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Divorce/Separation :
Anyone in home separation and dealing with a narc causing parental alienation?

Topic is Sleeping.
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 BetterTimesAhead (original poster member #70001) posted at 2:32 AM on Sunday, April 30th, 2023

I feel like I am losing my mind all over again. In less than two years he has made my son indifferent to me. Any free time he has he spends with his father. He wants nothing to do with me. He knows what his father has done but chooses to disregard it. The divorce is still not done and it's been 20 months already. STBXH is emotionally, verbally and now very close to physically abusive to me. I don't know what to do anymore. I feel like I lost everything. I appreciate any assistance anyone can give me. I don't want to lose my son forever.

Me: BS - 56 Him: WH - 57 DDAY: 2/22/2019 - Three year EA and PA Filed for D 9/2021 - signed the papers 8/2023 - time to rebuild***************An apology without the action to back it up is just manipulation.

posts: 697   ·   registered: Mar. 11th, 2019   ·   location: US
id 8789029
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Forks027 ( member #59996) posted at 3:10 AM on Sunday, April 30th, 2023

I'm sorry. When I see a situation about to escalate into something fatal, I have to say something.

Something's gotta give here. Staying in the house is not worth your life. Especially when you say your stbx is becoming physical. You say you don't want to lose your son forever, but there's a high chance he'll lose you instead if this keeps up. Your son is completely wrapped around his father as long as you're there to take the fall. The more you push, the more you'll be made to be the "dramatic and overreactive" one, the crazy one while your stbx paints himself as a saint.

Right now, your stbx is focusing all his abuse on you. If you leave and your son decides to stay, who do you think he'll focus his abuse on next? I know that's the one thing you're trying to avoid, but maybe then your son will see the light.

In itself that sounds fucking horrible, but so is becoming another DV case turned tragic.

Please focus on getting yourself out first. And then you can worry about your son.

[This message edited by Forks027 at 3:11 AM, Sunday, April 30th]

posts: 543   ·   registered: Aug. 4th, 2017
id 8789031
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 BetterTimesAhead (original poster member #70001) posted at 3:33 AM on Sunday, April 30th, 2023

Thank you Forks027 for your concern. You are not the first to express this to me. I am working with my attorney to get him out which I'm sure will just enrage him more. I am concerned that without me to focus on and use in his triangulation, his behavior towards our son will change for the worst. He lives to make my life as awful as possible. My son for some reason does not see what he does (maybe it's all the expensive gifts). But my son just turned 18 and legally there is nothing I can do. I really worry about his well being.

Me: BS - 56 Him: WH - 57 DDAY: 2/22/2019 - Three year EA and PA Filed for D 9/2021 - signed the papers 8/2023 - time to rebuild***************An apology without the action to back it up is just manipulation.

posts: 697   ·   registered: Mar. 11th, 2019   ·   location: US
id 8789036
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BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 4:35 PM on Monday, May 1st, 2023

If they don't see this soon, I recommend PMing barcher44 and crazyblindsided, both of whom have dealt with parental alienation. Barcher's divorce is final and CBS's is still ongoing, but I think they could provide you with valuable insights and support.

EDIT (since I didn't see your last post). How long has your husband been the favorite parent? Has your husband been dialing up his interest in your son since the divorce started?

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 4:46 PM, Monday, May 1st]

BW, 40s

Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 1798   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
id 8789165
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barcher144 ( member #54935) posted at 4:59 PM on Monday, May 1st, 2023

The first thing that I remind everyone dealing with parental alienation is that the VICTIM of parental alienation is the child, not the alienated parent. This is child abuse and it's insidious.

If your divorce is not final, then you potentially have some wiggle room although it is a long shot. You need to have a long and difficult conversation with your attorney about your legal options and if they are worth pursuing. It'll help if you are VERY wealthy. You would almost certainly need to get ahold of an EXPERT who could testify on your behalf. A few years ago, when I was dealing with this and my divorce, the expert was Craig Childress (there were some great videos of Craig Childress in front of the Pennsylvania state legislature). He had a bunch of good YouTube videos that described parental alienation and how to identify it and how to treat it.

Part of the problem is that the family court system is a complete shit show. From the court's perspective, one parent is saying that the other parent is the worst human being of all time... and the other parent is saying the same. The court usually doesn't know what to do, so it does nothing. At best, you could get a parenting consultant or guardian ad litem. You should talk to your lawyer about any and all of these options. Be firm with your lawyer too. My (third) attorney did not initially believe my claims of parental alienation (remember, emotions always run high during divorces) and by the time that she realized that I was probably underselling the situation... and that my ex-wife was a complete narcissist... it was too late (my case was further complicated by the fact that I had already fired two attorneys).

Another part of the problem is that the field of psychology/therapy is WAY WAY WAY behind on parental alienation. I have been in a ton of therapy and I even had my daughter in therapy... and NONE of the therapists had any clue about or training in parental alienation.

Anyway... frustrations aside... my advice is almost always the same:

1. Be the best parent that you can be around your child. Do not overreact but set firm and reasonable boundaries and enforce them evenly. This is a marathon, not a sprint. Kids know if you are trying to buy their love (one caveat: I spend a lot of TIME with my children, even if I don't spend a lot of money -- spending as much time as you can with your children is ALWAYS good). Do NOT disparage the other parent. Maybe tell your child that you are not going to disparage their other parent and why you are not going to do that (because it only hurts the child). That is, I've tried to teach my kids about how a divorced parent should act, hoping that they connect that their mother is doing a lot of things that are hurtful to them. I think that my middle child has figured this out, which is great because she was the prime target of parental alienation (we went from "best buds" to she didn't speak to me for 6 weeks in about 2 weeks of time).

2. Try to get your child to a therapist who has some understanding of parental alienation. The best bet would be someone who specializes in family therapy. This is not easy to do. My divorce agreement requires that we all enroll with a family therapist, but my ex-wife has refused at times... and my child has refused at times... and so my ex-wife says that if the child refuses then she refuses (or maybe my ex agrees to therapy knowing that the child will refuse to go). This sounds stupid, but according to my lawyer... a signed legal agreement to go to therapy does not supersede an in-the-moment refusal.

3. Never, ever give up. I have more or less lost my oldest child. She rarely comes to my home during parenting time. But, every week, I always ask about her plans. I always give her appropriate gifts at appropriate times (birthdays, etc). I never bring up how she has basically cut me out of her life. I will probably give up some day, but she will be in her mid-20s by the time that I do (again, it's a marathon, not a sprint.).

Me: Crap, I'm 50 years old. D-Day: August 30, 2016. Two years of false reconciliation. Divorce final: Feb 1, 2021. Re-married: December 3, 2022.

posts: 5417   ·   registered: Aug. 31st, 2016
id 8789168
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 BetterTimesAhead (original poster member #70001) posted at 5:10 PM on Monday, May 1st, 2023

Thank you for the response Bluerthanblue.

My son just turned 18 so custody is only an issue for child support (we are responsible until 21 in NY- not sure how other states do it). My son wants to live with his father so I pay (even though his father makes 3-4x as much as me).

A couple years ago, my son couldn't stand his father - so much so that his father screamed in my face that I ruined their relationship so I had to fix it. Now the tables have turned. His father buys him what he wants, has no rules, no boundaries, allows my son to do whatever he wants and does on him non-stop. I know he has put false ideas in my son's head because I've heard them when I am present and can only imagine what STBXH says when I'm not around. He prevents me from speaking to my son alone whenever he can, and makes it seem as if my son should have concerns speaking to me alone (STBXH will come up to us and ask my son if he is OK, if he needs help when all we are doing is having a conversation).

As he is 18 there is nothing I can do about where he chooses to live but even living with me my son basically ignores me. The three of us can be in the same room and STBXH will tell me to leave because no one wants me there and my son says nothing. If we are all home and my son needs to go somewhere (no license yet as his father tells him there's no rush) my son always asks his father. Everyone has free time? My son goes out with his father. I think you get the idea.

I have no problem with my son living elsewhere as he is 18, but the thought of him being under his father's influence 24/7 is heartbreaking. We used to be very close, taking long (hours long) walks and talking as we walked. Now he doesn't even remember that and it seems he only speaks to me when he needs something and his father is not available.

Me: BS - 56 Him: WH - 57 DDAY: 2/22/2019 - Three year EA and PA Filed for D 9/2021 - signed the papers 8/2023 - time to rebuild***************An apology without the action to back it up is just manipulation.

posts: 697   ·   registered: Mar. 11th, 2019   ·   location: US
id 8789172
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 BetterTimesAhead (original poster member #70001) posted at 7:55 PM on Monday, May 1st, 2023

You are right barcher144. It feels like I am the victim but it is our son who is the victim. Maybe that's why this is so difficult for me, because nothing I do seems to help him.

As I stated previously, the courts won't get involved now. STBXH dragged it out so long that my son turned 18 last week. I'm on my own. He has a therapist for other reasons but she is aware of the family dynamic. Due to HIPPAA requirements she can say nothing to me.

STBXH spends all his money on my son. I want to spend time with him but he always wants to be with his father. Not sure what to do to make this better.

I have not given up on him but it is extremely painful to be ignored and pushed aside, especially for the lying, abusive cheater that STBXH is. It's just being victimized by STBXH again in a different way. I am tired of being a victim but being a good person doesn't seem to help. He just comes after me in different ways. It is difficult to be cheerful every time they leave together, saying "see you later luv!" with a smile when I want to be the one spending time with him. Once they move out I don't know when I'll ever see him.

Me: BS - 56 Him: WH - 57 DDAY: 2/22/2019 - Three year EA and PA Filed for D 9/2021 - signed the papers 8/2023 - time to rebuild***************An apology without the action to back it up is just manipulation.

posts: 697   ·   registered: Mar. 11th, 2019   ·   location: US
id 8789183
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BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 9:13 PM on Monday, May 1st, 2023

It seems like your son has been starved for love and attention from his father in the past, so he's gobbling up all the lovebombing and overindulgence that your STBX is doing now. It's likely that once the divorce is final and your son is living with his father full time, the gifts and attention will dry up, and your ex won't tolerate the rude and spoiled behavior that he is currently cultivating in your son.

Although I didn't have kids with my ex, as a child of a contentious divorce, my advice to you is to continue to love and support your son, but don't get drawn into a competition with your ex for your son's approval and affection. When your son mouths off and is out of line with you, call him out on it. Do your best to assert the rules and boundaries that are within your power to enforce. At the same time, don't succumb to the urge to disparage your STBX and the natural urge to defend yourself by reminding your son of everything STBX has done.

Over time, your son may eventually realize that you are stable, consistent, and reliable parent, while his father's love runs hot and cold and is entirely contingent on his ability to get what he wants out of people. If and when that day comes, he is going to be in a lot of pain and will need you to be there for him.

BW, 40s

Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 1798   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
id 8789192
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 BetterTimesAhead (original poster member #70001) posted at 12:17 AM on Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023

Bluerthanblue, I think you nailed it. During the years log affair, he was not around much and was not pleasant when he was. I know my son noticed. Of course STBXH says that didn't happen and he was always here for his son but I know better. He is definitely trying to buy his love and it is important to STBXH not only that our son like him but that he like him better than me (of course he would deny this too).

I do still parent and I know my son is not always happy with my decisions. I do resist any negativity regarding his father although in the initial stages that was not the case. His cheating hit me hard and it is a daily struggle to not engage with him, not allow him to start arguments, not respond to his inappropriate commentary. Unfortunately my son hears it and it is a catch-22 - by not saying anything my son either assumes his father must be right because I am not defending myself or if I say something I didn't keep my word to him that I would not fight with his father in front of him anymore. Even trying to have a basic conversation devolves into an argument on STBXH's part. The contempt on his part is palpable. I try not to engage at all. When his father steps out of line, if I can get a minute alone with my son I just tell him "you know it's not okay that your father speaks to me that way" and I leave it at that. I don't want him thinking he can speak to anyone that way.

I've often said the same thing about the future - STBXH can't keep this up forever, particularly when I am not there for him to triangulate against, and someday I hope my son sees his father for what he really is but at the same time I know how devastated he will be. I will be here for him no matter what even though these past couple years just break my heart and I see no end in sight. I hope and pray he grows up and is no longer under the negative influence of his father. My son is a wonderful person and even the thought that he will become his father just causes me so much anxiety. It is difficult to let go of that which we can't control.

Me: BS - 56 Him: WH - 57 DDAY: 2/22/2019 - Three year EA and PA Filed for D 9/2021 - signed the papers 8/2023 - time to rebuild***************An apology without the action to back it up is just manipulation.

posts: 697   ·   registered: Mar. 11th, 2019   ·   location: US
id 8789202
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crazyblindsided ( member #35215) posted at 12:45 AM on Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023

Yes I am dealing with the same thing my kids are 19 and 16

What Barcher says here has been helping the most...

one caveat: I spend a lot of TIME with my children, even if I don't spend a lot of money -- spending as much time as you can with your children is ALWAYS good). Do NOT disparage the other parent.

My XWS throws lots of money at the kids and what teenager doesn't like money and no boundaries. I have managed to detach a little from the situation and play the long game. I am focusing on my healing and enjoying my kids when I have them. My son like your son also had disparaging things to say about their father, my daughter too, until I left and my XWS has rewritten history to make himself the victim. Recently my XWS tried to strangle my son and that has strained the relationship with his dad. My daughter chose to take my XWS side (I can't understand this for the life of me except to think she doesn't want to be on his bad side so overlooks his shortcomings).Recently my son decided on his own against my best wishes that he wants to try going back to the 50/50 arrangement with his dad. This has me very scared for his safety but I try my best not to disparage my ex any further as it seems to alienate my kids even more.

I honestly do not know what the answer is as I'm still dealing with it all and my D is still in process. I can only hope for the best and focus on my life and what makes me happy. But I do spend quality time with my kids over throwing money at them (I don't have a lot of extra money to give the kids).

It feels like your heart is being ripped out of your chest and like you are losing your kids bit by bit. I can empathize. Hopefully one day they will see the behavior of our XWS's and be able to clearly see that we tried our best and know we are good and stable parents. I just wish that day would come sooner rather than later.

I would try to occupy your time with friends and hobbies things that bring joy to your life and plan special times just you and your son. Go for walks with them and just talk. Sometimes I'll ask them to watch a movie with me. Just don't give up, I'm right there with you in this type of situation.

fBS/fWS(me):50 Mad-hattered after DD (2008)
XWS:53 Serial Cheater, Diagnosed NPD
DD(20) DS(17)
XWS cheated the entire M spanning 19 years
Discovered D-Days 2006,2008,2012, False R 2014
Divorcing

posts: 8693   ·   registered: Apr. 2nd, 2012   ·   location: California
id 8789204
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 BetterTimesAhead (original poster member #70001) posted at 1:52 AM on Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023

Crazyblindsided, it does feel like your heart is being ripped out of your chest and none of it make sense. It is so hard having him in the house with me in IHS because it is right in my face every time my son chooses him and it just breaks my heart. If the three of us are here and I try to have a talk with my son, STBXH is right there within seconds listening in. I ask him to leave and he refuses. What am I supposed to do?

I have no money to throw at him either and STBXH is rarely gone to give me time with my son. I am at a loss what to do. Although STBXH says I disparage him all the time, I don't say anything as I am trying to completely excise him from my life. Dealing with a narc is a whole other level when it involves your children.

I am so sorry to hear what happened with your son. And still he wants to see him? I don't understand the logic. Just like I don't understand why my son is not furious at his father for destroying our family. Why am I the one being punished? I know teens are difficult under any circumstances but this is another level. And I worry for his future. I am hoping since he is 18 he will spend less and less time with his father and assert his independence.

I have a pretrial hearing for my D on Wednesday. I would be shocked if he settles and if not, on to trial at the end of June. Been 20 months since I've filed and it just keeps getting worse. Like you, I hope his eyes are opened and he sees me truly for who I am - the stable parent, the one who's always there for him, who shows him love and doesn't buy it. I am trying to get my life back and I hope that my son will be a bigger part of it as time goes forward. I miss how things used to be before STBXH's spitefulness and pettiness (and let's face it, animosity and contempt for me) became a part of our lives.

Wishing you peace and happiness, and that you have your kids back fully soon, and I hope you all stay safe.

Me: BS - 56 Him: WH - 57 DDAY: 2/22/2019 - Three year EA and PA Filed for D 9/2021 - signed the papers 8/2023 - time to rebuild***************An apology without the action to back it up is just manipulation.

posts: 697   ·   registered: Mar. 11th, 2019   ·   location: US
id 8789209
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The1stWife ( Guide #58832) posted at 8:41 AM on Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023

BetterTimes

I am crossing my fingers that the pre-trial hearing results in a settlement.

I am so sorry for your pain with your children. My good friend went through the same thing as you in D her serial cheating NPD H. The kids are split - one feels sorry for the "poor father" 😡 and the others favor the mother more.

But over time I think they will start to see things differently. You can only lie so much and then it catches up to you.

And when the kids realize the father has lied to them, there is even more devastation. Because true to being NPD types, they turn on or against anyone who can no longer be of use to them. Even their own children.

Hang in there. You are doing the right thing. One day your kids will see their father for who and what he really is.

Survived two affairs and brink of Divorce. Happily reconciled. 10 years out from Dday. Reconciliation takes two committed people to be successful.

posts: 13792   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2017
id 8789227
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 BetterTimesAhead (original poster member #70001) posted at 3:48 PM on Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023

Thank you the1stWife. I hope tomorrow it all gets done.

I thought things couldn't get worse after D-Day but this breaks my heart all over again. He is my one and only, so I really hope he can see clearly soon.

Thank you all for your support. I am in touch with a therapist who specializes in this so I'm hoping she can help me.

Me: BS - 56 Him: WH - 57 DDAY: 2/22/2019 - Three year EA and PA Filed for D 9/2021 - signed the papers 8/2023 - time to rebuild***************An apology without the action to back it up is just manipulation.

posts: 697   ·   registered: Mar. 11th, 2019   ·   location: US
id 8789266
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barcher144 ( member #54935) posted at 7:43 PM on Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023

I wrote a really long response but I deleted it because it's so disconnected.

You just need to be yourself. Don't be the crazy ex-wife who is an emotional wreck because her husband cheated on her. You can't afford to be that person (so cry alone at night if you need to -- that's what I did).

You have to appear calm, rational, and good mom in front of your son. Many alienated parents make it worse by having emotional breakdowns in front of their kids -- you need to avoid that as best as you can.

If your STBXH is the narcissistic asshole that you are describing, then you need to remember that he will not change. He will remain the same person who cheated on you and the same person who makes you afraid for your safety. He is being a Disney Dad right now, but he won't keep it up. He's too selfish.

Finally, keep asking your son to go on walks with you. Let him reject you with a polite smile and a "maybe next time". Look for other activities that are affordable... be creative.

Just don't quit. Be patient.

Also, live your life to the best that you can NOW. Stop talking to your STBXH except through attorneys. Avoid him at all costs. Make new friends. Find a new hobby. Explore an old hobby. Go on long walks by yourself!! My point being... get yourself to a good place. That will help too.

Edited to add:

I thought things couldn't get worse after D-Day but this breaks my heart all over again.

Understood. Parental alienation is actually worse than infidelity, in my opinion. Not that it's a competition.

[This message edited by barcher144 at 8:27 PM, Tuesday, May 2nd]

Me: Crap, I'm 50 years old. D-Day: August 30, 2016. Two years of false reconciliation. Divorce final: Feb 1, 2021. Re-married: December 3, 2022.

posts: 5417   ·   registered: Aug. 31st, 2016
id 8789300
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 BetterTimesAhead (original poster member #70001) posted at 10:59 PM on Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023

I hear you barcher. I am past the crying and emotional outbursts although they unfortunately did happen in the beginning. I rarely speak to STBXH even though he lives in my house. I use my attorney for anything STBXH gives me a hard time about (which of course makes STBXH say I'm wasting money on attorney fees so kind of a catch-22 - he should realize he either has to cooperate with me or pay the fees - can't have it both ways).

The hardest part is to smile as my son walks out the door with his father yet again as if all 99% fis ok and I am fine with it when I am definitely not. But since he just turned 18 I don't have any say in what he does, with his father or anyone else. So I keep offering and 99% of the time he declines and I just smile as my heart breaks even more.

I have started my new life as much as possible - I got a job (with benefits since I will be losing my health insurance), I go out with friends more, spend my time the way I want. Anything he says that is degrading or demeaning or passive-aggressive gets ignored. His opinion means nothing to me now. But the tension is still there just from his presence. That I cannot avoid and certainly takes its toll. Tomorrow is pretrial and I am hoping and praying his attorney gets through to him and we can reach an agreement. Fingers crossed.

In the meantime, I try to be interested but not controlling where my son is concerned. It is a fine line to walk. Sometimes I am so hurt I just want to ignore him but then I realize he is struggling with this too and I try to be a better person. I'm a work in progress.

I appreciate everyone's insight. It is so difficult to know how to handle this so that I don't make things worse. Unfortunately it seems only time can really help the situation (and I hope it does).

Me: BS - 56 Him: WH - 57 DDAY: 2/22/2019 - Three year EA and PA Filed for D 9/2021 - signed the papers 8/2023 - time to rebuild***************An apology without the action to back it up is just manipulation.

posts: 697   ·   registered: Mar. 11th, 2019   ·   location: US
id 8789324
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leafields ( Guide #63517) posted at 5:44 AM on Thursday, May 4th, 2023

Good luck tomorrow and hope things go well for you. Once your STBXWH is out of the house, you won't have to walk on egg shells and your home will be more peaceful.

Stay the course with your son. Eventually he'll see that dad was just using him to hurt you.

BW M 34years, Dday 1: March 2018, Dday 2: August 2019, D final 2/25/21

posts: 3125   ·   registered: Apr. 21st, 2018   ·   location: Washington State
id 8789497
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 BetterTimesAhead (original poster member #70001) posted at 3:46 PM on Thursday, May 4th, 2023

Thank you for the encouragement leafields.

I received the proposed stip by email after 8pm the night before court. Not much time to look it over but lots of changes that I can see. Court was full of anxiety. Never spoke with the judge. I went over the changes I wanted to make to the stip with my attorney, he met with the other attorney and a court representative, they discussed and disagreed,and we were sent home to work on it and come back the first week of June. Tension at home is through the roof. And can you believe STBXH had the audacity to ask me to give him a ride somewhere (well, asked in his passive-aggressive way).

Can't wait for that peace you speak of leafields.

Me: BS - 56 Him: WH - 57 DDAY: 2/22/2019 - Three year EA and PA Filed for D 9/2021 - signed the papers 8/2023 - time to rebuild***************An apology without the action to back it up is just manipulation.

posts: 697   ·   registered: Mar. 11th, 2019   ·   location: US
id 8789562
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crazyblindsided ( member #35215) posted at 5:32 PM on Thursday, May 4th, 2023

(((BetterTimesAhead))) you will get this peace of mind after he is out of the house permanently. It's too hard being IHS and you can only detach so much while constantly being re traumatized by them. I liken it to a feeling of getting out of a cage or a prison. No more of the ups and downs and chaos that these narcissists cause. Life is consistent and peaceful and happy. I can't wait for you to get there ;) it's beautiful on the other side of this.

fBS/fWS(me):50 Mad-hattered after DD (2008)
XWS:53 Serial Cheater, Diagnosed NPD
DD(20) DS(17)
XWS cheated the entire M spanning 19 years
Discovered D-Days 2006,2008,2012, False R 2014
Divorcing

posts: 8693   ·   registered: Apr. 2nd, 2012   ·   location: California
id 8789583
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 BetterTimesAhead (original poster member #70001) posted at 10:04 PM on Thursday, May 4th, 2023

That's exactly how I feel crazyblindsided. Every day seeing his face and being around him just prolongs the pain and prevents the real healing from happening. I don't sleep soundly and you feel the tension in the house every moment. I am really looking forward to that first morning where I wake up after a good night's sleep and there is peace and a feeling of ease. Seems like it will never get here.

Me: BS - 56 Him: WH - 57 DDAY: 2/22/2019 - Three year EA and PA Filed for D 9/2021 - signed the papers 8/2023 - time to rebuild***************An apology without the action to back it up is just manipulation.

posts: 697   ·   registered: Mar. 11th, 2019   ·   location: US
id 8789621
Topic is Sleeping.
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