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Wayward Side :
No trust/No love

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jb3199 ( member #27673) posted at 3:38 AM on Thursday, August 17th, 2023

During the conversation, my BS said, "When there's no trust, there's no love."

And if we apply the reverse, it would sound like "When there's total trust, there's total love."

It sounds like your BH is somewhere in between. My guess would actually be closer to the 'total love' than 'no love' just based on your description. His real lack of trust isn't so much of cheating again as it is getting a satisfactory description of his marriage. It's really more of a 'him' issue than a 'your' issue. Not saying that he is wrong to feel the way that he feels; it's just that the only one who is going to give himself peace of mind is.......himself.

You can surely help. I would bet that ANY wayward type behaviors(resentment, deception, DEFENSIVENESS) are huge obstacles for him to overcome. you can't undo decades of wayward behaviors, but you can make a solid effort to never let those behaviors reemerge....even for a moment. It is that instantaneous snapshot of poor behavior that will stay ingrained in his mind.....not the weeks/months/years that you didn't exhibit these. It may seem unfair, and impossible to overcome, but it is the reality that has been made through prior actions. And the more authentic you become, and the less that these poor behaviors ever come out, the easier it will be for your BS to keep processing his reality.....hopefully, in a more positive light.

BH-50s
WW-50s
2 boys
Married over 30yrs.

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary PuckettD-Day(s): EnoughAccepting that I can/may end this marriage 7/2/14

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Lurkingsoul12 ( member #82382) posted at 6:52 AM on Thursday, August 17th, 2023

It's really more of a 'him' issue than a 'your' issue.

Very poor statement. His lack of trust in her was caused by her infidelity and decades long TT. Some of the lies she said were really disturbing. It made him question everything about his marriage and his wife. His reality was gradually poisoned by her actions and lies for decades. So, yeah, it's more of 'her' problem. By saying it's his problem, you are blaming the victim for not getting over it fast enough. Remember, she has been lying to him for decades. As per her claim, she stopped lying only recently. So, he got a chance to heal and recover only recently.

There is no shortcut to gain his trust and love back. The only way is a long way. She needs to stop lying or behave in any suspicious way. Honesty and complete transparency are the keys. He is now a sick husband that she poisoned for years. She wants him to heal. Well, then she needs to tend to him as she tends to a sick patient. It needs enormous patience, determination, and love towards her husband.

Of course, husband,too, need to work on his own to heal. His difficulty at present is understandable. His last dday was only recent. Her affair happened many decades ago, but he is still going through ddays. So, obviously, it's difficult for him to heal. Give him time and lots of love. He needs to believe what he is seeing now is real and not another facade that will get shattered by another dday. Make sure your change is permanent and authentic. Eventually, he will see it.

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 thatwilldo (original poster member #59326) posted at 4:54 PM on Thursday, August 17th, 2023

Stillconfused2022, you wrote:

I am feeling a bit skeptical of WSs right now so I have to admit I can’t know for sure if you are sincere. But, if you are I give you a lot of credit for having a lot of kind thoughtful considerations regarding your spouse’s trauma. You don’t sound defensive which is a huge plus. I have to admit it felt like a bit of a gut punch when you said you decided to come clean on your 50th anniversary.

I can understand your skepticism about my honesty and, of course the 50th anniversary revelations were a huge gut punch to my BS. I must say also that I was very defensive for years. I regret so much not coming out with all of the facts of the affair. That and my not taking responsibility have weighed very heavy on my BS's heart.

Thank you for your thoughts.

I went to the I Can Relate forum and found a mention of "trauma bonding" that may have something to do with my dysfunction. My AP was a very bad person, but then, so was I.

Thanks for your help.

[This message edited by thatwilldo at 5:06 PM, Thursday, August 17th]

Don't do as I did. Do as I say.
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jb3199 ( member #27673) posted at 5:12 PM on Friday, August 18th, 2023

Very poor statement. His lack of trust in her was caused by her infidelity and decades long TT. Some of the lies she said were really disturbing. It made him question everything about his marriage and his wife. His reality was gradually poisoned by her actions and lies for decades. So, yeah, it's more of 'her' problem. By saying it's his problem, you are blaming the victim for not getting over it fast enough. Remember, she has been lying to him for decades. As per her claim, she stopped lying only recently. So, he got a chance to heal and recover only recently.

Nobody is victim blaming here. I don't know where you're getting that. Nowhere is it stated that she's done all that she could, and he needs to get his act together.

He has had his agency since discovery. He hasn't had the truth, but it has been his choice to stay for whatever reasons he has chosen. If he wanted out, he has had that option. He didn't have to put up with her lies; he didn't need to put up with her defensiveness, and other wayward behaviors. Truth is, she has been a lousy candidate for R, and would have been divorced if it were many other member's here in BH's shoes. But he has chosen to stay, and that is his right.

So what happens if/when he does have the entire truth, spread out over decades of lies/deceit/withholding of information? It's HIS job to accept it or not. He is the only one who is going to reconcile things in his own head. She can definitely help, but ultimately he has to make peace(or not) with the information he has. If he doesn't choose to ever trust her again, I can certainly understand that, but it is still his choice.

BH-50s
WW-50s
2 boys
Married over 30yrs.

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary PuckettD-Day(s): EnoughAccepting that I can/may end this marriage 7/2/14

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 thatwilldo (original poster member #59326) posted at 5:19 PM on Friday, August 18th, 2023

jb3199, you said:

You can surely help. I would bet that ANY wayward type behaviors(resentment, deception, DEFENSIVENESS) are huge obstacles for him to overcome. you can't undo decades of wayward behaviors, but you can make a solid effort to never let those behaviors reemerge....even for a moment.

I sure think you're right and I have been very defensive in the past and I also engaged in gaslighting...trying to make him feel guilty for questioning me when I was still lying. I've worked hard at developing honesty, patience and empathy.

Thanks for your thinking on this.

Lurkingsoul12, you said:

There is no shortcut to gain his trust and love back. The only way is a long way. She needs to stop lying or behave in any suspicious way. Honesty and complete transparency are the keys. He is now a sick husband that she poisoned for years. She wants him to heal. Well, then she needs to tend to him as she tends to a sick patient. It needs enormous patience, determination, and love towards her husband.

All very true.I stole his choice from him about how to live his life when I lied to him about my affair and our life together. By that I mean, I kept him from making an informed decision about whether or not to stay married to me. Sometimes he still says he doesn't know who he's married to.

Also, I'm trying to help him by helping myself. Thanks for your insightful thoughts.

Don't do as I did. Do as I say.
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 thatwilldo (original poster member #59326) posted at 10:27 PM on Monday, August 21st, 2023

jb3199, you said:

He has had his agency since discovery. He hasn't had the truth, but it has been his choice to stay for whatever reasons he has chosen. If he wanted out, he has had that option. He didn't have to put up with her lies; he didn't need to put up with her defensiveness, and other wayward behaviors. Truth is, she has been a lousy candidate for R, and would have been divorced if it were many other member's here in BH's shoes. But he has chosen to stay, and that is his right.

When you say, "He has had his agency since discovery" and "He didn't have to put up with her lies...defensiveness and other wayward behaviors." I have to disagree because, how do you know when you're being lied to? I'm afraid I was a very good liar and I was good at blaming others and gaslighting. I think he wanted to find reasons to forgive me. Then we rug-swept for years. No, I take responsibility for stealing his agency during those years of lying.

Don't do as I did. Do as I say.
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Lurkingsoul12 ( member #82382) posted at 11:22 PM on Monday, August 21st, 2023

jb3199:

I was not talking about whether he should believe that she has given him the complete truth or not. On that account, your take is partially right.

He has had his agency since discovery. He hasn't had the truth, but it has been his choice to stay for whatever reasons he has chosen.

Are you sure his agency was fully restored while he was TT'd, gaslighted and manipulated after dday?

Are you sure he fully knew he didn't know what he supposed to know when he chose to reconcile?? I mean, there are plenty examples where BS thought they had the whole truth, and then they go for reconciliation only to witness another dday. On second dday, BS believes now they have whole truth and continues with reconciliation only to witness another dday. The cycle repeats a few more times until all trust is gone. May be that's what happened here. May be this relation is on its last dday and won't survive another.

But I was not talking about TRUTH in my previous post here because that isn't the focus of this thread. Truth isn't the issue here.

I am talking about him trusting her. The issue here, as per the title of this thread, is about the TRUST. Your post clearly mentions this issue is more of his problem than hers(this sounded like you were blaming him for not trusting her enough by now). I believe the opposite of you. Every BS who has opted for reconciliation didn't trust their WS immediately after dday. They CHOSE reconciliation but not TRUST. You can't CHOOSE to trust. Trust needs to be earned. WS needs to earn trust through desired, required, consistent, and permanent changes in their personality and boundaries. Just because he wants to reconcile with her doesn't mean he has to immediately choose to trust her without her having to earn it. If that was the case, then no BS would try reconciliation.

Of course, my take could be completely different if last and final dday was 10, 15 or 30 years ago. Because then she would have enough time to win his trust back, and he would have enough time to heal and trust her again. Right now, it is more of her issue than his issue. Right now, she should focus on addressing her flaws and winning back his trust. He should focus on healing himself and reach a stage where he could forgive her and try to have a new and healthy marriage with her.

Sorry for T/j. I wish you both well.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 7:49 PM, Friday, August 25th]

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Lurkingsoul12 ( member #82382) posted at 11:35 PM on Monday, August 21st, 2023

thatwilldo:

I know your situation sucks. It's not an easy path for you or him. Give him love, comfort, and support. I hope it's not too late for your marriage.

I have read many stories here where, even after a horrible betrayal, cruel treatment, and multiple days, couples went on and had a successful reconciliation. So, it's not an impossible outcome. I hope yours is one of those stories. Good luck.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 11:39 PM, Monday, August 21st]

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 thatwilldo (original poster member #59326) posted at 7:34 PM on Tuesday, August 22nd, 2023

Lurkingsoul12,

I don't mind the t/j. It all helps me to think about my situation and also my BS's pain. We've had some good conversations based on this thread. Thank you for your help.

Don't do as I did. Do as I say.
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jb3199 ( member #27673) posted at 9:34 PM on Tuesday, August 22nd, 2023

thatwilldo, let me break this down:

When you say, "He has had his agency since discovery" and "He didn't have to put up with her lies...defensiveness and other wayward behaviors." I have to disagree because, how do you know when you're being lied to? I'm afraid I was a very good liar and I was good at blaming others and gaslighting.

Once he discovered the affair, he now had his agency. By NO MEANS did he have the truth, yet alone a reasonable story of your affair. But he wasn't living the lie of being in a monogamous, faithful marriage. Should he have to fight his partner tooth and nail to get the truth? Nope, but he shouldn't have had to worry about his partner cheating in the first place. Now that he knows what his partner is capable of, he has to decide his best path forward.

I think he wanted to find reasons to forgive me. Then we rug-swept for years.

Yes, that is exactly what it sounds like. His choice, based on the facts at hand. How deep did he dig? Or did he choose to just kind of go along, and hope that things work out on their own?


No, I take responsibility for stealing his agency during those years of lying.

Yes, you were trying to take away his agency. And for some of it, you were 'successful'. This is why I said that you were a poor candidate for reconciliation. But he has a responsibility, in my opinion, to do his due diligence if he wants to truly reconcile. He chose to accept your lies without verifying validity. He chose to accept your anger and defensiveness, instead of making that a hard 'no-go' boundary. He chose to rugsweep. They are HIS CHOICES. It's not my place to say it's wrong, but I do believe it is fair to say he has to assume responsibility for his choices. This is what I meant in my original post to you about being a 'him' issue. It's his issue to decide if he chooses to trust you or not. That's not a fault. That's a choice.

BH-50s
WW-50s
2 boys
Married over 30yrs.

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary PuckettD-Day(s): EnoughAccepting that I can/may end this marriage 7/2/14

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 thatwilldo (original poster member #59326) posted at 4:58 PM on Wednesday, August 23rd, 2023

jb3199,

I can agree with you that my BS made his choices and now has to live with them. As I've said before, he regrets the rug-sweeping. So do I. You're about 30 years younger than we are. Back then, I most likely would have been awarded custody of our children...just because I'm the mother. He grew up without a father and didn't want that for his children.

Also, attitudes were so different then. People kept things secret more. There was no SI or great books to help us.

Thanks for all of your thinking on this subject.

Don't do as I did. Do as I say.
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jb3199 ( member #27673) posted at 11:43 AM on Thursday, August 24th, 2023

Remember,

By no means am I saying that his choices were wrong. They were his to make, and only he can decide what seemed best for him.

And you are certainly correct---we are talking about an entirely different era, and many things that appear 'easy' today were literally unheard of decades ago.

Your BS regrets his rugsweeping. It sounds like he's owning his choices, and he is handling the effects. It doesn't sound like he is blaming the rugsweeping on you. It sounds like he is doing what he needs to do.

But I still stand by my opinion of the no love/no trust statement--He loves you much more than he trusts you. You can love without trust, but the depth of the love is most certainly affected by the level of trust. Only he can decide what levels of trust can be restored. HIS issue to deal with. But you can definitely help.

BH-50s
WW-50s
2 boys
Married over 30yrs.

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary PuckettD-Day(s): EnoughAccepting that I can/may end this marriage 7/2/14

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 thatwilldo (original poster member #59326) posted at 4:31 PM on Thursday, August 24th, 2023

jb3199,

Again, thank you for your thoughts.

Don't do as I did. Do as I say.
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Lurkingsoul12 ( member #82382) posted at 8:04 PM on Thursday, August 24th, 2023

This is for thatwilldo.

statement--He loves you much more than he trusts you. You can love without trust,

But not forever. The reason he still loves you is because that love was strongly built on trust and shared positive memories and experiences.

With trust, love can be unconditional. Without trust, love is always conditional. Without trust, love will only diminish as time goes by.

So, your only way is to try to build a positive and safe environment where he can create new and positive experiences and memories with you that will fuel his love and trust for you.

Remember, you are probably the only one who knows him better than anyone. You are probably the only one who has seen his vulnerable side and seen his worst days closer than one. He is your baby. Even though he is hurt by you, he needs you. He craves your love. He craves a safe and comfortable environment. He craves empathy from you. He wants you to feel what he has gone through post dday, the pain, and the trauma. He may not say it explicitly or in a very clear words, but it is what most BS desire in moments like this. He craves for your warmth. His inner child is scared and weak. The inner mother in you can comfort his inner child with love, affection, and care.

Of course, it's a two-way approach. He, too, has a part to play here. He should let you help him in building such space for both of you. He should take a leap of faith. Without this leap from him, you can't do much more. It may take some more time or some more positive proactive actions from you to make him take that leap.

I read a story on this forum where BH was sitting on his couch crying uncontrollably over his wife's infidelity. After his father's death, this was the second time he cried in his entire life. WW saw this, and she was heartbroken by the scene. She went to him and hugged him tightly. He wasn't expecting it. He said no. She didn't listen. He resisted her hug. She didn't listen. He tried to escape her hug a few more times, but he failed. She wouldn't listen. She didn't say a word. She gave him a tightest and most needed hug during one of his toughest days. Eventually, he surrendered to her. He stopped resisting and hugged her back. Both cried. The point is that it helped him. He mentioned in his post that it helped him a lot. Her inner mother hugged his inner child.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 7:47 PM, Friday, August 25th]

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DobleTraicion ( member #78414) posted at 1:08 PM on Friday, August 25th, 2023

Former BH here. Ive taken my time to reply as I wanted to be measured, thoughtful and on point.

Ive read your posts. I found what I think is your original post from 2017 btw so I have some broad strokes from you as to your betrayal and life with your BH. I feel so much empathy for him. Its hard to imagine the painful existence hes endured, albeit, as others have pointed out, at his own choice. A 2 YEAR betrayal along with the other interactions with men you mentioned (whatever that means). Living in the same home where the betrayal took place. Enduring the aftermath of this along with much minimizing and trickle truth for 4 or 5 decades if Im reading this right. Having the 50th anniversary of the reciting of your wedding vows turned into another Dday. Thats a lot of trauma. I really have no words to say other than solidarity to him. I endured 1 decade of that kind of torture and it about did me in. Oh, how I wish I could go back and talk with that younger version of me and kick that illusion of white knoght syndrome and lack of self worth out the door. I just didnt know what I didnt know. But I digress....

After mulling over your posts, Ive decided to hone in on one thing only and it is this:

I have, but he wants more than that. He wants to understand and for me to understand how I could have made the choices I made.

You are in your 70's, one decade ahead of me. You are still together and yet have the opportunity to give one final gift to yourself and to him. That gift is empathy.

When I read your words, I feel a distance. Like you're describing someone elses life. Oh, I see sympathy, but little empathy.

If this rings true to you upon reflection, then I challenge you to read everything you can get your hands on dealing with emapthy and how to be an empathetic spouse to your Betrayed-yet-Faithful-Husband and how to action that empathy in your dealings with him.

There is a well known poster here that came close to D after her betrayal and atrempted R. She and her BH were years into the R effort and his complaint was much the same. Her reflections and input were distant, sterile, lacking empathy. She then asked if she could read his posts here at SI. He agreed. She read them and they devastated her to the point that she had a complete mental/emotional breakdown. She was on complete overload with "emotional flooding". She recovered thankfully and one wise poster pointed out that the pain of that experience had built a bridge of emotional understanding that she had not had before. They went on to continue in R.

A lack of empathy has been admitted by many a wayward here and on other sites. A lack that contributed to the betrayal in the first place which makes sense, right? This same lack hinders and ends up sabotaging many R attempts. I can tell you from experience that my first wife's completee lack of empathy made R nearly impossible. Not sure she had an empathetic bone in her body and she never attempted to engengder that much needed trait.

Its not too late to work on this one facet and see if it bears fruit in your understanding of who you are and in your relationship with your BH.

Question for you. Has he ever written/journaled his experiences and feelings? Has he ever written you of those things? If he has journaled, would he let you read them? If not, maybe ask him to do so. Just a thought.

I am glad you are posting here. It shows me that you are still searching, still looking for answers, direction, and deeper understanding. (as am I btw). Keep it up.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 2:58 PM, Friday, August 25th]

"You'd figure that in modern times, people wouldn't feel the need to get married if they didn't agree with the agenda"

~ lascarx

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 thatwilldo (original poster member #59326) posted at 12:13 AM on Saturday, August 26th, 2023

Thank you, Lurkingsoul12. You said:

So, your only way is to try to build a positive and safe environment where he can create new and positive experiences and memories with you that will fuel his love and trust for you.

That's why I'm posting on SI and he says that it's helping him to know that I'm working on myself.

Don't do as I did. Do as I say.
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 thatwilldo (original poster member #59326) posted at 12:32 AM on Saturday, August 26th, 2023

DobleTraicion you said:

A lack of empathy has been admitted by many a wayward here and on other sites. A lack that contributed to the betrayal in the first place which makes sense, right? This same lack hinders and ends up sabotaging many R attempts. I can tell you from experience that my first wife's completee lack of empathy made R nearly impossible. Not sure she had an empathetic bone in her body and she never attempted to engengder that much needed trait.

You are certainly right that a lack of empathy contributed to my betrayal as did lack of self worth, a feeling of entitlement and a lack of appreciation for what I had. I've done lots of reading about empathy. Now I'm writing to help myself to understand my own messed-up past and to help others. I think, for right now, this will help me the most and my BS says it's helping him.

I appreciate your thinking on this. Your post, I know represents a lot of time and effort. It's very helpful to me and my BS.

Don't do as I did. Do as I say.
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 thatwilldo (original poster member #59326) posted at 5:10 PM on Saturday, August 26th, 2023

DobleTraicion, you asked:

Question for you. Has he ever written/journaled his experiences and feelings? Has he ever written you of those things? If he has journaled, would he let you read them? If not, maybe ask him to do so. Just a thought.

My BS is very outspoken. He feels no need to journal. We have frequent discussions of his feelings and mine about the past.

Don't do as I did. Do as I say.
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DobleTraicion ( member #78414) posted at 1:21 PM on Sunday, August 27th, 2023

Appreciate the responses and feedback TWD. I want to take your replies in reverse order.

My BS is very outspoken. He feels no need to journal. We have frequent discussions of his feelings and mine about the past.

Your BH being forthcoming/transparent about his thoughts and feelings is an absolute treasure trove for you to work with. So many Betrayeds shut down, have low EQ's and low CQ's to boot, leaving their Waywards desiring R very little to go off of. They live in a purgatory of sorts and its just awful.

Drilling down on this a bit further may be helpful. When he is this open how does it make you feel? Do you shut down or does it inspire you to reciprocate? Do shame and guilt spirals kick in and hinder your ability to respond in kind? Are you able to reach out to him, affirm his feelings and responses and give him further insight into your state of mind/being at that time? You neednt answer here, just some questions meant to help further growth in the pursuit of greater empathy.

As to your comment about his regret over not holding your feet to the fire, wow do I relate. I was way too nice. Took too much on myself. Suffered from serious WKS. Erroneous, "If its to be its up to me", thinking. Two books have helped me out a lot in that regard: "No More Mr Nice Guy" & "The Way of The Superior Man". I did a lot of really good therapy years later that helped me let go of this for the most part.

Now to this:

You are certainly right that a lack of empathy contributed to my betrayal as did lack of self worth, a feeling of entitlement and a lack of appreciation for what I had. I've done lots of reading about empathy. Now I'm writing to help myself to understand my own messed-up past and to help others. I think, for right now, this will help me the most and my BS says it's helping him.

I cant tell you how much I affirm this and encourage you to deepen your understanding. Empathy from a wayward is like water to the parched betrayed. If there is any hope for true R, empathy is an absolute necessity imo. It is the mortar, if you will, used to bind the bricks of rebuilding that which was demolished in tbe betrayal. And, as you now know, that rebuilding is a lifetime effort.

As an aside, I smiled wryly when I read this:

Also, attitudes were so different then. People kept things secret more. There was no SI or great books to help us.

Ain't that the truth! Decades ago this stuff hardly saw the light of day outside of the grapevine/gossip channels. Ive said it many times that it would have been amazing to have a resource like SI back in the day. Im sure the prevailing sentiment that you described had a lot to do with the way I too (mis)handled my own betrayal. Thankfully things have changed tremendously in that regard. Witness this discussion.

Your Husband sounds like a talented remodeler and what better real life illustration is there for what you two are continuing to try and accomplish in the rehab of your marriage? A hopeful note is that there have been other couples who both attest to the fact that their marriage rebuilding/remodeling efforts have begun to match and even eclipse that which existed prior to the betrayal. I hope you two will be one of those cases. I wish you well.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 8:07 PM, Sunday, August 27th]

"You'd figure that in modern times, people wouldn't feel the need to get married if they didn't agree with the agenda"

~ lascarx

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Lurkingsoul12 ( member #82382) posted at 1:40 PM on Sunday, August 27th, 2023

That's why I'm posting on SI and he says that it's helping him to know that I'm working on myself.

Then you are on the right path.


DobleTraicion : 👏. Your posts are a treasure. Thank you.

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Topic is Sleeping.
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