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Wayward not bothered at all by scenes of adultery

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OwningItNow posted 4/26/2021 21:15 PM

Other than scheduling time to talk, my IC has not really given me any action plan to try and draw her out, only saying "she's not ready."

My IC, always the optimist, says these are good signs that we're in a better place than I would have you believe.

An optimist about the M, but who is representing your interests? Certainly not this IC. Her client seems to be the M.

I've had a lot of IC in my life with many different therapists. I am simply not understanding this IC's attitude and have never had an IC advocate so strongly for an R, essentially encouraging me to wait or suck it up or give it time, all while I have been wronged by this person. Never. No IC has ever done this. They support me, not my continuation of the R above all else. ICs always advocate for strength and strong boundaries and not accepting crap behavior from the people in our lives. The advice you are getting sounds like advice an MC would give, not an IC. (Which is why MCs are often useless.) Is this lady an MC by trade?

I don't know if I like your IC or her lame advice. I think it's faulty guidance and not serving your mental health whatsoever.

Eta: there will never be a time when your WW is "ready." Cheating101. That day never comes. If avoidance was not her modus operandi, she would not have cheated in the first place. You need stronger boundaries with your WW to get her on board, not weaker. Your posts always sound like you are the wayward. As others have said, how very convenient for your avoidant WW.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 9:19 PM, April 26th (Monday)]

HowCouldSheDoIt posted 4/26/2021 21:19 PM

Ellie:

whether your marriage survives this or not, you will have to deal with this in your own self

I'm doing quite well myself, I really am. I feel like if she wasn't in my life, I could move on pretty quickly. An analogy might be the coworker that you just don't see eye to eye with, if you're not working with him, you're fine, all is well. But when you're at his desk, trying to get a project done with him, it's tense. That's what it feels like. Don't get me wrong, I do love her and want to stay married, but as far as the adultery goes, it won't be an issue if I don't have to try to work with the person that hurt me so deeply. I can see it taking a while to start dating again, but generally I'm doing great personally.

But with her, it feels like I'm a battered spouse; she took two of the kids for the weekend and when she got back and I saw her, I got this panicked fear like she was going to hurt me again. It went away, but it's very strange what adultery does to you. I'm 6'2" and 220 lbs athletic. I shouldn't be scared at all but I tell you it was a panic that went through my blood.

As far as making the marriage comfortable, I agree with you but I tend to give her some slack because I did mistreat her and feel bad about it. I also try to identify with her pain, and in coming clean of her own actions. I do tend to see that as different when we don't have the lying and the deceit.

Someone on this thread suggested a very good therapist, I called her and she texted me on Friday, I was hoping to hear from her today but perhaps I will tomorrow. I am hoping a new therapist can breath some life into my efforts.

HowCouldSheDoIt posted 4/26/2021 21:28 PM

The advice you are getting sounds like advice an MC would give, not an IC. (Which is why MCs are often useless.) Is this lady an MC by trade?

It's a he, and he does all kinds of counseling, MC and IC.

When I contacted him I needed to work through some of my own issues, and I told him I wanted to stay married. If I told him I wanted his help to strengthen and ultimately leave the marriage, I'm sure he would do that too.

Do I like him? Meh... he's OK.

HouseOfPlane posted 4/26/2021 22:06 PM

Part of my view comes biblically; Jesus forgives when you repent. In that order, repentance, then forgiveness. If you don't want forgiveness, He won't offer it.
Has she asked for forgiveness? Directly?

Sorry, too lazy to scan the full thread and see if you already mentioned it.

HowCouldSheDoIt posted 4/27/2021 07:58 AM

Has she asked for forgiveness? Directly?

Yes, once, during the MC led apology, and the wording was something like "and I hope you'll forgive me."

I has come up since, a couple times out of frustration like "I don't know what this will look like if you don't forgive me."

My response has always been the same, I'm working hard on forgiveness, I don't feel healed enough to be able to do it yet.

HouseOfPlane posted 4/27/2021 10:59 AM

I has come up since, a couple times out of frustration like "I don't know what this will look like if you don't forgive me."
Well...it is a leverage point, then. A chance for you to help her to help you.

I'm a fan of the Dread Pirate Roberts approach from The Princess Bride. "Good night, Westley. Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning."

Tell her you'll take it day by day.

Sending strength!

HowCouldSheDoIt posted 4/27/2021 11:20 AM

HouseOfPlane:
I know what you mean but I wouldn't use those words.

I literally can't forgive her while I have this hurt/anger in my bloodstream. It's getting better but as you know, the purpose of that anger is to protect you from further hurt. So it has to abate.

HouseOfPlane posted 4/27/2021 12:08 PM

HouseOfPlane:
I know what you mean but I wouldn't use those words.
I'm not a fan of going to prison for death threats, so I'll agree.

You can replace the word "kill" with "divorce", though, and it'd probably be worth trying.

sisoon posted 4/27/2021 13:37 PM

and I hope you'll forgive me
That's not a request for forgiveness. That's a passive-aggressive bid for forgiveness.

HowCouldSheDoIt posted 4/27/2021 14:00 PM

That's not a request for forgiveness. That's a passive-aggressive bid for forgiveness.

Well to be fair, this apology came after only a month after d-day, and I wouldn't have felt comfortable flat out asking for forgiveness either, I probably would have tempered it a bit too.

But the way she worded it is generally in her character, she's not really a tender, sensitive person, and never has been.

nekonamida posted 4/27/2021 16:46 PM

Bluntly - your WW is not an emotional vending machine. I see a lot of you saying, "I do more X, maybe she'll do Y," and it does not work that way. She's a complex human being with a whole lot invested in getting through this in the easiest, most painless way for her. You can't just push her buttons and expect a remorseful WS to come out and grant you R. It's not going to happen.

I asked you a lot of questions to get you to think about how to go from what you had to what you wanted and it's clear that all of the work needs to be done by your WW but she's not doing anything to get there. This isn't a situation where you can wait for her to get there because you're not just not on the same page. You are in two completely different books. There is no path from where she is to where you need her to be for R. Think about it - did you ever wake up one day and have a major personality shift? Ever fall asleep loving country music and wake up hating it? Doubt it. And that's for a SURFACE level change. That's why her treating you nicer (outside of A stuff) and doing little things for you isn't going to work. It's all surface level and it will quickly fade as time goes on. By waiting, you're expecting her to go to bed with very little empathy for you and a general unwillingness to own her responsibility in this and wake up one day on the complete opposite moral spectrum full of empathy, care, and willing to do whatever it took to make this up you. How likely does that sound?

If she was at least accepting responsibility and working on herself, she could make a path even if she wasn't great at being empathetic and responding to your pain. There would be tools available (books, podcasts, IC, MC) for her to work towards it if she wanted to. But she's not even at this stage. She's handing off all of her responsibility to you. Imagine she's taking a test. Hand off responsibility would be like her asking you to read the books, take notes, and sit in class for her. Her unwillingness to talk about the A is like her refusing to look at any of the material the test will be on. So how is she going to pass the test when you can't take the test for her? It's similar to R for you right now because she needs to do the inner work before she can create a marriage that makes you feel safe. You can't do that for her. If she won't invest in the books, the IC/MC, and other accompanying materials to get her there, it's not possible for her to get to where you want her to be. Furthermore, it also makes her at risk of cheating again because she didn't do the inner work to go from who she was when she cheated to the safe partner she would need to be to resist future temptation.

Pointing this out to you IS NOT a call for you to manage her and make her take that major journey of change. It's so that you can accept the reality of your situation and make better choices for yourself that aren't just waiting for something that isn't going to happen. It's a call for you to focus on yourself more and detach from her. It's to ask yourself WHY you want this marriage badly enough to sit around and allow her to keep extending your pain and delaying your healing marriage wise by not stepping up to the plate. It's to ask you WHY a partner who can hurt you and think it's your job to get over it is acceptable to you. You don't have to stop loving her to start detaching and exploring moving on solo. You just have to accept that what you want in a partner and marriage (honesty, trust, authenticity, fidelity, respect, empathy) is not something she can give you.

You DO deserve better. Even if you hurt her too, you deserve better. Not a single one of us had a perfect relationship or marriage before DDay but that doesn't mean any of us deserved to be cheated on so we know what we're saying when we tell you it doesn't justify her behavior today.

A new IC for you who focuses on trauma would be a great start.

OwningItNow posted 4/28/2021 04:05 AM

What Nekonamida says ^^^^ 100%.
This is what I was trying to say.

Peace to you, HowCouldSheDoIt.

HowCouldSheDoIt posted 4/28/2021 09:01 AM

Nekonamida I really appreciate the supportive words. I probably do need a different IC, I mean this guy is OK and I have learned quite a bit but if I'm going to propose a change in direction it might make sense to start fresh with a new person with new perspective.

Something I haven't considered, which your post makes me think about, is maybe she's withdrawn because she's working on healing herself. She isn't really willing to tell me much about what it is like for her so I'm kind of guessing, but it is interesting for me to consider.

Regardless though, a new approach for me personally I think is a great next step.

HowCouldSheDoIt posted 4/28/2021 09:02 AM

OwningItNow:
Peace to you as well

HappilyMarried1 posted 4/28/2021 14:54 PM

Hello @HCSDI

I have a couple of questions after reading this entire thread. 1) You said you wife went on a vacation with "your" daughter and not our daughter. I wonder were you married before? 2) Does your daughter know about your wife's ONS and that she did it while on holiday with her right under her nose while she slept. I was just curious what she thought about the ONS herself.

[This message edited by HappilyMarried1 at 2:55 PM, April 28th (Wednesday)]

HowCouldSheDoIt posted 4/28/2021 18:49 PM

I wonder were you married before?

No, I have three children, they are all mine and hers.
Does your daughter know about your wife's ONS

My wife said she told her. The only thing I ever said to my daughter was "I understand mom told you some stuff going on and I don't want it causing you any trouble at all" and never spoke about it again to her. WW told my daughter sometime in the week before she told me. WW was upset, adult daughter asked what's wrong, and so she told her. My daughter is naive (I don't mean that disrespectfully) and the weight of it probably didn't register.

I've noticed my adult daughter a little different around me but that's about all. If she asks me any questions I will answer her, but other than that I won't say anything.

Daughter has plans to move away from home this summer. I'm a little emotional about that, and dealing with adultery doesn't help.

survrus posted 4/28/2021 19:22 PM

HowCouldShe,

You wrote, But the way she worded it is generally in her character, she's not really a tender, sensitive person, and never has been.

But that might not be how she was with OM, and a really big question is do you want to spend more years or decades with someone who does not love you like you love her. Particularly if she can love others but cannot love you.

HowCouldSheDoIt posted 4/28/2021 19:49 PM

survrus:

It's a fair question, but there still is love. I do believe she loves me.

Do we love each other the same? I don't know, we may be on each others shit-list, but on my list she's got a couple check marks after her name.

nekonamida posted 4/28/2021 23:46 PM

Something I haven't considered, which your post makes me think about, is maybe she's withdrawn because she's working on healing herself. She isn't really willing to tell me much about what it is like for her so I'm kind of guessing, but it is interesting for me to consider.

This is the kind of thinking that you will need to change. You're ascribing meaning to her actions. STOP. Truthfully, no one knows what your WW is up to other than herself. By making assumptions, you are creating future disappointments.

As it stands, she does not act as a remorseful spouse does and if healing is at all on her radar, she's doing it in the opposite direction of R because she doesn't see herself as having any problems. REMEMBER - she SAID that the problem lies with you and that you need to make changes. Logically, why would she heal herself right now given she has told you she doesn't need to work on herself? If you keep believing she is hard at work based on what you wish to be true, you will be disappointed later on when she reveals to you that she has continued doing and believing the same as she does today. REMEMBER - she's not just going to magically wake up one day someone who gets it and decides to heal themselves. LISTEN to her words and actions right now. Even if they say things that you don't want to hear.

You don't have to make any decisions right now but you have to see the reality in front of you without minimizing it or twisting it to fit what you want to be true. You can't deal with a problem you refuse to acknowledge just like she can't heal herself and make changes she won't acknowledge are needed. You need to see what she does and listen to what she says in order to make good decisions for yourself.

[This message edited by nekonamida at 11:49 PM, April 28th (Wednesday)]

TwoDozen posted 4/29/2021 06:39 AM

OP I havenít read the entire thread so I am just replying to your original post

I was in a similar situation to you 18 months ago, similar time together, MLC, very defiant when discussing the A which of course was my fault because.... well the alternative makes her bad person.

Anyway in the weeks after dday I found my wgf not only didnít flinch at this type of content on tv she almost actively searched for it. We watched plenty of reality tv series too that constantly talked about cheating and ďbody countĒ ie the number of people they had slept with.

18 months later and I am in the process of separating. I did not see sufficient progress on her side to own her A and in the end I decided she just doesnít see As as negatively as I do and probably never will

Itís hard after 25 years to realise that the person you had spent a significant portion of your life with has a fundamentally different opinion on such an important topic.

Donít do what I did and wait for her to ďsnap out of itĒ decide what you need and tell her what those things are. And if she canít give you those things itís better to know now than in 1 years time, or 5 years time.

TD

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