t claim I know your situation. All my feedback is based on what I am reading from you.

The things that you report him saying do not sound abusive. Maybe it’s that I can not hear his voice, or feel that tension, I do not walk in your shoes.

The more you say the more it read like he is dealing with a level of trauma that you don’t relate to. I believe you have said in the past that you don’t really value honesty, but you can provide it and will do so with him. I sort of think it’s similiar about his reaction to the cheating.

The issue when two people do not value the same things, or feel the same things are wrong, is that it effects the person who does feel impacted by it a lot more deeply than the other can understand. And then the person who can not relate to it can’t interpret a lot of the bs’s behaviors to be a trauma response.

I have been emotionally numb before, so I think i can relate to the relationship you are having with your remorse. I also know how having abuse and toxic shame in your developmental years can make certain triggers heightened. Like when he criticizes the house or how much you do laundry. So it’s not just annoying to you when he does it, it makes you feel as if he is saying you are worthless because it touches your trauma. And maybe he is, I don’t know him.

But I have read a lot from you now and I think that the reason this bothers you so much is that wounded part of you agrees with him and it be ones so painful it feels like abuse.

You defend your behaviors that are in my eyes extreme. I can see that it comes from deep pain you have experienced in the past and so when he says things to you it’s not just what it is in the moment it’s triggering a lot of deep trauma that makes you react in ways that might seem extreme in others.

The truth is the things you are doing are not going to make him see himself or the ways you perceive him to be. It shifts his focus to you not seeing his pain, and probably triggers a lot in him because in his life, you are the source of his most recent trauma. And so you antagonize each other.

It’s completely impossible for you guys to work through the big things if you can’t work through the smaller stuff.

One of you have to let go of the defensive, and you are the only one of you here that I can tell this to. What you wrote is clearly your coping mechanism and to most people it can only be interpreted as you have an extreme need to be validated, seen, understood, or be right. And again, I understand this is a deep rooted issue that you may not feel you can control. And so you justify it by turning it all around. There is a lot of fear controlling that.

I can only tell you from his standpoint, you cheated on him, this was deep trauma to him that you can’t connect with which concerns him deeply, and his reaction to it makes you feel deeply insecure in the relationship. And it also makes him feel deeply insecure because until he believes you connect with it he will continue to be antagonistic back.

And the truth is you can’t make him believe anything, even if you truly do connect with it. Even if you were the most perfect at every single thing need for reconciliation. It takes a prolonged period of time, most bs’s report needing 2-5 years to heal, and some longer. Some of that is for him to sort out, it’s only your job to heal you and if you want reconciliation to lead the way towards better communication and cooperation. You are obviously bright and capable and I think you can do that from your end if you can get some of your responses under control. You may need to learn to reframe a lot of his criticism as his problem not yours and I know you have a lot of work to do in order to tackle the way it touches you much more deeply.

But you do not have any control over whether he heals, or making him see you the way you want to be perceived when you are on the defense. You have no control over him at all. You can only control yourself and what you choose to do.

I don’t think you are intentionally doing anything to him, I think your defense mechanisms are likely long ingrained. In an abusive situation, I think you would actually fear him- you would fear recording him or labeling the clothes to prove something to him. This is your own driven need to be seen and understood, which we all have that, yours is simply much deeper and stronger because of your own trauma that I am very certain isn’t easy to heal or resolve.

Would he go to MC with you so that you could possibly gain some tools to try and navigate from this dynamic? If you could find a way together to maybe communicate differently so that you are feelings seen and understood, and you in turn are giving him the things he needs to not trigger his trauma response, things might be calmer to be able to make better progress.

I simply think you have some very specific defense mechanisms that keep the relationship polarized and makes it hard ti feel like you are on the same team. And I am sure you are reacting to similar things from him because it’s impossible for a bs a year out from infidelity to believe you love him and are on the same team. So essentially you two walk around all the time triggering each others trauma response of the deepest trauma of your life.

Unless you have more specific ways in which he is abusing you, I think you simply don’t trust him because of this dynamic and it’s emotionally exhausting to keep coming back to him and trying to be there for him when that little girl inside of you needs someone to show up for her. You have to figure out how to heal that little girl and I am sure you are working in that in therapy. Until you do, I don’t think you will find peace in a relationship that I believe you deeply want and need.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:54 PM, Friday, May 15th]

I ask you this with kindness (I am a WW too). Was having an A treating your husband with "basic decency"?

Thank you for asking with kindness. No, of course it wasn't. I have said on my other post that I have come to consider infidelity to be abuse as well, and on this one, that I have gone from seeing my husband as a pedestalized angel to a mutual abuser who's down in the muck with me. However, I believe we still love[noun, and sometimes verb ?] each other and want to be with one another. I am grateful that he gave me another chance -- multiple chances, actually-- for reconciliation, and I have owned up to what I did and ceased the infidelity pretty much immediately (no relapses so far, thank God, therapy, and this site. Took a while for me to realize that recollection and full disclosure of every prior incident was necessary too, but I did it.) So I am trying to give him multiple chances to own up to the manipulation tactics, and stop doing them. We need to get out of the muck, one way or another, with or without one another. I just really fucking hope it's "with."

But you cannot expect your husband to express himself in a way that is convenient for you or how you would express yourself. He could be saying the same about your copying mechanisms.

You wrote "IT COULD BE SO EASY". As waywards, we know that it's not really that easy, don't we? It wasn't easy for us to stop the A happening. This is not to push ourselves down, but to give you another perspective on what it may be going on right now (and hopefully for you to get out from this hellish loop).

Why not? I am actively trying to stop with the triggering coping mechanisms because I understand that they hurt him. It's that mutually reinforcing cycle rearing it's head again-- the more shit from him I'm getting, the more stressed out I am, and the harder its is to quit doing those things. I'm still trying, and I'm doing better... I don't expect him to be perfect right away if he does take ownership of the manipulation tactics and attempts to stop, either. I just need him to care enough to try. Pushing back on the resolution steps I'm asking him to take and a general unwillingness to admit to anything pushes me towards believing he's doing it on purpose, doesn't regret it, and doesn't want to stop. Maybe he believes that it's justified. I need to see evidence that's not the case... It does remind me of being stuck in the affair fog.

This is not to say you have to accept everything. But try to actively listening to what is happening around you. You may feel he is attacking you, but try to stop and think: is he really attacking me or is he hurting so bad that it's his pain talking? Is he really dismissing me or is he asking for help?

Do you think it would be a good idea to verbally ask him those questions in the moment, when he engages in the tactics?

Please read this post as kindly as you can because I'm aware of read in the wrong temperament, it could be triggering.

You need to look at this situation with cold, clinical honesty because the narrative you’re spinning is becoming a cage for both of you. I am not at all convinced that what you are labeling as "abuse" actually meets that definition. My reading of this is that, subconsciously, it has become easier for you to define your husband as an abuser because your ego simply cannot handle the weight of being the only moral inferior in the relationship. You clearly despise the fact that he holds the high ground, and as a result, you are dressing up the messy, jagged, and entirely predictable disputes of a traumatized marriage as "psychological warfare." Nothing you have referenced—from his shifting memory to his defensive tone—comes anywhere near the actual, calculated abuse you inflicted on him when you chose to betray him.

​To put this in perspective, your current logic sounds like a reformed wife-beater claiming his partner is "just as bad" as him because she promised to take the bins out but is now "gaslighting" him by claiming he agreed to do it. You are equating a catastrophic breach of life and soul with the mundane, frustrating friction of a couple who can no longer communicate. It appears you are searching for any evidence of his "toxicity" to balance the scales so you don't have to feel like the only villain in the room. If he’s "just as bad" as you, the shame becomes manageable. But that is a lie that will only lead to more resentment.

​Perhaps it is time to consider that you simply do not have the fortitude, the compassion, or the specific temperament required for reconciliation. This isn't meant to be nasty; it is a recognition of human limits. Most people do not have the emotional endurance to spend years absorbing a partner's trauma without lashing out or checking out. I know for a fact that I wouldn't have the qualities to pursue this path either. If you are already feeling "disgust" at the basic requirements of providing him safety, and if you are already "fresh out of spoons" for his pain, you are essentially admitting that you are done.

​If my assessment is correct, why are you prolonging the inevitable? You are both currently leading miserable, litigious lives where you record conversations and he reacts out of a shattered nervous system. If you truly believe he is an abuser, then you should not be tethered to him for another second. But you have already admitted to being his abuser first. Rather than staying and weaponizing "tactics" against one another in a race to the bottom, you should have the courage to free each other. If there is no longer a path to mutual grace, then the most merciful thing you can do is end the marriage so you can both find a life where you aren't constantly fighting to prove who is "less wrong

Notarunnerup

you are asking him to experience the same treatment (punishment) you are getting for your affair.

I'm not trying to punish him, ffs. I am trying to collect evidence of the truth. He doesn't have to say anything he doesn't want to on the recordings, or allow me to record, or listen to them at all. But it is awfully suspicious that he doesn't want to, and refuses to explain why he doesn't want to, isn't it?! What exactly is he afraid of hearing himself say, do you think?

If you cant trust HIM because of YOUR affair

Where tf are you getting THAT from?? I can't trust him because HE is employing ABUSIVE TACTICS. HIS ACTIONS are causing my distrust. He is well aware of my history of childhood trauma from that and he's still doing it to me. Prior to that behavior, I trusted him completely. Like I get it, you don't believe me and half of the population here thinks that BS can do no wrong, but you are so off track here it's not even funny.

how he is being short and not nice to you

.

Way to minimize what's actually going on. Imagine if I referred to my affair as being a bit "short and not nice to him?" I'd be eaten alive!

I empathize with you, I really do.

No, you very clearly do not.

And Drsoolers....
I am going to make this marriage work if it's the last thing I do, if only out of spite for you. Ta

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 4:05 AM, Saturday, May 16th]

Taking responsibility for your A is an important step, but to R, you need to take that awareness and change from betrayer to good partner. How have you changed?

Abuse by your BS is separate from your A. Among other very important things, abuse forces you to choose between accepting it now in the hope of improvement in the future and leaving now. But you don't control you H. Whether he stops or continues abuse is up to him. He - not you - will make that choice.

IOW, I'm a uncertain whether your focus is on attacking your H for abuse or on how you're going to respond to what he's doing. Or is working that out the reason for your recent threads?

I don't get the recordings. A recorded conversation is in the past. If you and he are in conflict, maybe and objective observer can listen toa recording and intervene effectively, but you're one of the disputants. You're not objective. Your H is very unlikely to get anything from reviewing recordings. You seem to be a sophisticated thinker. I'm surprised you expect that reviewing recordings without some sort of mediator will help.

I've been quietly watching, as a BS your posts scream insecure about leaving but also really don't want to be in this relationship.

You cheated. You could have done anything else but cheat. This is where you have led y'all. You come across as needing to be right and keeping score. Honestly, just leave. This is very obviously what you don't want but you don't want to change anything you just want him to change. You did this to him and don't like the new him, so leave.

Probably not the most helpful but seeing how you are so defensive and adamant about being right it's only fitting to tell you winning this recording argument won't win back your marriage.

Sissoon,

Taking responsibility for your A is an important step, but to R, you need to take that awareness and change from betrayer to good partner. How have you changed?

I dropped AP like a hot potato on DDay, reported any of his contact attempts to my BH immediately, and eventually blocked him when I felt confident enough that he wasn't going to blackmail me. My BH has all my passwords, and can view my location at any time through multiple means. I don't have anything to conceal. I stopped lying entirely or stretching the truth about anything, even when lying would be easier and save me a lot of trouble, or when the stretched truth would have been socially beneficial. I have started mentioning that I am married with children in conversations with every new male I interact with, and immediately ceasing interactions if I sense they are interested in me. I have been transparent with my BH and generally willing to do just about anything he wants or needs to help him feel [more] secure (except for on this recent trip, again, due to the hurt, resentment, and exhaustion I've been feeling. Even still, I'm away on this work trip and I'm right back on SurvivingInfidelity.) I have spent a huge amount of time trying to understand what BS feel after betrayal, including my own BS, in order to gain empathy and make it less likely for me to ever do that again (I won't say "certain," because I was certain I would never do that again the last time I did it, went 5 years without doing it, and then I did it again.) I have made myself available to listen to his feelings whenever he decides to express them, and been actively curious about them. I'm going to IC, trying to figure out how to give myself the things I was lusting after in my affair, trying to work through some of my trauma, trying to become a more functional person, and trying to eliminate the coping mechanisms that trigger my BH... I'm trying.

But you don't control you H. Whether he stops or continues abuse is up to him. He - not you - will make that choice.

I understand. But surely some of my actions will either encourage/allow it to continue, assisthim with stopping/lessening the behavior to a tolerable level, or prevent it entirely (such as leaving, but that's an absolute last resort.) Right ? I'm trying to sort out which of my actions will be most likely to result in each outcome, though I acknowledge I can't be certain.

IOW, I'm a uncertain whether your focus is on attacking your H for abuse or on how you're going to respond to what he's doing.

The latter.

I don't get the recordings. A recorded conversation is in the past. If you and he are in conflict, maybe and objective observer can listen toa recording and intervene effectively, but you're one of the disputants. You're not objective. Your H is very unlikely to get anything from reviewing recordings. You seem to be a sophisticated thinker. I'm surprised you expect that reviewing recordings without some sort of mediator will help.

If we have a recording, we can listen to the interaction again. We don't need to rely on memory-- more specifically on memories that were formed during a period of conflict and heightened emotions. When you can play a conversation back, there can be no arguments about what, or whether something, was actually said, even if there is disagreement about things like perception of tone, the definition or connotation of certain words, or the intention with which they were said. And sometimes listening to it again after the heightened emotions have quieted can cause one's perceptions to differ, change, or clarify. Sometimes you catch things you didn't the first time, or you realize you could have phrased something better, or that you overreacted in the moment... It would be useful to me so that I can reference specific clips and explain what I meant or intended, what seems to be happening in that moment (including manipulative tactics,) how it makes me feel, and how I would have preferred the conversation to go instead. I can also ask him for clarification or to explain what he was feeling in that moment and his preferences. This what I tend to do with conversations held through text messaging, so I think that recorded conversations could be analyzed or referenced much in the same way.

I would very much like to utilize a MC again, but he has been so defensive lately that I don't even think it would help. In the past he's felt attacked by MC of ours, even when I felt like they were being very neutral and fair to both of us. Additionally, the last time I mentioned I wanted to go, I was waiting for him to schedule it, as his schedule is much fuller and less flexible than mine, and I had found it frustrating to go back and forth between the MC and him to try and find a time that worked for all of us last time, which resulted in us ending up not going anymore at all. As far as I know, he has not made any attempts at scheduling any MC.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 11:23 PM, Saturday, May 16th]

Hey there GTM,

I want to point out that your remorse doesn't hinge on what your BS is doing/ not doing. It doesn't sound like to me (having read through some of your posts) that you have actually gotten there just yet ... like really owning this and getting it.

whether he consciously recognizes he's doing it or not. It didn't used to be like that.

Yeah, no shit things changed.

I have had many folks here in the past agree and disagree (loudly) with the fact that reactive abuse is just different. I firmly believe there is some things that we just have to take in the wake of their traumatize-self trying to regain, well, everything. If R is what you desire, you have to buckle in.

You are asking a man who is a victim of your extreme abuse to engage in this disfunction like his coping mechs are top tier. No one is prepared for this level of betrayal. From what I can gather you are just at a year past dday? I didn't catch how you handled the fallout ... however, from my experience, we don't exactly handle dday with the care it deserves. His nervous system is still in fight-or-flight, EVEN a year out. If you are focused on how he is hurting rather than why he is hurting, you are missing the point entirely. You cannot stab someone in the back and then complain they are bleeding all over the carpet. He is reacting to being psychologically broken. Because he has stayed he sees you as both a safe place and danger at the same time. He goes back to the you before you ripped his heart out and the "disgusting" version of you that fucked him over entirely.

Be kind to him if his memory is less than accurate. Trauma brain will do that to a person.

The chaotic, angry, or desperate behavior you are seeing from you BH isn't "abuse" it is a trauma response to your actions. Does it feel abusive ... probably. Do people see it as abusive, I'm sure. I could never take the latter stance. Where is your empathy for him? Critiquing the reaction to betrayal is just a convenient way to avoid accountability.

Now, I'm not saying this can last forever, and if it gets worse or more intense, he will need professional help, he probably needs it now. But a year is just a drop in the bucket of surviving infidelity. Have you seen the timeline? Has anyone mentioned it to you yet? It's 5-7 YEARS. girl ... Are you ready for that? Do you have the compassion, the patience, the wherewithal to weather this storm? Betrayal is brutal. The aftermath is even more so.

I want to bring this back around to remorse. good gawd the fact that you asked if there was someone else ... laughing was the kindest thing he could have done. Look I get it, I understand why you even went there. When we are still operating from the same place that allowed us to cheat, we can absolutely bring our BSs into the mud with us. But, that was incredibly insensitive on your end and I don't think you get it, at all.

I can't understand why this is even happening.

Really? Nothing crosses your mind? ... nothing at all? He just changed out of the blue?

Here's the thing. The first year for him, it's all about recalibrating. Nothing is as it was. Nothing. The things our BSs have to endure is enough to ... well make them go crazy. I can't expect you to understand, but I encourage you to try. But it sounds like you want your R to be wrapped in a nice, neat package. If that is what you are truly looking for and your "spoons" are done, for his sake, call it quits. You will only cause more damage. That would be the kindest thing you could do.

The second year, oh, they find their anger. If you are already buckling because he is hurting out loud, I don't think you are prepared for what this next year brings.

It's giving, I said I was sorry, now you have to be nice to me

It doesn't work like that. Have you asked him how you can help him feel safe? How you can help him at all?

Your waning reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of what remorse actually is. Remorse isn't a transaction. If your remorse is waning because your BH is struggling to process the trauma of your betrayal, you are still centering yourself in this story, aka being selfish. You sound like a victim here. Are you?

Remorse means standing in the fire of the damage you created. It means accepting his ugly, his pain, his despair. AND instead of thinking "well, now I don't feel bad anymore" a remorseful person thinks "look how deeply I hurt the person I love, how can I hold space for his pain?"

You can't hurt someone then dictate the terms of how they grieve it.

I think many of you are misunderstanding. It wasn't like things were fine -> then I cheated -> then he started engaging in these tactics.

It could possibly be that he was engaging in these tactics from the beginning of our relationship, and I just didn't realize it. He always was really slippery when we argued, and as I mentioned, I think much of the time we never really had resolution because he disarmed me by providing comfort when I needed it, such that I didn't press the issues anymore and they were rug swept.

If it hasn't always been happening, or it's just gotten significantly worse/more noticeable recently, then that shift happened not immediately following DDday, but after disclosure, the fallout, the inquisition phase, the hysterical bonding, my crippling shame phase, mutual depression, some anger spells from him (which I handled just fine. Yelling, name calling, other expressions of anger specifically related to the infidelity-- that's understandable and tolerable to me. twisting reality in a way that destabilizes my trust in my own perceptions and denying me the opportunity to communicate through important, non-infidelity-related issues is neither understandable, tolerable, nor acceptable), vulnerability about his feelings (handled this just fine as well), and "the burial," despite my attempts to get him to share his feelings again.

My infidelity does not make this okay. If you rationalize that I should just put up with it because my abuse was worse or I committed mine first, then you could also rationalize me being abusive again in response. You could rationalize a BS physically or sexually abusing their WS with that logic. But that's not what a healthy, healing relationship where two people love[noun and verb] each other and aim to behave morally looks like, is it? Or at least, that's not the kind of relationship I want, and may that kind of "love'[general] never find me nor any of you.

As I've mentioned, because I committed infidelity first and he gave me multiple chances to come correct and reconcile, I'm giving him multiple chances to do the same. I am treating the abusive behavior separately from mine, like sisoon said. I do not appreciate those who are minimizing it. I bet if it was happening to you, you'd feel a lot differently. It may have happened to some of you when your BS cheated, lied to you, made you out to be crazy for being suspicious or calling out their behavior, denying it or shifting blame for it when you present them with evidence, minimizing the extent or "badness" of what they did and denying you the opportunity to express your feelings or ask questions about it... I've seen many examples of such abuse committed by WS during/following their infidelity. Perhaps you can consider that BS can do the same thing without having cheated first, and their pain doesn't justify the behavior.

Or maybe you refuse to consider it, because you're too deep in your own pain to do so. It's okay if you are, but I do ask that you exit this thread if that's the case.

And I am not giving up on doing the things I need to do to help him heal. I just need a break, I think, because I am emotionally exhausted. I wish very much that the exhaustion wasn't coming at such a critical time, but the timing is not really under my control.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 12:58 AM, Sunday, May 17th]

I think many of you are misunderstanding.

I think many are reacting to what you're typing.

If my wife started recording conversations and played them back in my face while I'm going through this shit-show horror of a nightmare, at a year out, which is where we are, then I'd be out the door.

That said, if you're being abused then you should absolutely get out. If there's mutual abuse, then for both of your sakes you should both get out. If it's his reaction to the pain of your betrayal, and you can't handle it, then you should do both of you a favor and get out.

Or maybe you could put together a power point presentation to go along with your recordings and bring it all to your next MC session so you can carefully and articulately explain all the ways he's "doing it wrong." You might even succeed in making him look like the villain in this case. Then you can declare victory and be "right" at all costs.

Or maybe you refuse to consider it, because you're too deep in your own pain to do so. It's okay if you are, but I do ask that you exit this thread if that's the case.

I will do just that. This will be my singular reply. I just can't believe what I've been reading here and there's no stop sign so I'm putting my 2 cents in before exiting this thread permanently.

Raven is right. "Winning" this battle by using recordings of your conversations might score you some points on your personal scoreboard, but it will not win you back your marriage. It will only make it worse.

I am willing to consider that you're truly being abused. It does happen, but it's usually pretty obvious. As it is you've made some vague accusations without much in the way of any examples. If it's been happening throughout your entire marriage it seems a bit convenient that you only noticed it after you cheated on your husband and threw him into this emotional meat grinder.

If it truly is the case that you are indeed, and have been experiencing abuse your entire marriage, then, as I said, you should really get yourself out of this situation. However, based on what you've been typing, it comes across to more than a couple of us, waywards and betrayed alike, as you needing to be right more than anything, and it appears that way because of the way you're communicating it. You say you're exhausted, but you come across more as exhausting, and in such a tenuous situation that's only going to make matters worse.

No one here is rationalizing physical or sexual abuse, so let's leave extreme hypotheticals out of this (and it's very wayward of you to go there). What people are pointing out is that you cannot decouple his current behavior from the psychological trauma of your infidelity.

You mentioned both "it wasn't always like this" and "he's always been slippery"

Let's say he's ALWAYS been this way

Pre-a issues, like him being "slippery" in arguments or your history of rug sweeping it, are standard relationship dysfunctions. They are frustrating, but they happen in a shared reality. Infidelity, however, is a nuclear bomb. It introduces a completely different monster, trauma.

Right now, you are trying to litigate pre-a communication styles while your husband is actively suffering from trauma. You cannot fix a pre-existing communication issue when the baseline of safety has been completely obliterated. The pre-a issues simply aren't relevant right now because the marriage you had before no longer exists. You have to heal the trauma first before you can ever hope to address the old M issues.

By bringing up his past arguing style now, you are trying to retroactively justify your current impatience with his healing. The pre-a issues are simply not relevant today, because you cannot expect someone to work on "healthy communication" when their fundamental sense of reality and safety has been shattered.

And everyone needs IC before MC

speaking of ... Putting the responsibility of scheduling MC onto him is an easy out for you. You know his schedule, make the appointment. He either goes or he doesn’t, and the appointment gets canceled. What this does, however, is shows initiative. It proves to a traumatized BH that you are willing to carry the heavy lifting of logistics, and that you are actively fighting for the marriage rather than waiting for him to do the emotional labor of fixing a problem you created. By making it his job to schedule the counseling, you are essentially forcing the victim to coordinate his own rescue mission.

Now, let's say he WASN'T always like this

In your post, you mentioned that your remorse is waning because you now see your husband as a "mutual abuser down in the dust" with you. You also mentioned feeling disgust and resentment at the idea of having to check in from your hotel room because you just want to zone out.

What you are describing isn't you uncovering a hidden abuser; you are still operating with a wayward mindset who is tired of trying to pretend like you have remorse.

Reconciliation is exhausting, and you have run out of spoons. But instead of admitting that you are tired, you are demonizing his trauma responses so you can justify giving up. You are recording him and labeling his shifting memory as "manipulation" but trauma literally breaks the brain's ability to process and recall events. He is hyper-vigilant and "slippery" because his reality was shattered.

If you need a break because you are exhausted, take one. But do not rewrite his trauma as systemic abuse just to shield yourself from the agonizing reality of what your betrayal did to his mental health.

A word of caution.

You may be misinterpreting this shift as him becoming abusive, but what you are actually witnessing is the year 2 wall. Your BH's nervous system was operating on pure shock and adrenaline. He was trying to survive the nuclear blast. But around the 6 to 12 month mark, the shock wears off and the brutal reality drops. RAGE absolute rage enters, he could also shut down completely because the weight is just too much, or a whole slew coping mechs can surface that may not please you. His body is going to try and survive like his life depends on it. I don't think you are actually ready for or fully understand what could be in store for you. Year 2 is often messy, volatile, and looks like massive regression, but it is actually his brain finally letting down its guard to feel the true depth of reality. It's very unfortunate that you have grown tired right when he is going to need your "remorse" the most.

...generally willing to do just about anything he wants or needs to help him feel [more] secure (except for on this recent trip, again, due to the hurt, resentment, and exhaustion I've been feeling.

You're focusing on him. I think you need to focus on yourself.

After d-day. I didn't want to be catered to. I wanted to find out if the 2 of us could achieve our desired levels of authenticity and at the same time, have a marriage that we both loved. I especially didn't want my W to try to read my mind. One person can't read another's mind, and as my W talked about her perceptions of me in MC sessions, it became clear that she had a really fucked up view of what I thought.

Where are YOU in this? What do YOU want, not just now but also in the future? Have you talked about your wants with your H? How has he responded? What are your thoughts and feelings about his response? If you haven't talked about your wants, what's keeping you from doing so?

What's similar and what's different about this latest betrayal and previous betrayals, of yourself and of others? You somehow gave yourself permission to cheat. What do you need to do to withdraw that permission?

twisting reality in a way that destabilizes my trust in my own perceptions and denying me the opportunity to communicate through important, non-infidelity-related issues is neither understandable, tolerable, nor acceptable

This, to me, presents you with a stark choice - accept the gaslighting, build towards an ultimatum (stop gaslighting or D), or just leave. Complaining about it seems like the worst of all worlds.

IMO, you really need to do an inventory of yourself and your M. If your H has gaslighted you for years, that's a giant problem, and you're dooming yourself to a lot of pain if he doesn't change. But he won't change unless you can get him to understand, if that's possible.

I read a lot of judgment in your posts. You hold on to your perceptions and push away the perceptions of others. You'd do yourself a favor if you took the feedback you receive as useful POVs.

And I think a good IC can help you a lot. You've got a lot to sort out, and that's very difficult work.

*****

You have missed my point about the recordings. I get the potential benefit. I can see how the record of an interaction can help you, if you listen to it and learn from it.

My point, however, is that YOU can't be the moderator of any discussion of the interactions. Your H doesn't trust you. You don't trust your H. The recordings are useless to you as a couple without the leadership of a neutral observer that you both trust. Right now, that seems impossible, since your H refuses MC.

Pogre,

I think many are reacting to what you're typing.

\

When someone replies a certain way, summarizing what you said incorrectly or talking about things that specifically do not apply to your situation, it becomes clear that they have misread/misunderstood you. That can either be because they weren't paying close attention for various reasons, or because you didn't explain yourself clearly... I know I use a lot of words and sometimes my writing can be verbose, but I do very carefully choose the words I use according to the nuance and connotation I intend to convey, and I have been working on being more concise.

What I am asking from the other participants in this conversation is to either put aside their own personal biases and pain, pay close attention, and actually hear what it is that I'm saying about my own situation, and trust that I am reporting on it with a degree of honesty... or not participate. I would really hate for others to be using their time to reply to me when they have a fundamentally incorrect/incomplete understanding of my situation, and then when I try to correct that understanding, accuse me of being defensive... It is wasteful, and I think it serves to reinforce the biases that they and others already have ("All WS are defensive and need a reality check, as obviously I am a more objective observer of their own situation than they are, and here is further evidence of it. I'm going to double down on my initial response" instead of "Oh, I misunderstood. Let me update my understanding and adjust my approach to the conversation based on the accurate information I'm taking in.")

And before you go saying "You just want us to agree with you!" because I know this website and this group of people and it's 100% prone to saying shit like that...No. No, I do not. I welcome feedback from people whose responses indicate that they understand what I wrote. And quite honestly that's one of the kinds of manipulative tactics my BH has been engaging in. Here is the relevant bits of what google Gemini says about that:

The "you just want me to agree with you" tactic is a conversational manipulation often used to shut down valid criticism, invalidate your perspective, or deflect from the actual issue. By framing your boundary or differing opinion as an unreasonable demand for blind agreement, the manipulator avoids accountability.

Here is a quick breakdown of how this tactic works and how you can respond:

Why They Use It

-Deflection: It shifts the focus away from their questionable behavior or mistake and puts the spotlight on your "unreasonable" demands.

-Invalidation: It dismisses your feelings or facts as mere "disagreements" rather than legitimate concerns.

-Guilt-Tripping: It attempts to make you feel like the bad guy for causing conflict or holding them to a standard.

How to Respond:

-Separate Agreement from Understanding: Make it clear that you are not asking them to agree, but rather to respect your boundaries or understand your perspective.

-Refocus on the Facts: Do not get sidetracked by their accusation. Steer the conversation back to the original topic.

I know we're getting super meta here, but I want you to understand what it is I'm telling you and believe me, and go from there. There is zero point in continuing this conversation if you have decided in advance to disbelieve and disregard everything I'm saying. Conversations are two way streets.

If my wife started recording conversations and played them back in my face while I'm going through this shit-show horror of a nightmare, at a year out, which is where we are, then I'd be out the door.

I would absolutely hope that you weren't engaging in the kind of abusive tactics that would make your wife feel the need to record your conversations to preserve her sense of reality. That's what you're failing to grasp: because my husband is engaging in these tactics where reality is being distorted, I want to record our interactions. I didn't just randomly decide we needed this.

As I said before, the recording itself is objective. Nothing that hasn't been said is going to be recorded. Everything that has been said will. If for some reason you don't want your partner to be able to accurately recall what it is that was, in fact, said, or you don't want to hear what it was that you, in fact, said... You should absolutely reflect on why that is. (Again, my husband is refusing to reflect on why he doesn't want the recordings, and I find that incredibly suspicious.) I also find it suspicious that you would depict it as "playing them [your own words] back in [your] face," which has the connotation of victimizing you, rather than something more neutral like "using an accurate reference to what was said" or simply "playing back the conversations" to set the record straight on what was said if you two don't agree on it, or to offer you the chance to elaborate or clarify your meaning/intentions... Would you like to elaborate on why you chose that phrasing?

It's the exact same response that unrepentant WS give when they don't want to give their BS their passwords or locations or answer questions as to where they were or what they were doing... If they're not doing anything that they want to keep secret from their BS, then why push back against the transparency? If you're not engaging in manipulative or abusive tactics, and you stand ten toes down on what it is you said in that conversation, then why the pushback against taking and playing back the recordings? If there was nothing nefarious happening on your part, surely you would welcome the chance to reassure your spouse of that, right?

Or perhaps it's that you know what you're saying is abusive and you want to justify doing it with the same garbage rationalizations that have been given here: If you were abused first, it's fine to abuse your partner back. Because you are in pain and traumatized at the hands of your WS, it's fine to cause your partner pain and traumatize them back. {while also claiming to be morally superior to them because you deny that your behavior is abusive/minimize or compare the severity of the abuse}

Make it make sense. Because, like I said before, that same logic can be used to justify physical or sexual abuse against your WS. Just substitute out psychological abuse for the other kinds:

"I'm hitting her because she betrayed me and hurt me first. She doesn't get to object to it because this is just how I'm grieving, and she ought to just be grateful I'm still here and giving her a chance at reconciliation! If she thinks I'm abusing her, it's clearly her just trying to make herself feel better about the abuse she committed against me by painting me out to be on her level! I'm not going to stop hitting her, and if she thinks it's abuse, she can leave!"

"She owes me sex, and whatever kind of rough or kinky sex I want, whenever I want it, because she was perfectly willing to go behind my back and give that to her AP. She doesn't get to define how I express my anger or work through the trauma she caused me. I don't care if she was sexually abused as a child and now the ability to give enthusiastic consent is of paramount importance to her--if she was reconciliation material, she would be willing to do it. And if she wants to go get a rape kit done to prove this is sexual abuse, I'll just walk right out the door on her!"

That's what some of you sound like right now.

That said, if you're being abused then you should absolutely get out. If there's mutual abuse, then for both of your sakes you should both get out.

Did you leave your wife for her infidelity, or did you give her a chance to reconcile on the condition that it stopped? Why did you stay? Because you love her and want to be together? I believe that's why my BH stayed, and I'm doing the same for him for the same reasons. If I can get him to see what he's doing and the pain he is causing me, and he agrees to stop, makes progress towards stopping... Then our marriage has a good chance of survival and healing. I will not leave unless that's no longer a likely possibility.

If it's his reaction to the pain of your betrayal, and you can't handle it, then you should do both of you a favor and get out.

Yup, there it is again.

I will likely need to make a digital document or powerpoint in order to play the pertinent parts back at all, and to keep my examples and questions organized when I go to talk to him about it. Again, if he is willing to go to MC, he needs to be the one to schedule it. So far he has not done that, so I am assuming he is unwilling to go. Again, this is not about being "right--" it's about getting to the truth. Insisting that's what I care about when I have given several specific examples to support that it's not about being right is a manipulative tactic, which I described earlier in this post. This about the truth of the matter, whether it's me who's remembering things incorrectly, or him, or both of us. This is about being able to analyze our conversations to see what could be better--on BOTH of our behalves, as I described earlier but which you conveniently ignored-- gain clarity, talk about what I see happening, and work through our issues. I'm not coming at this with some sort of vicious glee about proving him "wrong." I'm bringing objective recordings to the table to provide a stabilized version of reality that can't be argued about, so we can focus on communicating better and coming back together in a healthy way. You are biased in a way that makes you see me as the villain who is twisting reality here, instead of considering the possibility that I have every intention of approaching this with humility and a willingness to listen equal to my desire to be heard.

I just think that you subconsciously believe I do not deserve to be heard because you are dealing with your own pain. I will remind you: you do not have to be here in Wayward Side. Maybe you think you're doing me or, indirectly, my BH some kind of favor by responding, and maybe that makes you feel like you're doing something when you feel powerless, or maybe it makes you feel good about yourself, or maybe it feels cathartic... whatever reason it may be. But I assure you, you are not helping in the slightest and you are wasting your own time by responding with your disbelief, minimization, and justification of abuse.

I am willing to consider that you're truly being abused. It does happen, but it's usually pretty obvious. As it is you've made some vague accusations without much in the way of any examples. If it's been happening throughout your entire marriage it seems a bit convenient that you only noticed it after you cheated on your husband and threw him into this emotional meat grinder.

The thing about successful manipulation and psychological abuse is that it's sneaky. If the victim noticed it right away, s/he is more likely to leave, and then the abuser loses the power over him/her. I have given very specific examples of many of the manipulation tactics, and you can go back in the thread and find them if you care at all about being objective. That's the neat thing about textual conversations: you can't distort them. You can't tell me I didn't give examples because we can all go back and read them. I have also elaborated on some signs early in the marriage that may have originally flown under my radar. You, as a BS, should understand that when your abuser is also your spouse and your main source of comfort and support, there's a huge opportunity for rug sweeping and further abuse. If we were arguing and he was engaging in manipulative tactics in the beginning of our relationship, it wasn't okay then either. It's possible that he hurt me during those arguments, and then because we human beings prefer comfort to pain, I ignored the tactics in order to accept the comfort I was craving. But I wouldn't be able to say for sure because I don't have recordings of those interactions to review and I don't trust my recollection of them one way or the other.

However, based on what you've been typing, it comes across to more than a couple of us, waywards and betrayed alike, as you needing to be right more than anything,

I would like to point out that the "waywards" that perceive me as needing to be correct are actually mad hatters, which is likely influencing their perception. The actual WS have listened better and given more balanced advice-- not necessarily agreement-- and it has been helpful. Your appeal to the majority is fallacious.

it appears that way because of the way you're communicating it

I am quite certain that it appears that way to you because your pain biases you, and it's causing you to suck at listening. But sure, blame it on me. I hope it makes you feel righteous.

I put my finger on it.

Humility. You severely lack humility. The proof is in your most recent response.

I would like to point out that the "waywards" that perceive me as needing to be correct are actually mad hatters, which is likely influencing their perception. The actual WS have listened better and given more balanced advice-- not necessarily agreement-- and it has been helpful. Your appeal to the majority is fallacious.

It's ironic you label others as self righteous. You must be exhausted, I hope for your spouses sake you get the answer you are looking for.

Wow, you really struggle with the idea that you, a self-admitted abuser, could possibly be the "bad guy" in this narrative. It’s fascinating to watch you litigate the "truth" while ignoring the foundational reality of your situation.

​If someone comes up to you on the street and punches you in the face, you absolutely shouldn't punch them back for a myriad of reasons—escalation, legal ramifications, and so on. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but after someone punches someone, they kind of have to expect a punch back. You abused your husband. If he’s being "abusive" back by having a different recollection of a conversation or being short with you, it doesn't make it okay, but what exactly were you expecting? He isn't sexually assaulting you or beating you; he simply disagrees with your interpretation of conversations—an interpretation, I might add, that nearly everyone who has interacted with you virtually disagrees with as well.

​Consider the third law of thermodynamics—or rather, Newton’s third law: every action has an equal and opposite reaction. What you did to your husband was monstrous. You have to expect that you could have created, at least for a moment, a monster. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. Divorce is always open to you, and I would actually argue it is the optimal path here.
​By the way, regarding the quote you find so "abusive"—the idea that a BS might require sexual equality to the level the AP received as a term of reconciliation: I fully agree with that stance. You are trying to caricature it as abuse, but it isn't. Many betrayed spouses could rightfully require that the person who supposedly loves them doesn't reserve their best, most adventurous self for a stranger while offering the "safe, boring" version to the spouse. The wayward has every right to agree or disagree with that term, but it isn't an abusive demand—it’s an attempt to reclaim the intimacy you stole and gave away for free.

​You keep talking about "objective recordings" and "stabilized versions of reality" as if a marriage is a laboratory experiment. You are planning to make a PowerPoint presentation to play back his "manipulation" to him? That isn't humility, and it isn't a desire to be heard; it is an attempt to dominate. You are trying to use technology to strip him of his perspective because you cannot handle a reality where he is allowed to be angry, confused, or inconsistent. Ay least one of you is being abused in this relationship, perhaps two but the evidence at least points to one.

​The fact remains: the "sneaky" psychological abuse you claim happened early in the marriage is a very convenient discovery to make only after you were caught cheating. It’s the ultimate "get out of jail free" card. If the truth is so important to you, start with this one: you destroyed his world, and now you’re upset that the debris is hitting you. If you really think he’s this calculated, sneaky monster, do him a favor and get out. Stop recording him, stop tagging the laundry, and just leave. But we both know why you won't. You need him there to witness your "reformation" so you can feel like a good person again. It honestly reads as if you aren't staying for him; but staying for your ego.

I concur with drsoolers.

I don’t think you are in the same room as remorse let alone the same building.

I think you would miss the point these kind people are trying to make even if it was stapled to your forehead.

[This message edited by Notarunnerup at 10:46 PM, Sunday, May 17th]

Sisoon,

After d-day. I didn't want to be catered to. I wanted to find out if the 2 of us could achieve our desired levels of authenticity and at the same time, have a marriage that we both loved. I especially didn't want my W to try to read my mind. One person can't read another's mind, and as my W talked about her perceptions of me in MC sessions, it became clear that she had a really fucked up view of what I thought.

This is insightful. Though, I don't know how to get an accurate handle on what his thoughts are without focusing on him? Or maybe that's the point you're trying to make, that I should stop trying to do that until he volunteers his thoughts?

Where are YOU in this? What do YOU want, not just now but also in the future? Have you talked about your wants with your H? How has he responded? What are your thoughts and feelings about his response? If you haven't talked about your wants, what's keeping you from doing so?

I was journalling yesterday about the authentic me and trying to separate out my actual traits, the traits I perceive myself to have, the traits I think other people perceive me to have, and the traits that I tend to want them to perceive me to have. It was... Complicated, and I definitely think it will be the subject of my next IC session. It's definitely a kind of insecurity that I'd like to work on.

I want to be loved and respected. I want to feel like my concerns and fears and emotional needs matter to him, and to be reassured. I want him to be interested in my life and to feel safe with him. I've tried to convey to my husband what that would look like from my perspective. I don't know if he just doesn't get it, or he's too hurt or stuck in defensive mode to even receive that message. He's brushed off my bids for more or particular kinds of affection as jokes, or with an, "Oh please, that's ridiculous," sort of response, which is the same response I got when I was asking for these things prior to and during the affair. He acts offended or defensive when I bring up the manipulation tactics I'm seeing and what kind of responses I was looking for instead, in such moments. It makes me feel stuck and unloved. It hurts.

And of course, I think that translates to "I'm fundamentally unloveable" in my brain. In the past, feeling like this meant I needed to detach before I could be abandoned, and immediately find someone else who would make me feel lovable. That's been the primary underlying mechanism for most of my instances of infidelity, mixed in with some people pleasing and feeling like I needed to do whatever it took to get ahead and be perfect/the best. All lovely souvenirs from my FOO, of course. More things to fix in therapy... I think just being conscious of these things, having preventive plans in place, and of course the horribleness of the shame I felt and BH's devastation from the infidelity should be enough to keep that permission withdrawn. I have a massive fear of "slipping up" again, so it's hard to imagine "giving myself permission" another time--though I know each voice in my head is all part of the same brain, if that makes sense? More thoughts to try to sort out.

build towards an ultimatum (stop gaslighting or D), or just leave.

That's the plan for now: if I can't get him to work on stopping the gaslighting, I'll need to leave eventually. It might kill me though. At least if we're together I can summon some hope that we will have a happy and loving marriage again someday. If I leave, that hope is shattered. I tried to detach once. I didn't last a day before caving back into comfort from and sex with him.

With regard to the recordings, the goal is to evaluate what's going on together. I want to show up with doves and olive branches, so to speak, to let him know that my intention isn't to come in and prosecute him, but rather to listen and be heard... Though the last conversation where I tried to do that was the one that I recorded, and that's full of defensiveness and tactics in and of itself. That's why I was trying so hard to figure out what's going on in his head, and what changed. Maybe it will just take him a while to come around on his own

Drsoolers,

Wow, you really struggle with the idea that you, a self-admitted abuser, could possibly be the "bad guy" in this narrative.

You've contradicted yourself in the very first sentence, and I don't feel the need to read any further if you can't see that.

GotTheMorbs, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of mad-hatters. IMO, these members often have a much deeper understanding of infidelity, its consequences, and reconciliation than the rest of us.

Raven25 & Notarunnerup, I know and understand how difficult it can be to read in the Wayward forum as a BS so early out from d-day. I've been there and done that, many years ago. In fact, I was once banned from this forum, for good reasons. Neither of your comments are particularly helpful.

DRSOOLERS, your clearly stated opposition to reconciliation and unmistakable contempt for wayward spouses lead me to suspect that your only motivation for posting in the Wayward forum is a form of vicarious vengeance.

Unhinged,

I'm not generalizing mad hatters. I actually very much appreciate their insight most of the time. Pogre called them 'waywards' and was using that as a sort of "See, even they're seeing the same thing that I am" argument. This is fallacious because a) they're not just waywards. They're people who have also been deeply affected by infidelity, and b) it appears to me that pain is causing bias here. I would even say c, to offer a counter both of us: there have been BS who have offered more balanced and actually helpful advice as well. This reaffirms for me my decision to go stop-sign-less while asking for those individuals who are feeling reactive to this post, who may be struggling to view others' situation through anything but a lens of their own pain, to kindly step out

But I appreciate your response, and the responses of the others who have been helpful. I needed some direction, and I think I have enough to homework to work on now, thanks to you guys.