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I really don't want to get into the whole Plato v Glaucon argument about justice. Or really the fundamental philosophical debate about justice. Despite what I just said, I'm going to wade into this, just a tiny bit anyway.

Restorative justice, is the idea that the most just thing to do is to bring recompense to those harmed and have the offender accept responsibility for their actions, understand the harm they have cause, and teach them how to improve.

The idea of "earned forgiveness" is pretty key here as well. I've mentioned Janice Spring's book "How Can I Forgive You" as having some really great key concepts around this. The offender must take action to earn forgiveness, rather than thinking it as something offered by the victim.

Under this concept, for R we can ask some questions. What has the WS done to provide recompense for the injuries? What have they changed to become a safe partner? Have they demonstrated adequate understanding of the harm? Can that alone not be justice?

Justice need not be punitive or retributive.

Leaving or staying could both be justice in its own way for a whole lot of people. I respect your individual choice of what’s right for you. But I don’t think that you can speak for whether my husband feels justice in it. It’s all very individual.

We are entirely aligned, it's absolutely individual. I can only speak to my sense of what justice is. Perhaps for my understanding you could ask him to explain how...:

Seeing that your ws has turned themselves inside out to figure out thier issues and seeing big changes in that person, them revealing all they learned about how they have conducted themselves over the years and how those ways were wrong. Getting deep apologies for all of it along the way- not just the affair but for all the things they couldn’t see. And then truly trying to make amends for it, not just today but for the rest of their life-

...Is justice. Is the apologies or the acting like the worthy partner they ways should have to begin with? Perhaps it's the making amends, how does one make amends in such circumstances? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely struggling to see the perspective

Late to the party, thought I would add my 2 cents on the latest comments.

I think anyone will agree that infidelity destroys something that can’t ever be fully restored. However, I think what matters here is what you do with that reality and whether every outcome besides divorce can be labeled "injustice."

To me, the "justice = divorce" equation oversimplifies something that’s deeply personal and situational. Not everyone gets a "net gain" just because their spouse stayed. If anything, a remorseful WS often lives with the long-term consequences every single day—loss of trust, loss of respect, restricted access, ongoing accountability, transparency, therapy, and the reality that the relationship will never be what it once was. It’s a permanent downgrade of their own self-worth. This doesn’t sound like much of a reward to me.

The BS staying isn’t some cushy "comfort and security" situation. Staying after infidelity is often the harder path. It means years of trauma processing, vulnerability, boundary-setting, and relearning how to emotionally coexist with someone who hurt you.

DR.SOOLERS, your "bad choices deserve bad outcomes" line reads more like a punishment philosophy than a justice philosophy. Justice isn’t always about inflicting maximum pain; sometimes it’s about creating a life you actually want to live. For some, that’s leaving. For others, that’s rebuilding something on their own terms.

And the idea of "cutting off your nose to spite your face"… divorce isn’t inherently justice. For some it is. For others, it’s just another painful outcome. Choosing not to amputate your entire life because your partner blew up the M isn’t weakness or lack of self-respect. It’s making a decision based on what serves your future, not your anger.

Divorce is a consequence. Rebuilding with strict boundaries, conditions, and accountability is also a consequence. Neither cancels out the damage or restores the original "house." They’re just different paths forward.

Divorce is a consequence. Rebuilding with strict boundaries, conditions, and accountability is also a consequence. Neither cancels out the damage or restores the original "house." They’re just different paths forward.

I agree 100%.

This is real life w/ kids and families. This isn’t some movie where the betrayed exacts revenge to the Nth degree. While many BS choose to D, others have no choice but to D. Reconciliation is not an option unfortunately.

While some have to resort to some pretty terrible things to keep their sanity and get the cheater to move out or leave, luckily it’s not the norm.

Though I do like hearing about a good revenge story from a BS

One issue which is immensely relevant to all of us impacted by infidelity is that we cannot get away from the fact that the BSes WERE betrayed, and WSes did the betrayal. There is nothing one can do to get away from those facts. IMO, it's better to start our healing by embracing those facts.

R almost forces the BS to deal with the anger, grief, fear, and shame of being betrayed. Also, we BSes who want to heal all have to deal with our preconceptions and self-talk. If a BS goes into d-day with contempt for BSes, or if they think As are glamorous and mind-blowing sexually, or that WSes are branded as sub-human forever, they have to examine their beliefs carefully and discard the ones that don't apply, whether they D or R.

Cutting off the WS is only a small step in healing at best - and the fact that so many of us stop there is unfortunate in the extreme, at least IMO.

BSes are best advised, IMO, to deal with our betrayal trauma before it screws up other relationships - and not healing may affect every other relationship, romantic or not, IMO. We need to take responsibility for the effects of being betrayed on us, even though someone else did the betrayal.

IMO, WSes have a similar problem - they need to take responsibility for themselves and figure how to keep doing the next right things, even though they did others tremendously hurtful things. Guilt and shame are not excuses for continuing to hurt people; a WS who excuses themself with 'hurt people hurt people' is not a great candidate for R.

*****

For ALL of us, change in this life is unavoidable and largely unpredictable. Life can be said to betray each of us - and even if it doesn't, one has to prepare themself for change anyway. And no matter what, change can take away, and it also can give.

*****

I watch a lot of home improvement shows on TV, and I come from an old city. My first apartment was the 3rd floor of a house built in 1809, and one of my teachers lived right across the street in a house built right after the revolution.

The shows make it clear that an old house can be made better than new. Sagging floors can be strengthened. Inefficient or non-existent HVAC can be renewed to be both much more effective and much more efficient, as can plumbing and electricity. Houses can be rebuilt after being burned to the ground.

So I'm OK with the analogy between houses and Ms.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 10:07 PM, Tuesday, November 25th]