SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hello,

My first post is in JFO. I have gotten some really great advice so far and so I am looking for some more general info from the general forum that may also include input from former WS’s.

First questions related to the "180":

How do I balance the 180 with protecting my emotions and detaching from my WW, and at the same time be able to communicate my pain?

How do I let myself experience emotions and get depressed for a few hours when I get a trigger that brings back all of the emotions and not feel as though being an emotional wreck is feeding my WW’s re-writing of our past fantasy that I am "emotionally immature"?

My next set of questions is related to time-frames. I realize that I can’t "science" myself out of this but I am looking for common patterns. DDay was two months ago. My WW started IC one month ago. My WW is not remorseful at all. I would say that due to her anger of perhaps realizing how bad she messed up has lead her to insane blame shifting and being angry and me for the smallest things, as well as her purposely trying to get me angry so she can justify her actions and make me the bad-guy in the marriage.

Are we still in the beginning stages of this? Am I unrealistic to expect my WW to take accountability and be remorseful and realize what she has really done this early on?

Very normal for an unremorseful wayward. You can't change her mind by engaging with her, and that's what the 180 is really about. Focusing on yourself and your healing. It's not to manipulate her into seeing she was wrong. You just have to let go of the outcome and focus on your healing. This is much easier said than done.

The remorse may never come. You may need to D. If she refuses to address her A outside of other pre-A marital problems you are simply stuck. While I've always been of the opinion that it's ok to get everything on the table first, that's mostly to figure out if the relationship is even worth saving. Then you can tackle the A. Only after you really feel safe again, can you tackle any other M problems.

I was in limbo for a year before we started R.

I’m not a lot further along than you, just 8 months since d-day, so I don’t have the full experience that many posters do. On the other hand, I genuinely feel you on these things in close to real time.
Regarding your wife’s anger: it took me a little while to figure out how emotionally and mentally toxic it is to me. But it is like napalm and you need to protect yourself from it. 180 and/or strong boundaries. I told my wife that I refused to be in the presence of her anger and defensiveness and if they showed up I would remove myself from the situation. Even little exposures really hurt me because what I really need from her in those times is the exact opposite, humility and empathy. The anger just corrodes the soul where it has already been torn.

How do I balance the 180 with protecting my emotions and detaching from my WW, and at the same time be able to communicate my pain?

Second part first, what is the positive outcome of communicating your pain?

I suggest that you focus on something like 'What do I need to do to heal?' Communicating your pain may be part of that, but it's only part.

IMO, a WS can't do much about the BS's anger, grief, fear, and shame - resolving those feelings was all up to the BS. OTOH, I can understand that letting one's WS know what I was feeling was important.

I did that naturally. When I was feeling something, I told her (and told her with the emotion showing.) My goal was to release the feeling. Releasing feelings helped. Using feelings to rub WS's nose in her shit, not so much. I know shaming my WS didn't help, because I did my share of it.

First part 2nd, if R is on the table, the 180 is not for you. The 180 minimizes communication. Finding out if your WS is a good candidate for R requires maximizing communications. That is the only way to find out if your WS is a good, indifferent, or bad candidate for R.

The 180 is useful if you find she's a good candidate for D but can't detach. Right now you need to build yourself up and communicate or - given your W's behavior - move to D, but see below. I really dislike the original 180 list. I recommend reading https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/documents/library/articles/discovery/the-simplified-180/.

One part of the 180 is aimed at finding and enhancing your own strengths. That part is something you'll need to do in any case. A good IC can help your with that, if you find that difficult.

How do I let myself experience emotions and get depressed for a few hours when I get a trigger that brings back all of the emotions and not feel as though being an emotional wreck is feeding my WW’s re-writing of our past fantasy that I am "emotionally immature"?

Stop thinking about your W. Do what's best for you. WRT emotions, feeling them - letting them flow through your body - is the quickest and healthiest way through them. If you stop yourself from feeling, you stuff them, and they'll come back and bite you at a bad time.

It's a lot of painful work. It's totally unfair. But feeling your emotions is the fastest way through them.

DDay was two months ago. My WW started IC one month ago. My WW is not remorseful at all. I would say that due to her anger of perhaps realizing how bad she messed up has lead her to insane blame shifting and being angry and me for the smallest things, as well as her purposely trying to get me angry so she can justify her actions and make me the bad-guy in the marriage.

I was in shock for 3-6 months after d-day, and I I'm not alone in that.

One one hand, you are at the very beginning of healing. The less you let your feelings flow, the more work you have ahead of you, and the farther from feeling healed you are.

One question you that faces you is: Does your W show any sign of changing, or will she not change until it's too late? The sooner you answer that, the better for you - but it can take a long time to get a valid answer.

Then you need to answer, 'How long is 'too long'? Alas, you have to answer that for yourself.

Are we still in the beginning stages of this?

Absolutely. Totally. You are at the beginning beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Am I unrealistic to expect my WW to take accountability and be remorseful and realize what she has really done this early on?

Well, no, but ... it takes some WSes months to start changing.

Why did she start IC? If part of her motivation was to change from cheater to good partner, or if she gets to that point quickly enough for you, R is possible. Otherwise, D is likely to be your best bet.

Do you have requirements for R? If not get some, and see if she's willing to agree to meet them. If she is, again R is possible. If not, D is probably your best bet.

My reco is to make your healing your primary goal. Let D or R come from that. If your W continues to minimize and/or blame-shift, though, you'll probably need to split to heal yourself.

If you were able to communicate your pain safely with your wife, the 180 would not be necessary. You need to protect yourself and emotionally detach from her because she is not a safe partner.

If you don't have one yet, find yourself an IC who can serve as an outlet for your emotions and help you with understanding and processing them. Also, reach out to someone close to you who can provide you with advice and support.

As for a timeline, I don't think any of us can give you one, but I think if several weeks or months go by without any proactive effort or even compassion from your wife, then you shouldn't continue to torture yourself with false hope that she will miraculously have an epiphany.

My WW is not remorseful at all. I would say that due to her anger of perhaps realizing how bad she messed up has lead her to insane blame shifting and being angry and me for the smallest things, as well as her purposely trying to get me angry so she can justify her actions and make me the bad-guy in the marriage.

Unfortunately this is a very bad sign and if your WS does not come around and start to see the light I would recommend D. I'm not sure if she is conflict avoidant and shame resistant or possibly showing strong narcissistic tendencies. My XWS is this way and treats every situation he has done wrong by practicing this method of madness and gaslighting. What she is effectively doing is called DARVO, deny, attack, and reverse victim and offender.

Keep on the 180 and detaching. If anything it will help you in the long run if you need to leave the M. Also see an IC for your own mental support. Go out with friends and establish a good support system for yourself.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 5:35 PM, Thursday, March 2nd]

How do I balance the 180 with protecting my emotions and detaching from my WW, and at the same time be able to communicate my pain?

If you are hopeful of R and if your WW has stopped contact with the AP, why are you doing 180? It can be a great tool for emotionally detaching from a spouse when divorce is imminent, but R requires communication. I don't understand why you would shut that down when it's counter to your goals.

Personally, I think that all too often we see people hoping to use 180 as a tool to influence a stubborn WS into compliance, but at the bottom line, we can't control other people. We can only control ourselves. Just like you couldn't MAKE someone cheat, you can't MAKE them be what you want them to be in R. What you need is authentic communication so that you know what she's thinking and she knows what you're thinking. We don't always hear what we want to hear and view points might change over the course of time, but... that's the journey. You can't take a journey with someone when you've shut them down, and allowing communication doesn't lock you into R for all time. If your feelings change as time goes by, you can adjust your course accordingly.

How do I balance the 180 with protecting my emotions and detaching from my WW, and at the same time be able to communicate my pain?

Speaking for myself, I considered myself healed at about five years out. My fWS was sorry within the first month and foggy for probably three. After that, he made pretty steady progress. Depending upon how traumatized we are, it can take quite a while to recover. I think some of that depends on working through old issues and FOO drama in order to reach a good state of emotional self-reliance. For some, that's more difficult than for others.

Are we still in the beginning stages of this? Am I unrealistic to expect my WW to take accountability and be remorseful and realize what she has really done this early on?

I am a really strong believer of dealing with the person who is standing in front of you today.

Who is your wife? She is a culmination of her actions through history. A not long time ago, she may have been a very good wife. Not long ago, she was an active cheater. Today, she is an unremorseful partner. Why would we just try to address the good former person, when right in front of us, they are stomping on the heart that they tore out? THIS is who you deal with. Maybe....hopefully....someday, she will acknowledge her wrongdoings, but there is no reason why someone who is treating you poorly shouldn't be called out for it....and appropriate boundaries set up to address that. The 180(detaching) is the proper resolution, again, in my opinion, when a partner is unsafe. Right now, she is remorseless, and no matter your desire to reconcile, your path out of infidelity is divorce. The path to reconciliation is not open(by her actions and mindset). How long YOU are willing to try to work through this is a very individual choice. If you look above at THis0is0Fine, he was in limbo for around a year. He wanted to reconcile, but his wife's actions were leading him to divorce, and he knew that would be the eventuality if things didn't change. Fortunately, for him, they did, but it was certain not a guarantee. He was prepared to divorce on the original path he was on....dictated by his wife's actions.

Although you need to address you, it really is your wife's behavior that is going to guide how you treat her....and yourself.

*God does not want us as men to be simps.*

***God does not want us as men to be simps.***

*********GOD DOES NOT WANT US AS MEN TO BE SIMPS!********

It is in the Bible, in many places.

goingthruhell, you are being FAR TOO nice. And it NEVER works. You are Doing The Pick-Me Dance to try to appease your WW. You are also Rugsweeping, pushing R far far too early. And as is the case in about every instance involving other people, the results are a disaster.

The men who ironically, seem to do the best in turning their WWs around are those BH who take the hardest line and demonstrate radical self-respect. It is the BHs who file for D who get the best results, not the ones who try to 'reason' with their silly WW and their nonsense. It is astounding how that gets their WW to wake up and run around like scalded cats to save the marriage (regret), and then to understand the devastation they caused their families (remorse), and then to do the work to become a safe partner.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:32 PM, Thursday, March 2nd]

** Posting as a member whose tagline used to be something like 'I trigger madly on over-generalizations **

It is the BHs who file for D who get the best results, not the ones who try to 'reason' with their silly WW and their nonsense. It is astounding how that gets their WW to wake up and run around like scalded cats to save the marriage....

I do not understand why this is limited to BHs. Most BSes of any gender can file for D in Europe, North America, and - I Believe but haven't checked - South America.

I'm also concerned that this can be read as a recommendation to file for D with a goal of dragging one's 'WW' into R.

IMO, the BS is best advised to make sure the WS has as free a choice as possible about D/R. To R, a BS needs a WS who wants to be M to them, not a WS who wants to avoid D. R won't work unless the WS is totally committed to building a new M that serves both partners. R won't work unless the WS wants to be M to the BS.

IMO, the Betrayeds who do well are the ones who figure out and act directly, with total honesty, to get what they want.

IMO, nothing increases the likelihood of false R more than entering it with even a tinge of manipulation.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:48 PM, Friday, March 3rd]

Am I unrealistic to expect my WW to take accountability and be remorseful and realize what she has really done this early on?

I think the base issue here is that you are 'expecting' something from the WS. This is not healthy, in that you are then going at their pace, and not yours. You are still playing her game, and you don't know the rules, so you will lose.

What would be healthier is that you go ahead with your own healing and life, and if your WS wants to join you on the journey, then so be it. If not, then you will still be progressing and and working towards a healthy life for YOU.

By 'expecting' the WS to do something, you set back the timeline on your own healing.

With the 'expectation', I have a funny feeling that you are looking for the unicorn called Closure. If you keep looking for it, you will possibly turn around one day and find that you have lost time looking for something that does not exist outside. It can only be found in your own mind.

Get healed mentally and emotionally, and you will find that you will not need Closure from someone else.

At a few months in from Dday, you're in the infancy of your own personal journey through recovery. It will take at least a couple of years, even if you divorce now and find a nice new woman to get into a new relationship with. I can speak to that time frame from personal experience.

If you keep doing what you're doing -- playing the pick-me dance, trying to eke a glimmer of empathy out of an unremorseful WW, hoping for a glimmer of understanding in her eyes -- you will be simply banging your head against a wall for a couple of years at least, that's before you even begin healing.

Filing divorce as a gambit to drag her into R, that's the worst advice ever. We see it here on SI all the time. I wish I could take a virtual sharpie and simply black it out. It's truly dumb advice. Everybody, please stop suggesting that. Please, for the love of God.

The bottom line is that you can only control you. Do you want to be married to your wife, right now, under the circumstances that exist right now? No? Then your only option is to take steps to get out of the marriage. Period.

Meet with a good divorce lawyer to learn what the process looks like, both during and after. Then tell your wife: "Wife, I love you. I have never stopped loving you. Somewhere along the way you stopped loving me. You're clearly unhappy in our marriage. Because I love you, I want you to be happy. Therefore, I'm setting you free to find your happiness. I wish it were with me, but I can see that, at least now, that is not in your heart. I wish you the best in life."

I stand by what I wrote.

OP needs to file for D--and mean it--not as a tactic, but to show his WW, AND HIMSELF, that he is serious about Getting Out Of Infidelity.