SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

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KitchenDepth5551

After D-day, it was different for me personally. If my WH asked how my day went, I was not going to give an accounting. It's too vulnerable, and I did not feel he had the right to know. I'm not sure I feel he has the "right to know" everything even now after several years.

In the immediate aftermath of Dday my H would ask how my day was/what my plans were, etc. (you know, the typical things a spouse would ask one another on any given day) … except my response was "it’s none of your business and if I feel like you should know my business then I will tell you." However, now at 16 months out, I have slightly shifted my thinking as we have both agreed and are committed to R.

There is a type of "truism" on here that you need to be vulnerable and transparent for reconciliation. I don't know. I guess so for true reconciliation, but damn it's hard to do.

I very much understand why you need to be transparent and vulnerable (both for the WS and BS). I know its easier said then done. I have my own struggles with being vulnerable and transparent and I’m still trying to navigate between the two.

Shehawk

Just like you and your now fiancée (congratulations 💓) my H and I have always had an open door policy with everything and anything … we just never checked or felt the need to check in on each other in that way.

In our MC, we did an infidelity intensive weekend a few months from Dday. Our therapist asked him in what ways he could help rebuild my trust and the tracking app was one of his suggestions.

In turn, I also offered to provide him with my location (maybe as some kind of peace offering … let’s do "this" together type of thing). Fast forward a short while later, the "tracking" started to anger and annoy me … I thought it was "stupid" and turned them off. I asked myself, "what kind of world are we living in if we have to do this with one another … what the hell kind of an M is this?!" I told him that this makes me feel like we’re babysitting each other and I refuse to be his babysitter and I refuse to be babysat. If you want to be a good person, a loyal and honest husband and father … then just do it! I cannot make you be this kind of person, YOU have to want it and put in the work to be good, loyal and safe.

Obviously, I do understand why people might use a tracking app either for infidelity or non-infidelity purposes. But it honestly wasn’t a path that served me in the way it does for others. And that’s ok!

ScaredSoul33

I definitely think everyone interprets words, phrases differently. But I think everyone who has commented here understands the nature of my post regardless of terminology.

And at some point, the BS has to be brave enough to extend trust without requiring literal receipts. I'm sorry, I don't know Heartbrokenwife23's status as far as latest DDays, type of A, etc. but if it's been a year and a half since the last DDay and H has been a good boy, why is he still required to literally show receipts?

I’ve definitely acquired the "bravery" in regards to extending the trust. I mentioned above when responding to Shehawk that even from the beginning with the tracking app, receipts, constant phone calls/FTs, taking at least one of the kids with him on every outing, etc… all didn’t really make me feel better. After a very (very) short time of doing these things, I flat out refused to "babysit" him. And yes, I very much looked at these "accountability measures" as a means of babysitting or keeping "tabs." I hated it, and it really didn’t provide me with a great sense of relief. It actually made me sad to see that he put himself (our family) in such a shit position to begin with, that he had to provide me with receipts to confirm his whereabouts. Ugh! To quickly respond to the second part of this paragraph … 1 Dday that took place in October 2023 and yes he’s been a "good boy" and has proven himself in many ways … but he has a ways to go and I see his willingness to learn and understand. Receipts are definitely not a requirement…never really were, but he would do absolutely anything if it helped in the slightest.

The1stWife

There is definitely two schools of thought here and I definitely appreciate and understand both of them.

It’s up to the two people in the marriage to decide how to navigate these issues going forward.

This is where my original thought process around the question kinda was fuzzy. Obviously, I don’t want it or expect it to be a one way street when I look at the bigger picture of what I want our M to be and to represent. Then again like a few others have mentioned, eventually you get to more of a "equal or level" playing field once the foundation of trust and consistent efforts have been built. Obviously, we have to reached this threshold yet.

Mardandra

I think the question here is: "is he getting better at comprehending as time goes on?" Because if you guys get stuck for too long on stuff like this it can definitely cause resentment and endanger R. If it's merely going slowly, it might just be that your WH is an emotionally slow learner, though ultimately how much slowness you can tolerate is up to you.

I very much believe he is trying extremely hard to comprehend the monstrosity he’s created, but he admits he gets stuck and frustrated with himself. I think what it boils down to is the taking one step forward two steps back, two steps forward one step back dance.

He is probably one of the most emotionally immature people I have ever met. However, he’s very much "matured" and in many ways become a grown man … a man I haven’t seen in a very long time. guess I mean … this was who he was and for a long time. He’s owned up to how he acted like an "entitled teenager" (his words) and how ashamed he is that he allowed himself to stoop to the lowest of the low.

I consider myself to have a pretty high tolerance, although, my tolerance has run pretty thin at times with him since Dday. However, I was confident he would never change and he was destined to be that lying, cheating POS forever … to my surprise he proved me wrong. Hence, why I’m here watching and waiting for his next "aha" realization. I know he’s capable, I know he needs extra time to process things.

hikingout

I think the bs and ws have more of a reciprocal role than an equal role in the marriage until higher ground is reached. The ws proving themselves as trustworthy is their responsibility. The bs’s role is to allow that trust to be earned.

Again, this is very aligned with my current way of thinking. I’m completely open to *full* transparency again on my part once a significant level of trust has been re-established.

But if you asked me a year in or two years in, there is no equality to measure. It has nothing to do with one being bad or one being good, or power dynamics or punishment, it’s more about being sensitive to what your spouse may need. Not every bs needs this, others need it a lot. To me what her husband is saying is a red flag that he does not see this. It makes me feel he doesn’t see the scope of the damage.

*I feel* my H thinks that 16 months out is a "long time" … that he’s earned a great amount of trust back already through his accountability and transparency. In his eyes we should start to head down a more "equal" path and should be providing the other with "equal" considerations … now keep in mind, this is just how I feel, he has not verbalized this. I don’t know if he fully understands that this takes years (YEARS) … I’ve told him about the 2-5 year rule … and that we aren’t even at 1.5 years quite yet and by the 2-5 year scale we have a long ass road ahead.

I think he really tries to be sensitive to my needs, but his needs get in the way and he genuinely has a hard time distinguishing between mine and his and how he can effectively handle both. My H really is struggling with the pain he’s inflicted on me/his daughters and I know if he could create a time machine and go back he would undo all of his shit choices in a heartbeat. He realizes he can’t do that, he knows this is a long haul and he’s very scared of the potential outcome of losing the only thing of value to him. On top of his infidelity mess, he’s now estranged from his family (his choice) as they are not "friends" of our M and have been toxic to us for quite some time (we didn’t fully understand the extent of it until recent). This has definitely added significantly to his stress and depression over the past few months. There is just so much "damage" that has happened in the past 16 months it really is hard to process both for me and for him. I, him, we are trying our best as curve balls with other areas of our life are being thrown at us.

Retrospected

I mean I'm grateful that you are expressing your thoughts and feelings, but those are immaterial right now. I need to know that I can trust you!

This is something I have had to remind him of. Like, I get that you’re struggling and I appreciate your vulnerability and your willingness to express yourself, but your wants and needs are taking a back fuckin seat right now. Maybe at a later date once you’ve done some significant work I’ll take your shit into consideration. *slight humour intended in my profanity, but definitely truth to it*

Theevent

Thank you! I remember reading this several months ago and thought it was great. This is something I’m going to have my H read over. I think he will appreciate and be able to better comprehend this message coming from a remarkable FWH.

[This message edited by Heartbrokenwife23 at 5:22 AM, Friday, February 21st]

What is good for the goose is good for the gander

Transparency is how to affair proof a marriage

Many WS follow the double standard during their PA. Ok for them to step out but they cannot accept their BS stepping out.

Combine that with many BS having RA’s and many WS after d day become paranoid that their BS may step out leaves them with the need to be reassured that the both of them are working to recover their marriage.

Nothing wrong with both spouses reassuring each other.

It only took one to break a marriage but it takes two to recover a marriage.

I slipped and fell on the ice.

Now, every time I see ice, I warn my wife, "Watch out for the ice!" "Stay away from the ice!"

Because now I know how easy it is to slip and fall.

Am I treating her like a child, disrespecting her? Implying that she is as careless as I was? I hope not.

Perhaps a WS, one who took their vows seriously, who thought they had strong character, good morals, religion, integrity; but cheated anyway, now understands how easy it is to get on a slippery slope, and how hard it is to get off it, and thinks both he/her and their partner should take every precaution, and be vigilant. (What a sentence)

And be worried that their partner will, too, fall on the ice.

Formerpeopleperson, an accident is not the same as making a choice.

But to use your analogy, if you're the type of person who doesn't pay attention to where they're going and slips on ice, then your focus you should be on being mindful of your surroundings... not constantly saying "watch out!" to people who know there's ice and have never slipped on it.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 3:23 PM, Friday, February 21st]

16 months seems pretty early to me to trust. I was actively expecting full accountability of time and tracking apps enabled from my WS for years. I don't care if it's fair that I didn't give it back that same transparency. It's what I was willing to accept.

I haven't check location or anything in a long time. If I did start to see behavior that I thought was suspicious, something like missing gaps of time or my WS not talking about his day, I would wonder about another affair. I would feel free to check up on it without saying anything to him. I don't think that will ever change. If he sees actions from me similar to my lying after his affair, something like me withdrawing and turning off location and gaps of missing time, my WS would probably be wise to assume I was planning a separation or divorce. I'm not sure I would be upset if he checked up on me without saying anything. My behavior was pretty sneaky.

I don't know that once trust is broken it is ever 100% restored. I can live with that in my marriage, and my WS can choose what he will live with in marriage.

I have many siblings. We're all in our 50s and 60s. One sibling has had drug and alcohol issues, but until recently was clean for years. Still, when my other sibling called to tell me he was having mental and physical health issues, I asked if it was drugs/alcohol. It was. I would never give that sibling money without strict boundaries no matter how much time passed. Yet, I have joint and joint with rights of survivorship with another sibling.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander

Transparency is how to affair proof a marriage

Many WS follow the double standard during their PA. Ok for them to step out but they cannot accept their BS stepping out.

Combine that with many BS having RA’s and many WS after d day become paranoid that their BS may step out leaves them with the need to be reassured that the both of them are working to recover their marriage.

Nothing wrong with both spouses reassuring each other.

It only took one to break a marriage but it takes two to recover a marriage.

My sentiments exactly.

My personality is such that fairness and equality are paramount. I don't know how much stock to put in astrology, but I'm a Libra rising, and it totally tracks.

Based on what I had always said, and based on the gravity of the shit that he had pulled, my H "knew" that I would not want to R. He did not trust me when I said that I did. He seriously thought that I was trying to lure him closer so that I could more easily cut off his head. (Figuratively speaking.) By holding myself to the same standards as him, which HE did not request nor require, I was showing him that I was all in, I cared about his feelings, and I wasn't looking to hurt him or emasculate him.

Also, following my C's advice, I decided to bravely extend trust and react to broken trust if/when it happened. By going all in, this also showed my H that I truly wanted R. I suppose it's like handling a skittish dog. That's what's popping into my head. I want you to trust me and I want to be able to trust you, so let's show each other trustworthy behavior. Here's some cheese. lol

Maybe my perspective isn't a popular one, but it worked for me. It worked beautifully.

PS - Don't think for a second that I went easy on him.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 5:00 PM, Friday, February 21st]

I know I said I would bow out but I promise I didn’t show up to argue! I actually had to come back because it is such a good conversation that I am still getting a lot out of. There is a lot of good things being said. And I get the other perspective. And it obviously worked well for some folks here.

I think in my situation it just never occurred that way to either of us. But reading what people have expressed makes me truly believe there isn’t a wrong or right way to do it.

I am not convinced that most ws can learn some of these things without feeling some of the same insecurity in the relationship they doled out to the bs. I am not advising to be punitive or manipulative but giving the ws a false sense of security by doing something inauthentic to you may not be the answer either. (Not saying it was inauthentic coming from you sacred, but that I think it would be for heartbroken)

On the other hand, I wholeheartedly can see the amazing love and understanding sacred soul for example gave to her ws in being in it with him. I am guessing he found other ways to show he was in it with you as well.

I feel like I still got the same effect sacred soul describes. For me, the love butterflies come from our investment in the relationship and specifically in the person we profess to love. The fact he was still with me and trying was evident to me that he loved me. His behaviors were evidence he was hurting. When I could find ways to stop the bleeding it allowed me to touch the love I had buried in myself for him. And that was healing for both of us. It reminded me that I wasn’t all bad and helped me shed some of the shame. It strengthened my empathy because then I started to look at other aspects of his damage and began figuring out other triggers that I could possibly circumvent.

However, getting back to the OP’s situation - The issue isn’t really his check ins. I think she just wants him to show that understanding and effort. That he has thought about what he has done to her trust and is actively finding ways to repair it. She needs him to care about what she needs even if it’s illogical or unequal or otherwise. That he will be a safe landing emotionally and she can rely on him.

If she acquiesces, it’s going to be a thorn in her side that is likely going to fester into new resentments. So in many ways it is in his best interest if he really wants to reconcile to recognize the importance to her in this action.

Yes, she does need to show him that she is serious too about the reconciliation, I am just not sure this is the hill to die on about it. But perhaps it may help if she explains the underlying issues in a deeper way instead of arguing about the issue itself. Expand his mind to think okay there is a minefield here that I need to get the layout of- where are these spots and how can I disarm them so we can walk this field together? Helping our bs with triggers is a make or break skill. Being curious about the pain is how remorse grows deeper.

I personally think that even if she isn’t yet showing him security- maybe it’s an honest and transparent way of showing him where he stands so he knows there is work ahead. Though I do really really appreciate the compassion being expressed in this post about showing equality to their ws. And I can fully get on board with those general sentiments. I just have walked this walk as the ws and I do not think it’s anywhere near as painful to offer that as it is for the person who needs it.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:49 PM, Friday, February 21st]

I'm going to clarify.

The BS is dealing with a massive betrayal where they will need to be able to supply their unvarnished feelings and thoughts on WS to their support network. There is no reason for WS to be able to review these detailed thoughts through full transparency. The BS needs to know what the WS support network is like. Are they encouraging the affair? Are they saying the BS is too demanding?

Furthermore, BS needs to have a private channel to communicate with their lawyer to explore divorce completely without WS looking. WS is free to have the same privacy with their lawyer, but if they demand it, I think it's likely that the whole thing is head to a certain D anyway.

Full electronic transparency is not a two way street, especially early on. The far reaching "equalization" is a return to the BS not feeling the need to check on the WS, not the BS opening up all accounts for the WS to eventually explore.

In a recent thread, someone wondered if asking their soon-to-be fiancé for access to their phone would be ok. I thought it was a bad idea, but most seemed ok with it.

In this thread, though, I am ok with a request for transparency, but most seem opposed.

I’m going to think about this for a bit.

This0is0fine makes a very valid point about keeping intimate communications private. This brings me back to my wondering if this is a generational thing, or maybe it’s just me. I would never have an intimate conversation with someone via text or email. There’s way too much chance of misunderstanding. And it’s hard for me to focus on what I’m saying when I’m thinking about spelling, grammar and punctuation.

And as someone who used to deal with the "privacy" of electronic communications a lot, I can assure that they are never private.

In a recent thread, someone wondered if asking their soon-to-be fiancé for access to their phone would be ok. I thought it was a bad idea, but most seemed ok with it.

In this thread, though, I am ok with a request for transparency, but most seem opposed.

In that thread it's a relationships of equals, in this thread it's a relationship between a victim and an abuser.

I'm all aboard the notion that a WS needs to do the heavy lifting in regards to building trust. I guess terms like "readily offered" are the key. If your WS is all go, who the fuck am I to judge whatever arrangements you have negotiated aside from abuse.

I still don't understand how knowing that my spouse is at the grocery store means that they aren't banging the hot cashier. I don't know, It seems trust comes back when I've done enough work on myself. The BS heals themselves.