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. I feel power in the sense that I hear the details and then on the flipside I feel power knowing they don't mean a damn thing, if that makes sense?

Yes very normal

Groot,

I had to hear every detail, everything they did. Even positions. Every time, every day where she went to him first then came home to me. All of it.

Honestly, almost 2 years later, it’s better. It was devastating when I learned everything, felt as though I was swallowed into a the earth and I don’t remember a lot about those early months. Lots of gym time and getting my anger out. I don’t regret knowing what I know. Everyone cautions on what you learn/see you can’t undo, but I personally feel, it happened, and I needed the reality.

Point is, if it’s what you need, it’s what you need and that’s the way through no matter what.

[This message edited by HellIsNotHalfFull at 2:35 PM, Tuesday, May 21st]

Hellisnothalffull

I struggle with asking certain questions because I know the A heightens so many senses. It takes something that could be complete garbage and makes it look like a glittery unicorn.

I just know that if he was with her in a normal life with no A or if it wasnt forbidden he wouldn't have felt the way he did and to me his opinion of her and what she was worth is skewed.
Looking at this girl I know for a fact she isn't his type and that she has nothing to offer.

Did he enjoy it then? Uh yea.
Did he tell her she was beautiful, gorgeous even? Probably.
- I know he cared about how he felt not her, he needed those ego kibbles , he needed to keep her coming back for more.

So I guess what I am trying to say is some of the details and memories are very tainted by the "fog" and I truly believe that.
Maybe Hikingout can add some clarity here for me because I just don't see knowing certain things because they all were a trashy fantasy and in real life it wouldn't be such rainbows and butterflies? Maybe I am viewing it wrong.
Who knows at this point.

I can't wait till I am there, I take long ways to avoid a hotel he took her too and then the other hotel, we just avoid the complete city. my stomach drops seeing the sign from the freeway.. so I have a long time to go before that gets better.

I was a disaster at your timeframe, pretty sure there were people here who would have done a wellness call on me if only they knew my secret identity (to my fellow Marvel themed member). It gets better, I promise. Take the long route, avoid a city, I’ve done both, you do what you need to to cope.

The more he is empathetic, remorseful, and honest about his feelings I feel the less I need to ask. It is on my days where I feel like letting those walls down that the questions flood me.

Hey look, you are learning about yourself! That is genuinely a great example of self awareness and figuring out what moves your mind and heart. Keep it up!

Sorry, I am word vomiting here in circles.

If you need to circle, circle away, we will be here. I personally have so much to pay forward, and its also a privilege to have people open up like this, so thanks for trusting us to do that.

So I guess what I am trying to say is some of the details and memories are very tainted by the "fog" and I truly believe that.

Maybe Hikingout can add some clarity here for me because I just don't see knowing certain things because they all were a trashy fantasy and in real life it wouldn't be such rainbows and butterflies? Maybe I am viewing it wrong.

There used to be a good article in the healing library in this, it’s about how ws brainwash themselves.

Here is the unconscious construction of an affair:

So, the ws a lot of the time wants to see themselves a certain way. That’s often what drives the affair.

Some cheat for other reasons than that but when it’s a romantic affair I think that to be the most delusional kind. It’s because in other types, it stays just sex or what they were seeking is what they got.

But when it comes to emotional connections you can’t have that when someone is emotionally unavailable. So what ends up happening is a lot of justification and insecurities. There is no way to receive what you are seeking in the affair if it’s about love. But a lot of times that’s a surface seek anyway. What you are really searching for is a hiding spot.

These insecurities are constantly being shored up in the aisle of make believe. The appeal of the ap becomes very mich a way of validating whoever you are pretending to be. For me it was I wished for a younger, sexier, interesting, vibrant, funnier and more clever me.

So as you start to reflect that the ap is constantly validating it. The fantasy really isn’t about the ap, it’s about you. So you need the ap to have credentials, you think they are amazing because they are the witness to how great you are. So you hype them more and more so the attention seems special.

At the same time you feel awful about what you are doing and you mask it with all these justifications. You start believing your own lies. And when the time with ap is up, you feel like you don’t really know who you are anymore. You have wrapped this false identity around them.

So for probably 3-6 months it’s a lot of discovery of how badly you lied to yourself. This is what I think of as the fog. It’s not mysterious, it’s a slowly growing consciousness that you have distorted your own reality in the process of experiencing being this other person.

And this other person I was being was really stupid, kind of disgusting, and not truly who I wanted to be. Looking back I was just so dead inside I wanted to be anyone but me.

I feel pretty certain I would rather be the real me, flaws and all than to ever enter that bubble again. Sure I was giddy in it, but when the curtain closed on the role, no one was clapping. Definitely not me.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:01 PM, Tuesday, May 21st]

Hikingout , as always thank you, I know you've been on both sides of this mess.
My H basically says the same thing just not in so many words, he is very bad with words and clearly communication.
It took him months to realize that this was all about himself and nothing about her, even though I know this most days , obv I still get down. It wasn't about her but he gave his energy, his body, his attention, to someone else.

He is very much out of the fog now but mannnnn that time of him thinking everything with her was better really damaged our marriage. He sees it and when I remind him of what he said, he cringes.

That is what I mean by the questions that I have, I think don't matter in a sense. Nothing was real, he wasn't even real at the time, so what he enjoyed then wasn't who he really is, it was a made up person where he felt loved, validated, smart, funny, wealthy.

I am going to talk to my therapist next week.

That is what I mean by the questions that I have, I think don't matter in a sense. Nothing was real, he wasn't even real at the time, so what he enjoyed then wasn't who he really is, it was a made up person where he felt loved, validated, smart, funny, wealthy.

In that sense, they might not matter. But from the perspective of giving your mind the building blocks it needs to reconstruct a "good enough" reality of the timeline that has been blown apart by lies and betrayal so you can find peace, they might mean everything.

Ink, as always spot on.

After I saw the timeline, after I saw the dates on paper, the bank statements.. that is when I finally could pick myself up off of the floor. Those were what mattered the most to me , to know that when he told me he only went to a hotel three times, or he only ate with her at the same restaraunt, when those were confirmed that is when I let out a bit of breath.

As far as the color of her underwear, whether she wore make up when he saw her, whether she went down on him each time... I just don't know if I can see that adding value to my healing.
I think it will add more comparisons in my brain.

Groot,

I fully appreciate that the A was a delusion but the actions were real. Again, I’m coming from a personal experience here where I needed every single detail. At the time my WW

Thought it was all very real. Fought me tooth and nail to keep AP in her life and how amazing he was and all that. I don’t know if your situation is the same, nor am I suggesting that you should do anything.

What I am saying is that you know what you need to heal. To me, when I didn’t have the questions answered the not knowing was worse. That it was real or fantasy didn’t matter, what actually happened did.

R sucks. Having to hear all the facts was one of my worst experiences of my life, and I’m not downplaying how long it took me to heal from it, about 9 months from full disclosure. But I did, and I know if I hadn’t it would have eaten me up inside and R never would have been possible. If I didn’t have the full knowledge, then D would have been my only choice.

Everyone is different here, but I wanted to add that it is possible to answer everything and heal and continue. A lot of therapists will say not to get the details, and I vehemently protest that mentality. A good therapist won’t sway you one or the other, and will provide support and guidance on how to get what you need. I quit my first IC because he insisted that I didn’t, and told me I was wrong. He also started preaching unmet needs crap in the same session.

You know yourself, and you know what you need, and if you don’t get that whatever form it is, then it may hurt you more in the long run. Before I got the full disclosure, I was a wreck, and doubted myself, but I finally came to the conclusion "to thine own self be true" and I knew that I needed what I needed. All the best to you no matter what direction you go.

One edit. You said who he was during the A wasn’t really him. Yes, it was. That was real and who he is and what he is fully capable of. True R can’t be built with the idea of “that wasn’t me” it has to be “this is who I am and I need to constantly work to be better” while the BS has to come to terms with “he isn’t who I thought he was, can he change on his own terms to be someone better”

[This message edited by HellIsNotHalfFull at 4:09 PM, Tuesday, May 21st]

Hellisnothalffull

I agree with you so much.
I have asked many many many details and the ones I was afraid of , I left for last.
One of the last ones was "Did you ever shower with her" When he told me yes, it hurt me more than a lot of the other answers, to me that is intimate.

I decided today to ask the big one via text because I needed to process the answer. It took me 4 months to get that one out and I am glad I asked it. I had always wondered if he was able to finish the first time with her because he couldn't with me or any of his past girlfriends on the first time. I asked him that question, the reason I didn't want to is because the forbidnenness of the affair could have played into him being able to, or the fact he got a vasectomy last year and there would be no pregnancy scare, the high could have been the reason, it may not have been because she was "great"
If that makes sense, there were contributing factors if he could have and I didn't need to feel less because of them. Embarrassing for me to put here but I guess we all have things we do that are embarrassing when asking questions.

He did answer and he said like with everyone else, he couldn't.
So I guess I will lay that to rest.

There is a lot of truth in what ink and HNHF are saying.

He might have been delusional, but you weren’t. His fantasy spilled all over your reality. And in many ways him telling you these things, this back and forth you are having, it’s valuable to both people.

I agree maybe you might not need to know does she always go down on him or what not. Only you can decide how deep you want to go. My husband didn’t want a lot of details, but suddenly in month ten he wanted some of them. He really didn’t ask the level of details I needed. But there was far less to cover in my affair. Mine had three physical encounters, his had probably something like over a hundred.

For me those questions were kind of like if O didn’t know the answers I feared I was making up worse ones in their place.

And as the ws divulging details (which he did want a lot, just less about specifics of the sex) it was important for me to see all of it coming to light. Hard to explain, but it allowed me to reflect both on my behavior and the damage it caused.

I suspect as the ws yes those details were not paramount, I actually knew that a lot of it was bullshit in the few months after it ended but as the bs it’s like you have to dissect it until it dissolves into I believe it’s needed for bs healing. You are wise maybe to decide how deep to go with the sexual details, that is entirely a personal thing.

I wanted to know those things and I do not regret that. I needed a picture painted for me, I needed to be able to “see it”. I made him describe a lot.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:40 PM, Tuesday, May 21st]

I think it’s also true that as BS’s, we actually DON’T know what it is that we need to heal. God knows I didn’t. I read books, I talked here, I went to therapists. Sisoon said incredibly mysterious shit that I had to read like 10 times to wrap my head around (you know what I’m talking about). It’s like if you had cancer or something, just because we have the ailment it really doesn’t mean that we know how to cure it. So even in that, give yourself grace. Take some small steps, trust your first instinct and then observe what helps you and what hurts you. There is an element of this of finding your way thru a maze blindfolded. It’s fucking hard, but you can do it.

Groot, My wish for you is that you stop beating yourself up. Just accept your imperfections and move on.

We all have to find our own path to healing. Yours apparently is via asking a lot of questions. Some people may not need as many questions as you do, but that is just normal variation among human beings. Actually, I interrogated my W for weeks, I'm sure. It was probably months, but I'm not sure of that. That's what I needed, and it's OK. You need answers to your questions. That's OK, too.

My reco is to assume you're within the range of normality and that you're as loving, lovable, and capable as pretty much everyone else.

You've been traumatized. You're doing your best to recover. That's all we can expect of ourselves. (I'd send a slightly different message if you wrote about self-harm or harming others, but you don't do that.) Notice the support you get from SIers. You've moved people. You've connected with people. You are a person people here want to know. Think about that - you've been accepted because you've been honest. People like the real you.

The next step is to like and trust yourself. Instead of thinking you're screwing up, give yourself a lot of kudos for doing what you need to do.

*****

There were questions that scared me. I knew those were the ones I needed to ask. The big ones: 1) Do you love me? 2) Are you in love with me? 3) Will you commit to monogamy going forward? A single 'No' would have ended our M.

*****

We ask questions for a number of reasons. Needing to know if there's a deal killer in the A is one of them.

More important, IMO: answers help demonstrate honesty and remorse. Asking the same question from different POVS test consistency and honesty. Any honest technique that helps distinguish between truth and lie is fair to use, IMO, as long as it's honest - I'm not a fan of, say, catfishing or other trickery. Every answer is a test of truthfulness.

Every honest answer does a little bit to rebuild the bonds between BS & WS, Every honest answer helps the WS take responsibility for themself. Every honest answer does a little bit to rebuild trust. IMO, it takes thousands of bond-rebuilding, trust-rebuilding actions to rebuild the bonds and trust. The questions that start on d-day begin the rebuilding process. That's so even if the answers hurt, IMO.

Or not, of course - every dishonest answer helps the BS detach from an unremorseful WS....

We're 13 years out, and occasionally I ask a new question. For the past 10-11 years, I don't ask my question unless I think doing so will have a positive outcome, but at first, I asked whatever I wanted to ask, when the question occurred to me, and I asked however many times I wanted to ask.

*****

Sometimes, especially when I had a hard time finding a positive outcome, Sometimes I asked a question because of what I was feeling. What worked then was talking about what I felt with my W. That, too, tested her - it was an issue we had to resolve. Her helping was positive for R. If she hadn't helped it would have been negative.

*****

...if "we" have a problem - how is bringing another person in to YOUR life helping US?

The 'if' is important here. The WS doesn't cheat because of a 'we' problem. They cheat because of an 'I' problem.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:47 PM, Tuesday, May 21st]

Yes, I sure didn't know what anyone was talking about when I first found this site. I was really really early in like weeks from the last disclosure and I wont lie, I was OVERWHELMED and then hearing all these strangers tell me things that I didnt think were true (that now I see was mostly true). When i was first betrayed I wanted to stick my head in the sand and believe that he was remorseful from day 1 and very clearly he wasn't. Did he feel bad, yes? Was it enough for him to start changing ? No. That took months of me being here.

I do agree, I am not sure I know what I need to heal, I do know that some questions he has answered were worse than what I imagined and others were not. I know I would rather know than not know but like Hikingout said, I need to really think about what would help me and what would hurt me.
I have asked a lot of things and i am sure I will continue , I know he left work for her, I know he saw her on our sons bday, I know that she came to one of his concerts that his children and i were at, then when we left he went to her house.
I know he saw her the day after my dads stroke... I mean all of these are still very very raw for me and the triggers are brutal. I am learning to sit with the pain better each and every day, maybe I need to digest what I already know and see what is still there lingering after.

I am learning to sit with the pain better each and every day, maybe I need to digest what I already know and see what is still there lingering after.

That sounds incredibly wise to me.

I second this ^^^

SISOON, I feel like you are a legend here and I can see why.

Thank you for the kind words , you sound like my therapist when you say this

Groot, My wish for you is that you stop beating yourself up. Just accept your imperfections and move on.

In almost every session my therapist tells me that I need to be kinder and more gentler to myself and I struggle with this. I have deleted all of social media, I have cut out people that I thought were my friends but found out they were toxic, I am joining a church support group every other week, and I am slowing way down in life. I stopped hosting so many get togethers, I stepped back and I am trying to just catch my breath from trying to be everything to everyone. There came a point recently where I realized I was trying too hard to be perfect, my kids always dressed nice, the house always spotless, always up and ready to have sex whenever he wanted and I have completely changed my thought process. I need to do what is right for me , I was also harboring resentment because I was doing too much for other people and I wasn't a nice person, I lashed out at everyone. My H even pointed out that overtime I became almost robotic, a shell of who I used to be and I just didn't have much joy to give to anyone.

Notice the support you get from SIers. You've moved people. You've connected with people. You are a person people here want to know. Think about that - you've been accepted because you've been honest. People like the real you.

This has touched my soul. I really appreciate that, I don't even know who the real me is anymore, I have lived for other people for so long I feel like I am lost. I am slowly rediscovering my interests and realizing things about me I didn't know before. I am learning that I would much rather be alone than be around my H at this point and he is the opposite, I feel like now I don't have to hold him so close in fear he will cheat it's almost like he doesn't even have to come home. It is a really hard realization. Maybe it will pass or maybe it won't. Don't get me wrong I enjoy outings with him and dinners but when its us at the house I would rather just leave and do something I want to do. I wonder if I am slowly breaking the codependency I had with him, I am not sure.

Every honest answer does a little bit to rebuild the bonds between BS & WS, Every honest answer helps the WS take responsibility for themself. Every honest answer does a little bit to rebuild trust. IMO, it takes thousands of bond-rebuilding, trust-rebuilding actions to rebuild the bonds and trust. The questions that start on d-day begin the rebuilding process. That's so even if the answers hurt, IMO.

IT DOES HURT , IT HURTS BAD but I have to agree. The more my H had to answer questions, the more he had to reflect on himself and the decisions he made the more I feel it broke him down. I can totally see why people say that if you don't address the ENTIRE A then it is rugsweeping. Which is what he was def trying to do at the beginning. I don't think he is trying to do that now but I do think he tries to lovebomb me when I am spiraling and I put that crap to a screeching hault. I will tell him how I feel and he will say "I love you so much" well thats great and all but back to my point. He will then talk about it but I think he is human and he has had a lot to face these past 7 months too.... it is exhausting for him even if he is the one that effed up.

The next step is to like and trust yourself. Instead of thinking you're screwing up, give yourself a lot of kudos for doing what you need to do.

I think I have placed my value too much on what other people think and saw of me, this is a huge goal I have for myself and I think once I learn to love myself again and discover who I am I will be in a better place. R or not.

Wouldn’t you know this evening at the gym I came across some of the most relatable lyrics.

“”And what you don't know, it won't hurt you

And what you don't know will save you from some pain

But if I could choose I'd let it hurt you

'Cause there's something bout life in the pain

Yeah there's something inside you starting

Like there's a fight coming your way

But there'll be no fists you'll be throwing

Just some words you got to say

And you'll scream for our repentance

Or you'll hide behind what's fake

But there ain't nothing to forgiveness

And you give as freely as you take

Things happen for a reason I guess. The universe speaks to me through music, it’s my love language. “

[This message edited by Groot1988 at 12:54 AM, Wednesday, May 22nd]

Things happen for a reason I guess. The universe speaks to me through music, it’s my love language.

You and me both Glad the universe love bombed you tonight.

Thanks Ink.