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She still doesn't see herself as the 'bad guy', asking to be friends is so typical of cheaters who think they're great people who do no wrong, don't understand the trauma and if you become their friend they can ignore the trauma caused and neatly wrap it all in a pretty bow and go 'ta-da, see everyone, he is my friend, we split amicably' It's insulting. If she wants to be friends get her to read 'not just friends' by Shirley glass, she won't because she is a lazy cheater who thinks she hasn't done anything wrong, but she should because she has no understanding the real damage done.

I'm so sorry about your dog CCB, that's heartless on her part, really stone cold heartless and again shows she doesn't think she has done anything wrong, she destroyed the marriage, hurt you and doesn't give up the dog??? Are you sure you don't want to fight for it? how long have you had the dog for? If you haven't already maybe call your dad to vent about that, maybe a cry, it's so cold on her part

Get out, move up your plans, stay with your folks, pack up and just move away from it all (*whispers* and take the dog with you.)

[This message edited by LostInHisFog at 6:13 AM, July 12th (Monday)]

CheescakeBaker,

Your STBXW has no clue what love is. Pity her because she doesn't have the ability to form that strong emotional bond.

Her life would be a string of Marks and a collection of various animals and that is how she will end up, lonely and abandoned save for the animals.

It hurts you now because you love and can love and you will find someone who can love to love you back. You will have a family and children and a bright future ahead of you if you so choose and work towards it.

She will be swinging from Mark to Mark until her looks fade and no more Marks would want her.

I pity her and wish you strength and luck.

One foot in front of the other brother, just make sure the steps carry you to the place you need to be.

That is good news. She still doesn't accept her faults though. So sorry about your dog, you should fight for it if you really want to keep it.

All the best!

She's still lying and minimizing the A.

Firstly, It's not the first time she's heard that her relationship with Mark is bothering you, it was impossible not to notice that. But she has to say it like that, because she can't say "I didn't care".

Second, it's a lie that their A isn't physical. We are not here in court, and the cheater, liar suspect does not benefit from the doubt, especially if the evidence is so against her. This also already makes her first words a direct lie.

Her purpose was revealed later; be friend with you. So is that sincere? No, of course, just by being friends with you, she's trying to protect her own reputation, to show that the D was not due to cheating but to ordinary marital problems.

It doesn't make sense for someone who wasn't keen to be friends with you even during your M to want to be friends with you after a D and when you're on the other side of the country.

I know I've said it before, but I want to repeat it because nothing hurts more than when a liar thinks she/he's making the other person believe her/his lies. Let her know you're not buying these. I'm not saying to go and discuss these with her, engage with her, especially avoid them anyway. But for example, during a conversation like yesterday, when she said that her A wasn't physical, you could say something like,"Look, it doesn't matter to me from now on, I don't want to argue about it either, but I'm tired of it now, don't keep repeating that it's not physical, stop lying, I don't believe you, don't think I'll start believing you when you say that a thousand times."

Don't worry about the 1% chance that she's telling the truth, you have ample reason not to trust her and you wouldn't be doing her an injustice. Let her worry, if she cares of course.

[This message edited by guvensiz at 7:24 AM, July 12th (Monday)]

But at least there was some ounce of remorse or acknowledgment coming from her. She asked if we could still be friends after all of this. Ha! I said no.

Not remorse. Just the regrets of consequences for being caught. She’s still lying and minimizing too. EA and lots of personal one on one contact = physical affair. That’s reality.

You are correct. Definition of friend = loyal, honest, trustworthy.

Let’s be friends is right out of the cheater script. Nothing uncommon at all.

She acknowledged that while she felt like not crossing any lines or boundaries physically would have prevented it from being “cheating”, she didn’t realize until I started talking more seriously about it to her that the emotional affair aspect of it all was very real and very devastating to me.

Sorry but it’s all bullshit. She didn’t give a damn. Her actions say so. REALITY

[This message edited by Marz at 7:36 AM, July 12th (Monday)]

In fact, she apologized for not being easy to deal with lately and for not handling the whole Mark thing very well. She acknowledged that while she felt like not crossing any lines or boundaries physically would have prevented it from being “cheating”, she didn’t realize until I started talking more seriously about it to her that the emotional affair aspect of it all was very real and very devastating to me.

Better late than never, I suppose, but it really doesn't fix a thing. You came to her openly and honestly with your heart on a plate and she treated your valid concerns as inconsequential. I've read some of your posts and I agree-- she really wasn't that great of a partner in a general sense.

She asked if we could still be friends after all of this. Ha! I said no.

Sorry, sweetheart. Friends don't do this kind of thing to each other and then just be able to forget it. This is such a massive deflection of guilt, designed to make the cheater feel good about themselves by showing the world how "evolved" everyone is because see, we split amicably. Many (not all, but many) cheaters try this post divorce. Mine did. As you probably have already figured out, that's for them, not you. What would you do with this bizarre new friendship with her? Compare dating notes? Give her advice from the male point of view about how to handle her latest "Mark"? Your response was appropriately brutal. Well done.

She is going to get to keep our dog though.

Hmmm.. well, I think I predicted this one. Don't let it delay things, don't get involved in a protracted fight over this. You have a life to live, all on your own. I love dogs, I own three. But if I had to sacrifice them to my cheating ex spouse I would have-- because I would know she would be doing this just to get a cheap victory. let her have it, and get a new life companion.

Dictum, great comments.

Your STBXW has no clue what love is. Pity her because she doesn't have the ability to form that strong emotional bond.

I often wonder, when I read postings of infidelity, what the cheater's mindset is. Where was her (or his!) head that said it was okay to start feeling this way, to decide to see the other person, to start that journey of 1000 poor decisions that end up with them cheating together. It really does start somewhere. How does a person like this even view the concept of "being married"? What does it mean to them?

Because.. if there's not even the slightest twinge of apprehension, why in the world DID they get married?

Cheater speak “I didn’t think there was anything wrong with being friends with the AP and meeting for lunch or coffee b/c we are just friends and yes, we hang out and I know I didn’t tell you b/c it would upset you blah blah blah……”

Meanwhile the sexual aspect has been going on for some time.

Cheaters KNOW it’s wrong. They just choose to cheat snd look to justify the Affair any way they can.

the whole Mark thing

Such a liar, this woman.

Fact: you repeatedly came to your wife asking her to stop her inappropriate relationship with Mark. She refused.

Fact: this went on for months. EA's rarely go on for months without progressing to sex. If they deep kissed at all, then it was a physical affair.

Fact: something led to both of them changing jobs almost almost simultaneously - it is likely they were forced to resign.

Fact: she was alone with Mark on at least two occasions at his home until at least 2 am. This is simply unacceptable behavior for a married woman, and it is not something a woman would ever do unless it were physical.

Adults have sex. Women like sex as much if not more than men. Women will rarely put themselves into a position regarding timing, location, and circumstance where sex is likely unless they want sex to happen.

This woman who was your wife wanted to fish around to see if you would accept her continuing lies and agree to “be friends” -- this is so she can sell a lie to her friends and family when she introduces Mark and protect her self image. The image of faithfulness and purity is important to her and she knows it looks shady to future partners she could not be faithful for a short time.

If you haven't yet, tell her family exactly what has been going on. Not for revenge, not to “get them on your side” but so the lies will stop and you can live in truth.

Then next her and move on.

In fact, she apologized for not being easy to deal with lately and for not handling the whole Mark thing very well. She acknowledged that while she felt like not crossing any lines or boundaries physically would have prevented it from being “cheating”, she didn’t realize until I started talking more seriously about it to her that the emotional affair aspect of it all was very real and very devastating to me.

Not being easy to deal with lately?!? Not handling the whole Mark thing very well!??!? What did she even mean by this. She spent the past several months giving all of her emotional energy towards Mark and none towards you! That goes far far further than being a bit snippy for a week, or not handling an interaction smoothly.

So was her plan all along to keep hanging out with Mark and 'dating' him while you sat at home this whole time? Did she at least acknowledge an EA?

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 1:24 PM, July 12th (Monday)]

What did I do wrong? Why wasn’t I good enough for her? What does she see in the other guy that I don’t have? Literally every other person in my life who knows us both has constantly told me about how great of a guy and a husband I am…why did she go feel unfulfilled? Why didn’t she try and talk to me about the issues she was having with us? Why did she cheat on me? What did I do to deserve this? Why did she stop having sex with me? Was I not good enough? Does she not think about how any of this might make me feel?

What you did wrong was picking her to be your wife. You picked a bad one there mate. Do better next time.

The rest of all that stuff, that's on her. Sounds like she has a broken personality, low empathy, selfish.

You're still a young man, your whole life's ahead of you. Get this behind you as soon as you can and start moving on.

In fact, she apologized for not being easy to deal with lately and for not handling the whole Mark thing very well. She acknowledged that while she felt like not crossing any lines or boundaries physically would have prevented it from being “cheating”, she didn’t realize until I started talking more seriously about it to her that the emotional affair aspect of it all was very real and very devastating to me.

She almost seems to understand, maybe what she did. I doubt it. My experience with my wife's EA was that she didn't want to call it an affair or cheating for quite a long time. But the fact of the matter is that it was an *affair* and did constitute *cheating*. It wasn't real to you, it was just real.

This is nothing close to remorse, even if it is a small show of empathy. She continues to minimize and believe she did nothing wrong. She thinks that you simply have a difference of opinion on the wrongness of her actions, and she can see your point of view.

Not being easy to deal with lately?!? Not handling the whole Mark thing very well!??!?

To her, it was "the Whole Mark thing".. to the OP it was "my whole married life unraveling"

Even now, at the 11:59 on the doomsday clock, she doesn't get what she's done!

All valid points made here.

She did not admit to an EA. When I characterize it as such, she refuses to accept or admit that she cheated. I expected that. At least she can see that I've been hurt, and can see from my point of view how pained I have been.

Whatever.

I'm going to move on. I know my painful journey will continue...and there will be lots of ups and downs...but I will keep pressing on.

"The whole Mark thing"

Should make that the new title of this entire thread. So much said with such gobsmacking minimization.

As I never tire of quoting:

"This is the way of an adulterous woman: She eats and wipes her mouth and says, 'I've done nothing wrong.'" (Proverbs 30:20)

The Proverb could easily be flipped to adulterous man, too, but it applies perfectly well to your WW, CCB.

You don't have to be Jewish or Christian to appreciate the wisdom here. Notice the double entendre. Eating forbidden food, and probably a reference to oral sex (the common minimizing back stop of so many WW's). The writers of Scripture knew as much about these matters 3,000 years ago as we do today -- perhaps more.

The only thing you need to realize is this is who she is, was and will probably always be. At some point this will be someone else’s problem to deal with. Behavior repeats.

A lot just can’t bring themselves to see it because it’s to painful. Make no mistake she is a full blown cheater.

She doesn’t have to admit to it for it to be true. Cheaters lie lot. Even to themselves.

[This message edited by Marz at 2:12 PM, July 12th (Monday)]

My H REFUSED to admit his first 4 year EA was an EA. He refused to discuss it. I KNEW it was going on - I knew from the moment I met this girl she was very interested in my H. But he refused to acknowledge or validate everything I knew was going on. This was in the 1990s before the term EA was around.

It is interesting to note he did admit to the EA to his last OW.

He knew it was wrong and the fact it occurred all along.

That caused more problems in our marriage during R than the fact he had an affair and wanted to D me.

Your wife calling this “the whole Mark thing” is a huge red flag. She knows she’s wrong she just is a disrespectful spouse (and person) who thinks she’s smarter than you.

She will never be remorseful - based on my past experiences. I’m sorry to say that but I found it to be true.

You deserve much better.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 8:53 PM, July 12th (Monday)]

At some point be prepared for her to realize what she has done and try to scramble to make it all right again. She may even begin to actually admit to her affair. Emotional yes and perhaps she’ll even say it had become physical.

You’re head is screwed on straight right now but you should practice what you will say if indeed she does finally come crawling back.

And the right answer is to tell her that words are cheap. It’s action, empathy and remorse that make for a truly good candidate for reconciliation. And it’s not just saying she’ll start that work, but it’s actually doing it, for months and years that actually means anything.

If that happens I’d recommend you make it clear that your path remains the same until she has actually changed and become a safe partner, for anyone, in the future. You’re moving on and give no guarantees that even if she does that work, that you’ll want anything to do with her in the future.

She needs to change for herself. Who she is right now, as someone with the flimsiest of boundaries, is not good to any future partner, whether it’s you or anyone else.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 2:33 PM, July 12th (Monday)]

Strength to you as you move on with your life.

She will never admit to any wrong doing, as then she would have to admit that her deliberate actions and conscious decisions did in fact lead to the D.

Have you ever asked why it was ok to date another man whilst being married? Going out for drinks, meals hom visits are dates.

One day at a time.

She did not admit to an EA. When I characterize it as such, she refuses to accept or admit that she cheated. I expected that. At least she can see that I've been hurt, and can see from my point of view how pained I have been.

Of course she won't admit to an affair, although she knows it within herself that they are indeed having an affair. The terms she use to describe her activities with Mark, i.e. 'date nights', wedding events as his partner, pot sessions and card games 'til 2AM... yeah, right... it wasn't an affair... it's a forbidden love story which is already bound to fail and it's already showing signs of failing.

I'm going to move on. I know my painful journey will continue...and there will be lots of ups and downs...but I will keep pressing on.

It's a painful journey, that is the truth! It will slowly fade as time goes by, especially when you keep yourself busy as you're doing right now. You'll be in a better place in due time.

Good luck on your new journey and all the best!