Newest Member: Butterfly19

Just Found Out :
Fooled again

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BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 3:33 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

I think moving her stuff to the guest bedroom and locking her out the master is perfectly reasonable.

You didn't step out of the marriage. Why should you leave the marital bed?

BW, age 40
Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried to a great guy

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 490   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
id 8677804
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Marz ( member #60895) posted at 3:35 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

At this point I’m not sure what you’re trying to accomplish.

Hoping she’ll get it?

posts: 6685   ·   registered: Oct. 3rd, 2017
id 8677805
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asc1226 ( member #75363) posted at 3:36 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

She’s the one who stepped outside of the marriage. She’s relinquished her claim on the marital bed.

I make edits, words is hard

posts: 376   ·   registered: Sep. 7th, 2020
id 8677806
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guvensiz ( member #75858) posted at 4:01 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

My wife and her “friend” got to his wife before me and she is in the “their just friends camp”. Not sure there’s much of a point talking to her again.

So I'm assuming you have talked to her. Of course, the lack of concrete evidence of the A may have reduced your credibility.

I had already suggested that you not tell her they were having an affair, but just tell her what happened.

The point is, was his wife really unable to join them because of a last minute job, or was it something that was already planned? I think you haven't discussed this with his wife. If so, I think you would have answered. Don't avoid it by thinking it will be useless, maybe this information will wake her up too.

posts: 501   ·   registered: Nov. 14th, 2020
id 8677812
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 Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 4:01 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

I stayed at a hotel last night. I wanted space to think. When I came home she wasn't home. I pinged her phone and saw she was parked in a park. Her laptop was missing. Wonder what she's doing? lol I texted her asking her if she was ok because the kids said she went to drop my daughter off at a Humane Society day program that started hours earlier. She said she was writing me a letter. She said she knows he is bad and she wants me and she's going to prove it to me. I responded" I'm not being mean. I'm being authentic. I don't think you can prove it or rebuild trust. Not because you aren't capable of trying. I just don't think it's possible."

Her response "please look at my computer when I get home. There is nothing. And I Can!!! I can !!! Give me a chance. Give me a trial period. Anything!! I love you - It is possible!! We are family. I need you."

Lets take that apart a little.

1) the days of me being the relationship police and trying harder than her are over. I'm not looking at anything. She can call him on the phone in front of me and I won't say a word.

2) I can't think of a way she can rebuild trust so I think she's wrong about that. I few years ago I told her that eventually there would come a day where there was no return. I guess she thought that was a threat. It's just a fact.

3) "I need you" Yes, I know you need me to maintain your lifestyle. You need to use me more. You're not done taking yet. You need more time to take more.

After this multi year experience and then seeing the messages yesterday. I don't love her anymore. I have compassion for her suffering, but I'm not placing that compassion over my own self compassion.

I spoke to my Mom last night. That feels weird to say for some reason. I'm 45, but I guess I told my mom on her. lol. My wife's mother has some mental health issues and is really hard to deal with. My wife and her aren't close. My wife has been super close to my mother and seeks her approval. My mother agreed as part of the 180 she will only be talking to me. My mother was cheated on by my dad many times. In fact when she finally filed for divorce he married the next door neighbor. He cheated and physically abused every women he was with. That's likely why I now work in child protection and have never cheated ever with any partner I've been with. My mother recognized the cheater pattern as I described my wife's actions. She expressed her own frustration when her family wanted to be active with my dad after their divorce. My dad was very charming. She's in my corner and I'll admit I will get a little satisfaction when my wife realizes she's lost that relationship.

posts: 82   ·   registered: Jul. 21st, 2021
id 8677813
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 Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 4:03 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

Marz- The bedroom idea is not so she will get it. I'm not thinking that way anymore. I don't want to sleep in the same room with her. I don't think I should be the one in the guest room. She will refuse to leave the master bedroom.

posts: 82   ·   registered: Jul. 21st, 2021
id 8677814
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 Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 4:07 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

guvensiz - I gave the wife the information I had at the time. But she was convinced it was fake. They convinced her I was being a crazy jealous husband. I never figured out definitively how long ahead of the race the other wife knew she wasn't going to be there. I did confirm on the race website the other wife had registered and paid for the race. So, she initially did plan on being there that weekend.

posts: 82   ·   registered: Jul. 21st, 2021
id 8677815
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nekonamida ( member #42956) posted at 4:21 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

"please look at my computer when I get home. There is nothing. And I Can!!! I can !!! Give me a chance. Give me a trial period. Anything!! I love you - It is possible!! We are family. I need you."

Yes, I'm sure that you will find a squeaky clean digital history on a computer she's spent the last day or so scrubbing of any and all incriminating evidence. If she can go to such great lengths as to hide conversations within seemingly boring code/work documents, I don't doubt her ability to hide any and all evidence of the continued contact. And giving how they're "just friends" who have "just sex" on occasion, I also wouldn't doubt that the PA has continued after your last DDay.

I'm glad to see that you are not falling for it. This isn't the response of someone who genuinely wants to come clean and make amends because then she would be understanding of how you may never trust her again. She would be saying things like, "I know that you have no reason to trust me now or possibly ever, but I hope you will read this letter and let me find a way to help you heal and restore our marriage." This is the panicky desperation of a liar who is about to face the consequences for their actions and they are looking for one last ditch effort to pretend that it wasn't as bad you think and that you're overreacting. That's why she's treating your feelings as if she can argue against them. She believes she can "win" you back by arguing against you leaving and guilting you by saying things like, "I love you" "I need you" "We're family". When she realizes that you're no longer accepting her manipulation, she will switch to, "How can you throw away our family like this?" "Why can't you give a chance?" "If we get a divorce, it's your fault because I don't want this." and so many more aimed at forcing you back under her control.

Notice what she ISN'T offering - a passed polygraph test, recovery software being run on her laptop so that you can see the files/communications, retrieving emails from her work server if possible, going to IC/MC (even though MC would be a nightmare at this stage), access to her phone/phone records/social media accounts, quitting and finding a new job away from the OM, etc. She's simply telling you to go back to "trusting her" in which she will hide communications better next time and you won't catch her. That will "prove" that she is no longer talking to OM. What a deal!

You seem like you have a good grasp on the situation and are making moves to separate regardless of what (terrible) offers she throws your way. Prepare yourself mentally for more extreme behavior from her as this progresses. She will start changing tactics in order to get you back into the marriage - threats and love bombs are likely next.

posts: 5011   ·   registered: Mar. 31st, 2014   ·   location: United States
id 8677836
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BlueRaspberry ( member #76065) posted at 4:26 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

Legatus,

You wrote

She said she was writing me a letter. She said she knows he is bad and she wants me and she's going to prove it to me

If you want her out of the master bedroom, then tell her she can start proving how much she cares about you by moving to the spare bedroom. This will help you heal. If she balks, refuse to read the letter she wrote until she moves. Once she moves with all her things, place a lock on the door.

posts: 231   ·   registered: Dec. 29th, 2020
id 8677847
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Marz ( member #60895) posted at 4:32 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

It sounds like you are finally getting out of the denial phase.

This isn’t a court of law. You don’t need a smoking gun or concrete evidence. You only need enough to satisfy you.

From what I’ve seen a long term affair with contact is a sexual affair.

Your wife and her OM are more skilled than most cheaters. There’s a reason for that secrecy. Her mistake was thinking the so called marriage was worth so much to you that you’d never leave her. She’s in a panic now and will do everything possible to preserve her comfy lifestyle. You were never supposed to figure this out.

Bottom line is you never meant that much to her. Her actions say so.

posts: 6685   ·   registered: Oct. 3rd, 2017
id 8677865
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 Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 4:39 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

Here's the letter. She emailed it. I plan on telling her I haven't read it. I cut the first paragraph out because she shared something from her childhood she claims she's never shared with anyone. Nothing sexual, but it doesn't seem right to post it here. Here's the rest of it. In my mind it doesn't change anything for me, but I'm curious what you all think about it. I changed his name because I think I'm supposed to do that on this forum.

As we have discussed in the past, I have a hard time being vulnerable with those I care about and admitting my weaknesses. I believe being vulnerable has a lot to do with being wrong and discussing your faults. I think that is why it is so hard for me. I am not sure if this came from my mom, probably. It was easy to ask her questions or admit fault with her. And we both know she doesn’t admit any fault or take responsibility for anything! I didn’t realize this was such a problem for me. I kinda just figured I had trouble sharing stuff (being vulnerable) with people and I’d figure that out someday in therapy. And weirdly, the closer I was to someone and the more I cared about them, the harder it was to be vulnerable (you, my mom). Because they know me and they might judge me and they might not love me anymore. I have been working on this though, and I have realized how much has to do with my ability to admit I was wrong. I need to be able to be wrong and still realize that I will be loved—by you, by my family, by myself. This is hard for me. I like to think I have it all together but I don’t. I am a super-flawed human, but I am working on that….thus telling you about my car accident. (Please don’t use this against me in the future)

I have been thinking a lot about why I did what I did. I am not making excuses, but I think we both know that if we know why someone did something, it makes it easier to understand.

Back when I started talking to Barry all the time again (there was a span of a couple years where I just didn’t hear from him a lot), I was feeling very lost. I was feeling like I didn’t know who I was anymore beyond a stressed out housewife living in conservative West Michigan feeling like she didn’t fit in anywhere. I talked with you about this then too. You thought maybe it was you that I was sick of or didn’t like anymore, and it was never you. It was always me. Its like Esther Perel says: its not about the betrayed or the affair partner, it’s about the cheater. Its about them trying to recapture a part of themselves they have lost. Ever since I heard that on a podcast, that’s all I can think about. Its so true. It was me feeling lost and less-than and not in touch with who I was anymore. And so I reached out to someone who was there when I had a career I was proud of when I didn’t have kids to drag me down. (obviously, looking back I should have reached out to you more. I should have tried to talk to you more about how I was feeling and that was a mistake on my part)

I was scared that I would never feel like myself again. But I got there. and it wasn’t Barry who got me there, it was me! it was being proactive in my life and our life together: my therapy, our therapy and the nurturing of our relationship (and I know you don’t believe me, but this is the most important to me and the thing I have valued the most), me working oncall, you and I building our business together, work on myself and being honest with my mom about my feelings (not that it got me very far)……all of these things have renewed my confidence and my sense of self-worth. I don’t feel lost anymore and you are a huge part of that.

Why then would I start up messaging Barry again? I’ve also been thinking lots about this. Obviously, I have more work to do (its never-ending isn’t it?), but I have some preliminary thoughts that I wanted to share with you.

I truly owned up to the fact that it was an emotional affair when I came to that revelation in counseling with you. I really believe that I was wrong and felt (feel currently and for forever) remorse and shame, but it was still really hard for me to admit that I was wrong. It was ok to admit it to you but not myself for some reason. I’m not 100% sure what I was seeking by contacting him again….all I can think of is validation that I wasn’t wrong because even though I knew I was, I didn’t want to be. I didn’t want to be wrong about the agreements you and I had in place (it was easier to think you were controlling), I didn’t want to be wrong about Barry being a friend (turns out he was a scumbag, because no friend would act like that and I 1000% see that).

I know you have no reason to believe me and I don’t blame you, but the contact felt awful and terrible and it turns out I was WRONG. And now I am sitting in a giant pile of my wrongness and I have never felt so terrible. I know I made this steaming pile, and now I lie in it. Maybe this is a life-lesson that I really needed? Maybe this is the way I grow? But I didn’t want to grow by hurting you….

I realize now you are NOT trying to control me. I realized now that barry is NOT a good human being. I realize now just how much I hurt you. And most importantly, I realize now how WRONG I was/am. I know this doesn’t seem like a big deal (and I knew it before, of course), but the fact that I am even putting all this stuff in writing is huge for me. It is me being totally vulnerable with you. That is what I need to do for you to trust me, at least it’s a step I hope. I have changed. I can be vulnerable with you like no one else. Please let us be vulnerable together and heal.

I know I don’t deserve it, but please please give me another chance! I have grown so much, I have realized so much and I have such excitement about our future together. You say I don’t want to talk about retirement, but I do!! Sometimes it feels overwhelming to me since we have so much going on in the present, but I try to share those feelings with you when you want to talk about it and I’m not feeing it. Doesn’t mean I don’t want it. I do! Especially after the other day when we talked all about living somewhere else for a couple months and traveling and hiking and all that stuff. I do see you in my future!! You and the kids are my future—I want us to be together with them, for them. They need us and I need you! I don’t have much other family. You are my family, and family fixes stuff and works on it. I will do anything!!! I will prove to you that I know I was wrong and that I want YOU and that you can trust me. You can on everything else and I know I’ve given you no reason to trust me on this, but you can. Let me show you…….PLEASE. I love you and I am so sorry that I hurt you. This is my biggest regret. All of this. Its all my fault. I need to fix it and I can. Love can fix it. Let me show you. We have been through so much, I don’t want to lose all that now. all the foundation, the work, the love, the time, we have something amazing that can rebound. I know it can. Just give me a chance. Give US a chance. Give our family a chance.

I LOVE YOU.

posts: 82   ·   registered: Jul. 21st, 2021
id 8677877
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Stevesn ( member #58312) posted at 4:48 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

Legatus

I want to suggest Something.

I fully understand not giving her a chance. I dont think you should. I also understand falling out of love w someone who would do what she has done.

But instead of saying “there’s nothing I can think of you can do” how about saying “you are welcome to try, but I gave you every opportunity to care about me enough the last few years that you’d give me the truth and have me and no one else in your heart, and you failed time and time again. So you are welcome to try and rebuild what you have destroyed, but I can give no guarantees for you that it will work.”

And then ask for this as a start:

“I need a timeline of every interaction you and he have ever had. Tell me everything you did and said. Tell me each time he was physical with you, who inserted what where, and what you felt and were thinking at the time. Also what you felt about me at the time as well.

That will be a start. I may or may not have questions for you about each time. You may have to write many drafts.

And your claims it was never physical are insulting to me. If you are truly all in you’ll be completely honest about this. It’s cruel how you’ve lied about that all these years. A woman who truly loved me would at the very least give me the gift of honesty.

And by the way, anything you write you will be polygraphed about. And if you’re not willing to do that to prove what you write is true with no ommissions, don’t waste my time.

And if this man is still anywhere in your heart you’ll be wasting uour time as well. He helped uou destroy your family. You are as much a piece of shit as he is for that.

If you are truly all in you’ll admit that to anyone. Because nothing more or less than it is true.

And in that vein, you will write an honest letter to his wife, telling her everything you did an lied about to her and me. She deserves the truth as well.

If you are truly ALL IN as you say, you’ll want to do all this. You’d want to do it for me and for you. I don’t believe you are truly all in. Prove me wrong.

Also you will work to recover any and every text or email or message you ever sent him. Even the most incriminating ones. Even the ones where you said how much you’d want to have sex with him or how uou love him. I know they exist. If you don’t provide them then I will know you are still protecting yourselves.

And last of the first steps you need to take is starting individual therapy with an infidelity specialist. I think uou are all talk and no action. Again prove me wrong.

All this needs to be done with absolutely no guarantees from me that I can fathom being in your life again as anything more than a coparent. A truly remorseful cheating partner would see that and take the initiative and do these things. In fact you should have started them already without me asking or suggesting.

I am left with the complicated feelings of still loving you but hating who you’re are. You are not a good person, in any way. Can you become someone who has integrity and is seen by others as safe and giving? Perhaps. Only you can make that happen.

I won’t stop moving on without you. But I will be watching what you do. and how you proceed. Remember if you are protecting him and yourself, you’re still having an affair. You’ve done terrible things. What you do from this point on will define who you are and how uou are remembered. “

Then leave it be. Do things yo help you heal yourself. Talk to a trauma therapist. Talk to a lawyer. Start the D process as slow or as fast as you want. She’ll do what she’ll do. Maybe someday she can become a person you can be proud to call a friend again let alone a partner or wife. But you have no control over that. So stop trying.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 1:47 PM, July 23rd (Friday)]

fBBF. Just before proposing, broke it off after her 2nd confirmed PA in 2 yrs. 9 mo later I met the wonderful woman I have spent the next 30 years with.

posts: 3199   ·   registered: Apr. 17th, 2017
id 8677887
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guvensiz ( member #75858) posted at 4:49 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

Legatus

After your last update and you said that you are done, I wouldn't insist that you talk to OBS and know more. I was only suggesting this considering the possibility of R.

If what you know is enough for you to D, it's ok. If your tendency shifts towards R in the future, you will need to know the whole truth.

posts: 501   ·   registered: Nov. 14th, 2020
id 8677891
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Marz ( member #60895) posted at 5:02 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

This wasn’t my fault. Even though I’m a grown adult woman and knew better but did it anyway.

You must give me another chance (do it for the kids). This is classic cheater script. When was she thinking about the kids, marriage, you and the family? Um, never until possible consequences came up. Pease don’t stop feeding me cake!!!

I loved you so much that Barry and I developed a fool proof and very complicated scheme where we could continue our affair without you finding out. What you didn’t know couldn’t hurt you. I’m sure you understand that.

So please give me another chance. I’ve only cheated on you for three years and it was only an EA. Even though we spent the night together alone we only watched TV and played some checkers.

In the future when I cheat again I’ll double down on the underground thing and you won’t find out this time. Trust me. I can get better at this!

Love you

[This message edited by Marz at 11:06 AM, July 23rd (Friday)]

posts: 6685   ·   registered: Oct. 3rd, 2017
id 8677910
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Marz ( member #60895) posted at 5:10 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

Reflect back. You have put in 3 years of your life in this you’ll never get back. Life is short.

Dump this cheater and have a life. You will only remain in limbo if you allow it.

You can’t save this marriage. That would be up to her. What has she shown you so far?

The best predictor of the future is past history.

[This message edited by Marz at 11:11 AM, July 23rd (Friday)]

posts: 6685   ·   registered: Oct. 3rd, 2017
id 8677920
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BlueRaspberry ( member #76065) posted at 5:50 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

Legatus,

I suggest following Stevesn's recommended course of action. This will help you find out what actually happened and expose the affair to the OBS and others. You can (and probably should) proceed with divorce by serving her, since the divorce process takes some time and it provides your wife with the incentive to comply with your requests quickly.

[This message edited by BlueRaspberry at 11:50 AM, July 23rd (Friday)]

posts: 231   ·   registered: Dec. 29th, 2020
id 8677942
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guvensiz ( member #75858) posted at 5:54 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

Impressive letter. She seems to have worked on self-healing for a long time.

But there is a small truth that she lied to you only 2 days ago. So even though she understood everything and found the truth, she chose to continue cheating on you and would have continued if she hadn't been caught.

I couldn't understand why Barry was suddenly scumbag. Isn't his ingenious solution to hiding their A worthy of praise? Moreover, she says that she is the one who started contacting after a long time.

Why is she using infidelity terms, Esther Perel quotes etc. Weren't they just friends?

What does she mean by saying "a good friend, a good human being wouldn't act that way"? (Although I said the same in my own post, but she probably isn't reading me.) Continuing friendships knowing that her husband is uncomfortable with it? But that shouldn't be such a big deal since he didn't even attempt to go beyond friendship when the two of them were alone in his house.

Don't buy her agitation; you, kids, family, us, future etc. You gave her too many chances and she always pushed her chances unless she faced the consequences, now it's time to face it.

posts: 501   ·   registered: Nov. 14th, 2020
id 8677943
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Marz ( member #60895) posted at 6:02 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

IMO you’ve wasted enough time/life on this. Let her go. She’s already gone anyway. She just doesn’t want consequences.

You will never get the full truth. You know enough.

Do you really want to tie up another year or two in this?

Esther Perel - why did you make your wife cheat on you?

[This message edited by Marz at 12:04 PM, July 23rd (Friday)]

posts: 6685   ·   registered: Oct. 3rd, 2017
id 8677944
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clouds777 ( member #72442) posted at 6:30 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

Her letter is a very obvious attempt to guilt you back into submission.

Like others have said move forward. Tell her you need her to move out of the bedroom immediately to heal. Then move her stuff stuff add a lock.

Move forward with divorce and use some language posted aabove.

She can show her remorse by doing what YOU want and giving you a an amicable favorable divorce. Period. Whatever else she suggest is completely irrelevant.

She is freaking out because she lost control of you and you will see her desperation switch to anger and love bombing pretty quickly. It's crazy how all cheaters use the same scripts.

posts: 133   ·   registered: Jan. 1st, 2020
id 8677948
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Rufus ( new member #75754) posted at 6:30 PM on Friday, July 23rd, 2021

I did not think her letter said very much at all. It was kind of devoid of substance. I took away these things: 1. Mea Culpa. 2. Throw Barry under the bus. 3. She listens to Esther Perel podcasts (huge danger sign given her demonstrated difficulty with fidelity and facility with deceit) and 4. You should do this for me -there are things I have pictured that I still want from you.

posts: 29   ·   registered: Oct. 28th, 2020
id 8677949
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