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Incredible how many just found out I have to write.

But this time will not be the life story.

So... I just found out. 1 Adultery and 1, likely 2 other betrayals.

This sets the score to at least 12, maybe 13 cheatings from her.

The one in the absolute light:
I found out not even a full year into our relationship, she was in Germany, having sex with a German guy, while she was supposedly crazy in love with me, since it was fresh.

Is one of the many I found and confronted her just few weeks ago, she denied it all, she swore she never met this guy (a bartneder) and nothing ever happened.

Then I find an e-mail to her friend telling how with this guy is "over, over, and once again so over".

She lied to me, denying it even while we are following therapy and she is swearing to change.

The beauty is that the pain I felt right now is as intense as always:
That sharp stab in your gut, intense, souls crushing.

However, I think I am good, because I felt it fully, very intense, I grieved, cried, and felt immediately light.

I can integrate betrayal emotions, they do not scare me anymore.

This does not change the fact that now is the Betrayed Husband who is "over, over, and sooo over".

I will "have fun" when she comes back tonight.

Let's see how many more, I am making a collection.
I married a serial cheater.

I’m saddened to read this. I hope you are ending this relationship/marriage soon.

You deserve better.

I hate this for you. I really, really do man. TFW is right. You deserve so much better.

Thank you guys.

Since I got this gift I left one for her too:
I recorded my cry of grief and pain while it was happening, it short, but since she thinks I feel no emotions she will keep that as a reminder.

Not out of pity, I actually do not give a fuck, but maybe she can see what human emotions look like and what she was so nice to gift me.

Perhaps one day she will remember why there is consequences to what you do and choose.

Isn't it funny that the pain of a new DDay is still as strong as the first one?

But the thing that surprises me is how fast it goes away now, I find it funny in a dark, ironical way.
I actually feel lighter because I knew already and I found out the evidence.

And there is some bitter satisfaction in finding out that she is still lying and giving trickle truths.

One thing for sure, I saved all this stuff.
If I walk away my daughter needs to know why daddy had to leave.
It was because mommy could not decide if she wanted daddy or just any penis she ever met would do.

This is from how many years ago?

And there is still an electronic trail?

This is from how many years ago?

And there is still an electronic trail?

2006, we were not even 1 year together

Believe it or not, it does not matter how old, the pain is full like it happened now.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 8:50 PM, Thursday, February 12th]

I’m sorry to say you are expecting understanding from someone who doesn’t have the capacity or the willingness to care about anyone other than herself.

When she comes crawling back again and again and you re-start the relationship, she knows (and expects) there are no consequences or fall out from you.

You need to build an impenetrable wall around yourself and really have no contact.

Such a kick in the gut. But at this point I wonder if your tears are as much about the waste of your years it confirms.

I would not say to your daughter the words you wrote here, however. She does not need to be dragged down to the level of a daughter of such a ....

I'm so sorry, my friend. You need a divorce. Stop putting up with this, put an end to this. Some people, for whatever reason, are simply not monogamous. They're not marriage material. If only they wouldn't lie about this. But they want both - they want the security and peace of marriage, and the excitement and centrality of affairs and the price of that is constant deceit. Unless someone is honest enough to say, I'm just not monogamous. Frankly, that is how I would view your wife - she's never going to be what your heart and soul need. I wouldn't even bother arguing with her, this is what she's like. Work out the divorce, set yourself free and heal. You can have something much better in the future that will work for you. She's always gonna be a fail.

I understand how hurt and angry you are and I'm sure you would not say that to your daughter. I don't know how old she is but age appropriate - Mom and Dad just don't see marriage in the same way and we can't make it work together. We just want different things. It's one of those things you can only really understand when you're older. I think that would be the essential truth but said in as least hurtful way as possible. She'll probably figure her mother out eventually anyway. If she's old enough to understand you might say something like, I want to only be with one person, Mom needs to be with different people at different times. We're just not the same and we don't want the same things. Your wife might try to deny this, probably for appearances, but....this is the truth for each of you. You're monogamous and she's not.

Believe it or not, it does not matter how old, the pain is full like it happened now.

It's not just the new pain for an older betrayal; it's also the pain for the damaged, if not unsalvagable future. It really hurts when you can't see a way forward together.

The one positive is that staying or going is your choice. It just depends on what you will and won't accept. There's no right or wrong answer as long as it's driven by what you choose....not by what you fear.

There is a manual used by psychiatrist and psychologist to describe all the things that happen to human beings mentally. The one that I was completely obsessed with in college, and found out my job introduced me to so many people that suffered from these, that I think I’m pretty much of an expert. These are called personality disorders. They are written by experts about how you have to meet the criteria before they will allow someone to be diagnosed with them. The problem is no two human beings are alike and they may have one personality disorder that bleeds into the next that bleeds into the next. The personality disorders that I’ve dealt with the most and even run into a couple in my own private life is cluster B. Those are people with borderline personality disorder, histrionic personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, and antisocial-sociopathic personality disorder. People who are sociopaths and or psychopaths are people with absolutely no ability to have empathy. You are a thing to them. They may use you to provide a home or money, but they could care less about you. One of the best examples I saw happen to be show on television (non-fiction by the way), which showed a mother who not only murdered her husband, but set up her daughter to take the fall. She’s a pure sociopath. I have no idea where on that spectrum your wife is but she’s somewhere. Or she might be one they’ve never recognized before. The one thing you can bank on is she’s not going to change.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 4:06 AM, Friday, February 13th]

It’s kind of a sick gift when we have another D-Day. But it’s a gift because now we know who they are and that they have not changed and will probably not change. So whatever you choose to do from here you can do without Hopium.

I hope that you do divorce her because she does seem irredeemable. And you deserve better. I also think that you should tell your daughter in an age-appropriate way. If she’s a teenager, I think you can say that mom had other boyfriends or something like that, but a therapist might actually be helpful to get the right wording for that.

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you luck. Take care of yourself and see a trauma informed therapist if you can to help you work through this true trauma.

Once you leave this woman, you will actually start the healing process. And once you start healing, you're going to be bewildered by the fact that you stayed with her so long.

I agree w BluerThanBlue.

This may sound harsh and get you angry but it's actually the point. I'd say you ought to make it your quest to get to the bottom as to why you have been FOOLING YOURSELF staying with your WW as long as you have been.

You have been betraying yourself too, you know.

I agree w BluerThanBlue.

This may sound harsh and get you angry but it's actually the point. I'd say you ought to make it your quest to get to the bottom as to why you have been FOOLING YOURSELF staying with your WW as long as you have been.

You have been betraying yourself too, you know.

I thank you from the very depths of my heart for your support. All of you

Not a platitude, we don’t know each other but for the first time in my life I have someone who I can talk with and that understands, instead of just silence and isolation.

She swears and brought evidences that it was nothing more than a fantasy and validation.

I obviously don’t believe her right now. I just can’t.

Even if it is true, and I am surprised about this feeling , this hurts like if not even more than her adultery and replacement 2 years later.

It might sound pointless but it is the hardest hit yet.

The adultery broke me and threw me into depression, trauma and ptsd for 17 years.

This didn’t happen now, I processed and integrated it within hours, I am still at peace.

But the pain I felt it was stronger than in 2008, I am not sure if it is because of how clear I feel emotions today or because it cut something deeper.

I am still here not out of fear, desperation or trauma, when I wrote the initial post it was just about a hour or so after I found out, so I was obviously disregulated. I am still here for my daughter, like before, this is a new wound in my heart collection, but I promise it didn’t shake me one bit how I was before. Not because it’s old, it’s obviously perceived as it happened now, but because I am still grounded in my own peace.

I believe that you are very likely right, I wasted my life and it is unlikely that she will change.

And I know you may think it’s stupid, but because for the first time in our history she acknowledged her issues and promised to work on healing what she sees as a sickness, I accepted her plea to wait a little longer before divorcing.

Possibly I am still flawed and this feels like I am an idiot (not excluded), but I gave my word that I will give this one chance. No promises about reconciliation, that’s out of the scope right now.

But I committed, I still believe that I can’t step back from this. I probably need to agree a time limit though, because I can’t imagine that going on forever

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 8:54 AM, Sunday, February 15th]

But isn't it so typical of Waywards to ask that they not be made to pay the price for their decisions? I see this here on SI so often. The cheater begs to keep the BS. Repeatedly.

It's not unlike the cycle of abuse we learned about in a course dealing with abnormal mental issues: the abuse is almost invariably followed by what they call the "honeymoon period," where a Perpetrator of Domestic Violence will go to counseling, try to change their behaviors, and just about do everything they can to convince the Victim not to leave. A Perpetrator's goal is to keep their Victim there for the next cycle of abuse.

There are subsequent stages that lead back up to the next violent incident, but the first stage after wounding the Victim is known as the stage where a Perpetrator will be as sweet as they know how to be. And police report they often struggle to get the domestic abuse Victim to press charges which they need them to, in order for the law to remove the Perpetrator. So the police keep getting called back to the same address! It's just a matter of time. If the Victim-Perpetrator relationship remains intact, frequently the Victim eventually will pay with their life for believing the Perpetrator's intent to change. The solution involves getting the Victim to safety first.

So please, listen to everyone who asks you why you are so hooked on this. I understand that you have many "playing cards" that she sees are keeping you in this game, so you over-play "the detachment card" - while still having sex with her, and apparently enjoying it. I do wonder if by this relationship continuing, you are hoping to heal your own childhood wound by seeing her transformed. No wonder you are in conflict. She is not the mother whose love was not there for you. But it appears she has re-opened that wound, as you sadly described in one of your first posts.

The point I'm trying to make is that her inner work needs to happen independent of any manipulating of your emotions, any attempts to keep you STUCK to her, and it is likely not going to be a rapid process for her.

Thus: back to WontBeFooledAgain's question. Don't keep betraying yourself in the pursuit of this toxic love!

I'm sorry you're going through DDay again, but I'm glad you are here for perspective and support.

You said in your last post that "I wasted my life and it is unlikely that she will change." You may be right about the second part - she won't change unless she is willing to put in a tremendous amount of work on herself. You're not right about the first part, however. You haven't wasted your life since DDay 1. You've learned a lot and know you're married to a serial cheater.

The question is whether you want to continue, knowing what you've learned. You mentioned putting a time limit on how long you're willing to give her a chance, which is smart. My thought would be to make that time limit pretty short. She can't make massive change overnight, but she's had your entire relationship to change her patterns, and she hasn't.

Superesse, thank you. I write a lot because is part sharing and part voicing my emotions suppressed for a lifetime, so I understand that while it might appear I am not listening to your heartfelt advice I can guarantee you that I am over the same line of thought.

I read and appreciate every advice, it gives me clarity and resonates.

I acknowledge that the problem with how I write about my personal stuff is confusing because it verges upon my oldest emotions and the pst as I understand it in the present. I can see the desperation and pain my posts exude, though I am not currently in that place.

I feel I need to clarify what is the situation now, instead of just talking and dissecting my emotions, because I came to know through this time here that you all, BS and reformed WS who are supporting me, are people who truly care and feel genuine empathy for others who are or have experienced this type of trauma.

So how does it look like the life here:
- I am at peace. I integrated the traumas, betrayal and past ones too, I truly feel in a better place. Never been so strong or happier in my entire life.

- since the very moment I changed from depression to this, my wife reacted. At first with fear, shortly after she fell in love like a teenager crush. I could possibly call it limerence, not yet entirely sure if accurate.

- I am detached as in self centered on myself, here and now. Rebuilding a life. Present for the family. I was dissociated in the past 17 years, now I’m connected. Myself again, just stronger.

- I am not pursuing love from my wife. I am not walled to her affection, emotional or sexual, still is not the same as before when I was in love. It’s more like when you date someone but you are still in the early stages of evaluating them. I like this woman, I don’t think she is right now partner material. She is a woman, not THE woman, if you get what I mean. Because she proved in the past her terrible flaws.

- she knows it. After the honeymoon of her crash she wanted to know why I make her feel like she is 20 again. I told her. It hurt her a lot. She thought that the past was gone and forgiven. She thought that because she was faithful since we married we were good.I shattered that delusion. She understands now that I went through hell because her past choices, she didn’t ever want to confront them because the shame they bring to her. Result is she buried her issues and urges, not resolved them.

- she knows that I awakened to the realization that our relationship was truly dead at her adultery. What we had after was just my trauma bond and her guilt and lies. She trying to preserve her image on me, me clinging to an idealized dead past. It wasn’t love, it was a toxic relationship no matter the rings and the vows.

- she accepted that the only reason I am sticking around right now is our daughter. I accept her flaws but she is not the kind of woman I want in my life. I truly loved her but I do feel I deserve better, there are better women out there I can truly be happy with.

- she accepted this and cried a lot alone. I didn’t mind, let her take care of her grief alone. She came back to me telling that she understands it and she will leave with the consequences. But whatever I decide she will be fighting for me, she looked in the mirror and felt disgusted by herself. She asked me to give her sometime to try to heal and show me. She knows and accepts that I can still walk away and not want R. But she will heal for herself first, because she hated what she saw in the mirror, as she truly looked for the first time.

- she started by coming clean with other betrayals she kept hidden, she gave me full access to all her accounts and searched and shared everything that incriminated her about those. It was her initiative and I appreciated it.

- she changed therapy, bought books, research and went through a lot of painful disclosures with me. She even started to bring it up unsolicited no matter how hard and shameful she feels about it, she’s is at the very least trying.

- she is aware that we live in a permanent 180 until she heals enough that we can consider if there is ground to start R process. I can pull away at any moment, no question asked, and she understands it.

- I can see she is truly trying every day. We made mistakes, she still has moments of trickle truths like this dday #3 which reset all the progress to zero. I had moments where I ended up being her therapist, trying to heal her, that is wrong it just backfires.

- we are making corrections to our mistakes because she has to heal herself first, no matter what. I live my life and we are having a roommate situation here, I don’t reject her passion or affection but I don’t search it either. Well sometimes I do, like when stuff like this pops out, it’s normal and we respect each others boundaries (99% of the time, fuckups happen)

- in the meanwhile I am trying to understand the meaning of the emotions and learning about the past trauma. Because I never processed it I think I still need to go back to the past and do the work, even if I feel healed it wasn’t conscious it was a natural bottom up process of surrender. I never done the top down work, I found SI and I am here to share and learn, do my homework. At last.

And thanks to you I am understanding and integrating a lot of things that I have never realized in my journey through the abyss.

I wrote a lot again, this time not about my emotions but about the situation. I have restored both my agency and peace.

My wife is facing her demons, and a lot of this crap comes from her childhood and her FOO.

This doesn’t absolve her from her affairs and betrays, she has done some truly horrible things to me and we both paid the consequences for her choices, me first, her now. And we still have no idea how long the bill truly is.

So here’s where we stand.
I committed to give her one chance to heal her wounds and become a safe partner.
I didn’t commit to any reconciliation. Because that’s still a next step and there’s no talk of the future of the relationship now, only today.

The toxic relationship is dead. It was what we had between her adultery and my healing, even if we married and had a child in the meantime, that relationship was based on a fake R, no foundation only lies and trauma.

She has her path, I have mine that includes this place to understand my unfazed ghosts.
I know full well that the least painful path is what you suggested: leave her and find a good woman, someone that can give trust and you can live a life with love.

I think that too, right now is the most likely outcome for what I feel. Because even if she heal herself and becomes safe and stronger, our past will always be tainted by her betrayals and other men.
It’s a kind of dirty shit that you can never fully get away, the smell will forever float around from time to time.

But I also committed to give her one chance before the final decision. No more, only one.
I did it out of gut feeling, not logic, for whatever reason I will stick to my word and give her some time, months not years, to asses.

Meanwhile we keep living under the same roof and be mommy and daddy for our little girl, being roommates for our daily lives and I accept her crush when I feel good because I still like her.

Is different from love, it’s not enough for me, it will have do for the near future until I have enough clarity.
I truly don’t care about tomorrow’s outcomes, it will be fine.

The question is whether you want to continue, knowing what you've learned. You mentioned putting a time limit on how long you're willing to give her a chance, which is smart. My thought would be to make that time limit pretty short. She can't make massive change overnight, but she's had your entire relationship to change her patterns, and she hasn't.

Yes, I am checking closely if she is showing any progress.

I will ponder on this truly.

This one is to date the most painful of all. Even of her adultery from 2008.

By far.

Tainting the fresh love, the most treasured memories is.... bad.

I can detach from it, but if I go over it, it really, really hurts.

I did not think I could still feel these emotions so intensely.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 9:34 PM, Monday, February 16th]