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We're in the early weeks of reconciliation. It's been about 6 weeks since dd so very early doors still. I think tonight I'm struggling a little with managing my expectations of WH. We had talked two days ago about planning a date,a trip to the cinema and he advised he would take the lead on it and arrange for his parents to babysit. And then never mentioned it again. I knew he'd forgotten so tonight I brought it up and he confirmed he'd forgotten. When I explained that this was upsetting to me, he said okay I hear what you're saying. But didn't apologise. So I asked him if he felt I was being fair and if he could see where I was coming from and if he agreed with me and he said that he did, so then I asked why he didn't apologise. And now I feel like I've both nagged him to take me out, and had to ask for an apology (which to me makes it moot).

I'm trying very hard not to do the work for him, but I'm also trying to be honest and not treat him like a mind reader.

We have a very small child and I've been clear with him that I need reassurance, affection and for him to be showing me through action that he wants to be with me and this feels like a huge step backwards when we're already very fragile.

I'm trying not to read too much into it but equally I'm hurt and I want to be realistic that I know he's working a lot and is exhausted a lot, but equally that's life and him not stepping up and investing in our relationship is a contributing factor to his withdrawal and subsequent EA.

How do I find the balance?

I think I feel added pressure at the moment because I'm coming 36, we'd been planning another child this year and yet having our son a year and a half ago was a major contributing factor to our relationship going on the rocks and WH coping with all the change and added stress (it was a very difficult pregnancy for me physically and quite traumatic for both of us at times) by withdrawing and taking up an EA.

He told me the other night that he wants to have a second child in the next 5 years as per our original plan and while I desperately want a second and know I'm essentially on a clock now to be able to do this, I'm terrified of what that would mean, if we'd be able to reconcile in time, if I'd resent him if we couldn't and if we did feel things were good enough to try again for another, what if we were wrong. I was really shocked to hear him say that because he started his EA the week our son was born which to me would suggest that he wasn't coping or content with having a child, and yet he's the most involved and invested dad you'll ever meet. It's so hard to understand that he can be both things at once.

I guess what I'm asking is how I navigate reconciliation appropriately, while also navigating a ticking biological clock. And how I manage expectations of him, when to accept that he's human and may forget things at times and when to worry that he's not taking reconciliation seriously. In some ways I feel like he'd stepped so far back from our relationship that it's almost like he's making the most basic effort now because by contrast that seems like he's doing something. But really is that enough because I'm not sure if it is for me? Or do I need to manage my thinking and accept that life is busy and I need to be more realistic in what his effort needs to look like? For example, I told him that I explored in IC that in the mornings I often wake up and feel insecure due to dreams etc and my therapist recommended he does something in the morning to make me feel appreciated to break that cycle of feeling triggered all day. So now he gives me a kiss and actually says goodbye before he leaves for work. But to me, that's just what he should have been doing this whole time and reassurance should maybe be something extra? But that's maybe not reasonable on my part!

I understand how you feel.

You want "something" from him that shows his love.

Something above and beyond what his usual stuff is. Not what he just "should" do.

I have been there, and I cycle back through it, too, from time to time as we go through recovery.

Here’s what I am learning about this.

The things I think of as what we "should do" to show we love someone happen all day long, every day. They are small things, really. Like doing laundry, or helping make the bed, or picking up something for the other on the way home from work.

In times of stress, we might do them, we might not, or we might go overboard and do way too much - making them almost meaningless in the process.

For example, if acts of service are something we do to show love, we might bring a cup of coffee to our partner in the morning. But when we have cheated on them, we might think that partner just wants us to leave them alone, so we don’t. Or, we bring the coffee, then a donut, then the paper, then some flowers, and run a warm bath….it’s too much and the partner sees it as fake.

At the early stages of recovery, I was watching closely for these acts, and my WH was doing way too much - love bombing - and I asked him to please stop. I actually told him to stop being nice, I couldn’t take it anymore. He said he didn’t know what to do, he just wanted to do things to help fix what he broke. Acts of service is what he knows to do. I asked for MY love language, and he’s striking a better blend now.

I was also very, very hung up on the things he wrote to his EA in his emails and texts. He has never written things like that to me, and I have been crushed over this. I recently wrote a letter and spoke about this at length to him. In his letter back, he talked about this aspect of the EA, and then he wanted to talk more and did.

He seemed able to express love easily in words to her, and not to me. This bothered me. In his letter to me, he talked about how this came about. He said that he was mentally "back in time", playing a role. And that role was a fantasy, not real, not himself. It was a role of himself as a "what if" in another time, another place, another life. He was using her, and she was using him. He was using her to try for sex with her. As it turns out, she was using him because she wanted my life - she wanted my life, my kids, my husband, and is angry she will never have it. She told me this when I talked to her.

I guess what I am learning is that what I’m wanting from love isn’t really what I "should" be wanting?

I seemed to be wanting everything he "should be doing", and he was giving me that, way too much of it, and I sure didn’t want that.
Then I wanted what he gave HER, only it turns out that what he gave her was fake - part fantasy, part hope, part manipulation - and I for sure don’t want that.

Now I know what I want.

I want our love. Just that.

Hi Lost, I'm sorry you find yourself here. Your story and many of the feelings you're having absolutely resonates with me. I don't have any answers for you - 6 weeks is SOOOOOOO early - but I thought I'd share some of my story.

My husband's A took place while we were trying (unsuccessfully) to get pregnant with our first child. I actually remember having to take a pregnancy test a week post-d-day having incredibly mixed feelings over it. It had been 8-9 months we'd been trying and so I was already fearing that I wasn't able to get pregnant (the fact that we'd waited a little late didn't help) and after learning of the infidelity it also felt like the marriage was over - so it almost felt like my last chance and also the very worst timing in the entire world. One of my common resentments in R was that his A might have stolen from me, my chance to become a biological mother. I desperately wanted a baby but getting pregnant early on in R was a giant ENORMOUS risk that felt incredibly reckless - particularly for me, someone who had waited 10 years to even get married because I wanted to be sure and ready. I eventually had to come to the decision (and the headspace) that I was accepting and would be okay being a single parent if R didn't work out. This was absolutely something we discussed in the early days of R before I eventually did become pregnant. Fortunately R went well for us.

When it was time to try for baby #2 a few years later though, it brought back a lot of similar feelings and triggers for me. Despite the fact that I was confident in our marriage at that point, it brought up some resentments about the way that my first pregnancy had come about. By that point, we had really spent a lot of time delving into whys and I understood how fears/hang-ups related to parenthood and growing up stemming from some FOO issues had absolutely played a role in my husband's A, so it put me on edge. Like I said, I don't have any answers for you, but it sounds like the idea of pregnancy is equally fraught and interconnected with your spouse's A for you both and you don't have the luxury of putting off another child indefinitely while you wait to see if your marriage recovers. 2-5 years to recovery is a long time when you're 36.

In some ways I feel like he'd stepped so far back from our relationship that it's almost like he's making the most basic effort now because by contrast that seems like he's doing something.

I wouldn't strive for balance right now. There is a time and a place for balance but 6 weeks out isn't it. You deserve more than the bare minimum - please don't try to talk yourself into settling for anything less than the marriage you both want. You'll see it said here and it can feel sort of artificial when you have a history with someone, but R really is about building a brand new marriage. It really is a helpful way to think about it. With that said, there is probably isn't anything he can do right now that is actually going to be able to make you feel the way you want to feel - whole/secure/safe/cherished - the way you are feeling right now is normal/natural in the wake of betrayal. That doesn't mean you are asking too much though, or that he shouldn't be trying to ease your insecurities. Effort alone isn't enough, but it is the best indicator right now of whether he's a good candidate for R. There is no way of knowing whether he can/will be able to sustain that effort over time (and R is a marathon, not a sprint), but if he's already slacking now, it seems unlikely he's going to be able to make it in the future.

We had talked two days ago about planning a date, a trip to the cinema and he advised he would take the lead on it and arrange for his parents to babysit. And then never mentioned it again. I knew he'd forgotten so tonight I brought it up and he confirmed he'd forgotten. When I explained that this was upsetting to me, he said okay I hear what you're saying. But didn't apologize.

Doing what he says he's going to do is incredibly important for building trust. I suspect that that is part of the reason that this is rubbing you the way that it is.

This is a big red flag to me, especially since your d-day was so soon after your child was born.

I think it's important for R to set requirements that are meaningful and measurable or observable. I definitely think that requiring the WS to desire to be with the BS and to show that desire are important requirements.

Making and keeping dates is one way of showing desire. Doing what one says one will do is a requirement of any partnership. Your WS failed in both requirements. How important is this to you? For me, if my W did this repeatedly, she wouldn't be my W for long.

My reco is to make those failures explicit and to put your WS on notice that these are requirements for R - that R won't work unless he shows desire and willingness to meet his commitments. I'd also recommend asking if there are things you can do together to make it easier to meet commitments.

R is a long road, and not an easy one. If your WS can't do what he says he will do now, so early in R, how can you trust him to be there for you until the natural end of one of your lives?

You might consider backing off from R and telling your WS you won't commit to R until he shows himself to be a good candidate.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:12 PM, Friday, February 2nd]

He needs to do what he says he will do. It’s okay to say ‘I’ll not get chance to organise the cinema this weekend but I’ll sort it for next weekend, can we do x instead when baby is in bed’ Then he must do it. Why does he promise and then forget? Is it because he usually gets away with breaking promises? Or does he have an issue with memory loss and forgot to write it down? Or did he think his hit air was enough to placate you and make you smile?

If his words mean nothing EVEN TO HIMSELF how can you reconcile and trust him again?

He is paying lip service. It’s easy to promise - meaningless words uttered in the moment - but the action is carrying it out.

I have said this before but several months in my husband said ‘I am doing everything right now’ (implying being honest and upfront, reliable, thoughtful was good behaviour). I reminded him those aspects of marriage are ‘the bare minimum you expect from a husband who willingly made vows’. I then congratulated him on now being a ‘bare minimum spouse’. It’s not a moniker I’d like to have. Initially it upset him. He has quoted it a few times since when he’s realised he is being bare minimum.

You weren’t asking him to be a mind reader. He said yes to the cinema date and then didn’t follow through. Look back over your relationship does he regularly say thing he doesnt follow through on? Talk is cheap. Does he say things he doesn’t mean? Does he normally put effort in? I cannot fault my spouse on the effort side of things over the years - gifts, night wakings, housework, sharing - he totally pulls his weight. But I don’t think pulling his weight in terms of reconciliation is housework and kids - that’s bare minimum spouse.

Why does he now feel he is ready for another child? What’s changed in such a short period of time? I’d be watching and exploring if him promising another baby is to get you to accept and ‘get over it’.

Did he blame your pregnancy for him cheating? Why did he allow himself to break his own vows? Why does Change and stress mean to him that it is okay to lie and sneak about and develop a secret relationship? Presumably you were stressed and going through tremendous change but elected not to cheat? Reading this post I’m not convinced he’s doing the work tbh.

You say he works a lot , and? If he was single he would have to work and do all his own housework, plus he would no doubt find time to date and go out with friends. Like millions of single people and single parents do over the world. He had enough time to work and develop an emotional relationship with this person. So he has spare time. Again think about this hard. Is he even being a bare minimum adult?

He didn’t even apologise - does he usually have issues with apologies? Why? If I forgot to take someone to the cinema I would say sorry - it’s bare minimum humaning.

You don’t need to answer my many questions (you can if you want of course) but you need to ask yourself them. You peel away layers and see who the hell you married.

I used to understand my spouse found certain conversations hard, he would live in his head a lot, I never pushed him to talk as I didn’t want to make him uncomfortable, I really cared about him and could see he found it hard - tough shit now. I expect him to live with the discomfort of speaking.

I think sometimes it’s the cheater who doesn’t invest in the relationship and then they moan they don’t get what they ‘need’. They settled for comfort over discomfort but discomfort helps you connect.

Saying good bye and a kiss is bare minimum spouse in my opinion.

I am further out from you but I know I deserve more than BMS (bare minimum spousing) and so do you.

Thank you all so much for your replies, there's so much food for thought for me in there.

I think communication is a huge issue for him and always has been. When I challenged him today about forgetting, he said that he hadn't actually forgotten he just was really worried about asking his parents about babysitting because a close relative is at end of life care and he was worried they'd say yes, but not really be in the headspace for it. But instead of just telling me that because he was worried I'd be angry (which I wouldn't have been) he didn't say anything and worried about it in his own head. I do think he's getting really up in his own mind about it all and his IC keeps telling him he's already doing all the right things, which I'm not sure is true and to be fair neither does he.

I really resonated with the idea of building something new, I think maybe what I'm looking for is trying to rebuild what we had rather than accept that's gone permanently and what we create now will be something different. From what he's said, it sounds like he's so scared of doing the wrong thing or scared of being rejected by me if he tries to do something nice that he's ending up doing the bare minimum because those things seem 'safe' but I really need him to push past that in a tangible way. And absolutely I'd have been fine if he'd just explained that things hadn't gone to plan and suggested something different- i do try very hard to be open and reasonable towards him even when I'm upset because I do want to move forwards, but the fact he just hadn't communicated with me and hadn't followed through was the major problem point.

Apologies are hard for him. He's apologised obviously for what's happened (and apologised well with no excuses and taken full accountability for his decisions and actions) but on the day to day, he does struggle to say sorry even when he will otherwise admit he's been in the wrong and will acknowledge my feelings about whatever has come up. But the actual words I'm sorry seem to be difficult for him to go to without being asked which to me defeats the purpose. It's something we will need to talk through further I think.

I don't think that his wanting another baby in the next 5 years is lip service, it's something we've always talked about I just had presumed that given how the timing of his EA had coincided with ds being born and then continuing for the first year of ds life until I found out, that it wouldn't be something he felt he'd coped well with and would therefore be wary of more. Because 2 can only be more intense than 1!

It's difficult with the climate where we live things have got extremely expensive and childcare is a massive financial burden as is accommodation. One that would be manageable with two wages and only one household to run, but I'm under no illusion as to how financially tight it would be for me to manage by myself with one child, let alone two. And while I very much want my son to have a sibling,I also Want him to have a good quality of life and be able to live comfortably as well. So that's a huge factor in my decision to attempt to reconcile, but would be a massive factor in having another child. So I'm not sure that being okay with being a single parent if I did fall pregnant again would really be a way of taking the pressure off our reconciliation if that makes sense.

My husband used counselling to have more smoke blown up his arse. More to self validate than work on himself. Counsellors vary considerably and I think they don’t have to be qualified or registered in some parts of the world.

So what is he doing about his inability to communicate? Very gently He was able to communicate effectively enough to run a second relationship. So he can communicate when he wants to presumably. Why say he’ll organise something but then choose just not to do it?

I recognise this as my husband is the same. Afraid of rejection. Afraid to put himself out there. Afraid I’ll dump him if he says the wrong thing. So instead he stays safe and gives up intimacy for safety. The irony is I knew most of these flaws I just didn’t realise he was a liar who thought it was okay to sneak around. I was okay with the flaws. Now I’m not. I expect him to talk even if it’s painful.

Lie vs Talk - your spouse chose lie over the perceived pain of talking - that’s pretty odd when you really think about it. Over a cinema visit.

If he had said ‘hey my parents are really struggling emotionally. I’ve found a great recipe, can we cook together then watch that new film on tv/I’ll read to you and rub your feet/do that yoga together that you love etc etc - would that have been enough?

So why choose lie? Why is lying more comfortable than a conversation.

He says he chooses what he receives to be the safe option. A lie. He really isn’t choosing well. He’s choosing to do the bare minimum and he is therefore choosing the unsafe option, assuming he wants to reconcile. He’s risking you slowly checking out. Day by day until you say Fuck it I can’t be bothered with this liar who can’t say what he is thinking. To me this is an example of when he needs to take what he presumably sees as a risk. ‘Sorry parents struggling, can we do x?’

I’m sorry but I still don’t think he is doing the work. It’s hard to do the work. It appears that many cheaters can’t/don’t want to do it. If he’s not sure about his counsellor has he said anything to them or even thought about sacking them?

Hello Lost.

I think you have a right to be hesitant about getting pregnant again with your husband behaving the way he does. I also understand your desire to have a second child, but at 36 years old your eggs are already considered "geriatric", if you can believe that?

If I were in your place and could afford it financially I would freeze my eggs right now. That way it will give you time to see if you are able to reconcile. If you are healthy and physically fit, there’s no reason that you can’t carry a child even into your 50’s. It’s just our eggs that have an early expiration date. I just thought I’d throw that option out there for you to consider.

I’m wishing you all the best as you try to figure this out.

When I challenged him today about forgetting, he said that he hadn't actually forgotten he just was really worried about asking his parents about babysitting because a close relative is at end of life care and he was worried they'd say yes, but not really be in the headspace for it. But instead of just telling me that because he was worried I'd be angry (which I wouldn't have been) he didn't say anything and worried about it in his own head.

That's NOT a communication problem/failure.

Rather, he let his fear keep him from meeting his commitment. His unwillingness to set boundaries led him into his A, and his unwillingness to set boundaries hasn't changed much, if at all.

It's true that it would have been better for him to communicate his fear before he agreed to ask his parents to baby-sit, but letting the fear - probably a fear of consequences of not pleasing the person in front of him - is the problem that needs to be solved.

I recommend as strongly as possible not letting this pass without getting a commitment to change from him. R won't work unless he does change. And if he does change for the better, he'll be the primary beneficiary, but you and everyone else around him will benefit, too.

And if you can't bring yourself to confront this now, developing the strength you feel is lacking will benefit you and everyone around you, too.

Fear kills R. Fear keeps relationships from being all they can be. Courage is, as a former SIer used to say, saddling up and getting it done even though you're afraid.

I believed my husband had a communication problem.

What he had was the refusal to communicate.

He would have conversations in his own head with me, decide what I would say or how I would react, decide he didn’t like what I would say or react, decide that he would do what he wanted instead of talk to me, and never communicate anything.

That’s a CHOICE.

We have talked about this.

I told him he freezes me out. He asked me what I meant by that. I told him that when he doesn’t actually have a conversation with ME - and instead decides what I will or won’t say - he has taken away any agency I have to speak for myself. I told him that is the ultimate in being a controlling spouse - he is even THINKING FOR ME.

He has even frozen me out of thinking for myself. He won’t even speak words to me, he does all of that for me. Thanks, but no thanks.

He was shocked by this.

I told him that he could just be married alone, if that was how he wanted to go about having a wife.

Seems like the conversations have changed quite a bit up in here since then.