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You would think i would stop questioning or feeling shocked when certain experiences or certain things are said or happen to me. I had my therapy session on Thursday and i anticipated going to it for the entire week thinking over and over what i was going to say even to the point of needing to write everything i need to say before i forget it. Every minute in those sessions could help me discover something or learn something that could be life changing for me. I was still stuck in the rut that i was in where i was feeling so shut down and avoidant still but i was also fighting it too. I got to the point to where i felt so uncomfortable in my skin and honestly had unpleasant thoughts that i hated people. My thoughts were so unpleasant to where i literally wanted to turn my thoughts off but i knew that couldn't happen so i had to do something about it.

The other night i was watching a show called 1000lb sisters where two sisters name Amy and Tammy Slayton are on a journey together to try everything in their power to lose the weight that is needed to have the gastro surgery to save their life. Amy succeeded and was able to have the surgery even had a healthy baby boy the following year. Unfortunately, her sister Tammy who was the heaviest never met her goal and although in her mind she was trying and expressed that she was eating her feelings away, when questioned by her family and doctors she scoured at them with defensiveness. And shut down. Oh how i could relate. Until she was referred to another Doctor who had a different approach when she gained another 20 pounds asked her "Why do you think you're not meeting your goal?" She said i don't know how to fix myself, i am not trying." Basically she was addicted to food. In that moment, the Doctor acknowledged with her that she admitted that she had a food addiction that she could not fix on her own and she needed more help. It was a break through moment for her and he was proud of her for admitting this to herself and others.

When i saw that scene my heart dropped. I literally wanted to scream out that's me. I keep telling myself i keep trying and i am doing this and that, but i keep getting the same results and that i am not seeing that change that i want for myself. I am clearly aware that these things take time even years, but mentally i am struggling. I know i have to dig so deep into myself to find the root of my issues, but i find myself feeling so amplified with emotions and distracted to where i become discouraged in the moments and do unfortunately external stuff to distract from it. Am i trying, am i really trying? From seeing the work others have done here including my BS, NO. That was hard to say, but it's the truth. But i refuse to give up on myself.

Now back to my session. I was a hot mess, grabbed my box of kleenex because first, i knew i was going to cry and second i knew this was going to be painful to let out. She helped me figure out that which my BS pretty much called out that i put ALL my eggs in one basket with anything that i do (most likely for control or worth) and when i fail, i go into this vicious cycle of drinking, sleeping, avoiding, shame, and the list goes on. I don't have power over anything in those moments. Nor am i honest about what the hell is really going on in those moments. I want to bury myself in the cushion fabric of the couch and do nothing. AND and I mean a BIG AND, i don't know or never have experienced self-compassion for myself which guess what? Was my meditation topic for the day. I was like crap crap crap. I was adamant about the fact that i can't fix myself and i need to be on medication. My therapist is not highly fond of encouraging medication as a part of her process looked at me with wide eyes open. She said "you got triggered, that's what happened." "And sadly, you never had healthy coping skills to get through those moments." Nope, she is so right.

She asked me several questions and recommended i see my doctor for a medication evaluation. I must admit i felt like i was trying to take the easy way out. She told me not to take Xanax because i have several addictions may be prone to becoming addicted to it. So this is where i am at. I haven't made any appointments yet and really not sure what to do. She told me to work on practicing self-compassion and to check out a self help book.

So this is where willingness comes in for me. This was the topic at my meeting this morning. The timing of this put me in trance. Look i don't know the meaning of every word is as i would pretend to know or not care to understand what it means looked it up. So in recovery willingness means, Willingness” is an integral part of recovery. “Willingness” means that you are willing to open up, let go and try something you've never tried before. I fight with willingness. I am afraid to let go. I am still very much afraid to be open. HONESTY is at the top of my list. That's where it starts for me. I am willing to tell you all that i am still afraid to let go, but willing to look at myself with self-compassion and reflect on what's happening here. With me. To look at who i am and who i want to be. Come up with a plan and commit to it.

Dunno if it helps, but you've been heard.

And FWIW, this sounds like searching (or more like spinning your wheels) to find that "aha!" moment. But IME, those "aha" moments are usually already inside of us. The thing is, we RARELY (if ever) are able to see/experience/know the "aha" if we are spinning our wheels. We just aren't in a place to let that come to us.

I hope you do follow thru with the medical eval. Medication will NOT fix you or even fix the emotions (tho some meds may make folks feel nothing, IMO that's a signal to try a different med or cocktail of meds). IME (for my own issues and my DD's BPD), the meds are a tool that may help you get to a place where you are better able to use the non-med tools you seek to acquire. IOW, the goal is to get from spinning to walking, where we all breathe better and take in better and feel better.... but we are still walking.

Have you begun any DBT work with your IC?

[This message edited by gmc94 at 1:40 PM, March 13th, 2021 (Saturday)]

Hey, Chance, good to see you posting. I only have a minute but I wanted to check in. I remember that before you said you're working with your IC on identifying and processing your feelings. Have you come across what your hot spots are, your triggers? Your "schemas" or filters, maybe? From what I'm reading, you sound really "on" or activated a majority of the time. Longtime PTSD/trauma responses can do that. Have you done any EMDR with your IC?

And I know we talked about step work before, how about the drinking? How do you feel about that aspect?

I am afraid to let go. I am still very much afraid to be open. HONESTY is at the top of my list.

There is a accompanying fear of openness and letting go that has more to do with honesty than might appear at first glance. When I think through shame, and points where I know I shut down, they were informed by irrational fears.

As such, there’s a lot of bravery that accompanies the decision to be honest. And you’re definitely developing such bravery. I say this to encourage you to continue being brave- Faith is belief absent of evidence, and faith in yourself will come as you continue to demonstrate bravery.

Echoing GMC, this

Every minute in those sessions could help me discover something or learn something that could be life changing for me.

can be a potential hurdle in your progress. I would like to encourage you to set smaller expectations for the day to day events of recovery. The challenge of having faith in the process is in accepting that we can’t see where it may take us. So while you are concerned about MISSING a potential life-changing moment in therapy, you build expectation that there is one- Which will distract you from the small experiences that could cobble together into major insights. You know that you need to let go, but you’re having trouble- That’s not uncommon for humans, we are cursed and gifted with knowledge and foresight. An additional tool to manage letting go is, IMO, consistent outreach with recovery friends. The revolutionary value in 12 Step programs is the reliance on peers who serve as living examples of recovery- 12th Step.

You have been heard. The bravery is there and will serve you well no matter the outcome. One foot in front of the other!

My mom just gave me back a book I let her borrow over idk 3-4 years ago. I don't think she read it, and only found it again because she was doing a deep spring cleaning. She doesn't really want to change. And this is something I know personally because of the work on myself and the change I would love to see in my mama, but no one can force change on a single soul. Including us trying to help our members here. We have to accept it and follow through at all cost. It's hard, no one likes doing the hard thing.

I say this gently, I have always felt that you were never really doing the work. I think you wanted to, and you would try, but ultimately it would get too hard and you would stop. You've been here now, what? 3 years? And you still struggling so much with only the beginning steps. I'm not trying to judge you harshly, I have always been your cheerleader. But, I don't know how we can really help until you are ready to roll your sleeves up and push through the discomfort.

Any way that book was called "F*ck Feelings" I really liked it, its no nonsense and straight forward, while still light and even humorous at times.

I may reread it myself.

[This message edited by foreverlabeled at 2:07 PM, March 15th (Monday)]

Honestly CAL35, I don't know if the issue is that you aren't doing the work, or if you don't know how to get your brain to do the things you want/need it to? Your story reminds me of my own in many ways. At three years out, I still felt so very lost. We'd go to MC every week, talk on SI, read the books, and so on, and it all made sense to me logically, but when it came time to make changes in myself, I just sort of caved in. For me, part of it was that I had gotten myself so deeply rooted in shame and guilt that I couldn't see past it. How exactly is one supposed to learn to love themselves when everything you know and feel about yourself says that you should really do the world and favor and just stick your head in a wood chipper? The other part of it was simply that I had been living with this "victim" mentality all my life (from my FOO roots) and didn't know how to be someone else. It would have felt no different than if someone had told me that I was actually a dog, not a person, and that in order to heal, I had to accept, and live, my life as a dog. While the instructions on that are pretty crystal clear, the actual doing of it is another matter altogether. Changing who I was and how I felt about myself was terrifying, and the fact that I knew I needed to make it happen and yet couldn't seem to... even more terrifying. I felt like a loser, and trying and failing over and over again only reinforced that self-perception. Let's face it, all WS's walk in the door with self-perception issues, and the fact that we just went and did what is arguably one of the most damaging things one can do to one's self-worth, makes it all the harder. It's like hitting rock bottom, only to take out a shovel and start digging to see how much worse it can get.

The only thing I can tell you is how things eventually turned the corner for me. To be honest, I just got sick and tired of it all. I was tired of hurting my wife daily. I was tired of being reminded of how much damage I did to our kids. I was tired of feeling like a failure every day of my life, and tired of watching myself either try and fail, or not try at all, and seeing the same results regardless. I wasn't happy, no one in my family was, and I was the cause of all of that. As terrified as I was to be alone (and being afraid of being alone was about 90% of who I was in total) I had finally gotten even more afraid of, and tired of, being the catalyst for spreading pain to the people I loved most in the world. One day, I said, "fuck it" and began to plan my exit. I'd get a crappy little apartment I could afford. I'd live alone. I'd ignore my own neediness and simply accept the fact that I'd be better off alone (everyone would) and that I would just spend the rest of my life as a hermit mostly, and that I would die alone and unloved and un-thought-about. And as much as all that sucked, it at least seemed to limit the damage and misery to me, and then my wife and kids would be free to live their lives without having to have their selfish, abusive and dysfunctional father/husband around to make their lives suck unnecessarily. It just seemed as if the most "unselfish" thing I could possibly do was to stop trying to control the outcomes. I could stop putting the burden on my wife to decide daily if we would R or D, just man-up and make the hard decision so she wouldn't have to. I was already the bad guy anyway, so if everyone hated me for giving up, so be it, and maybe it would make it easier for them to forget me, and if they forgot me, would that make life better for them?

I don't know how to explain this, other than... being willing to throw myself under the bus for the good of someone else, actually WAS an unselfish thought for the most part. I had gotten to the point where I was willing to live a shitty, lonely life so that I could free up my family to live lives where happiness and laughter and joy could exist again for them. For the first time in my life, it wasn't lip service. I wasn't looking for anyone to talk me out of it or feel sympathy for me. I was going to own it, to my detriment, to the death. I was going to sacrifice my life and happiness because it was the right thing to do. I couldn't be a better person, so better I should just go away. I was a thorn that needed to be pulled out.

That line of thought finally allowed me to "go there" when I couldn't before. It allowed me to actually own who I was and what I had done, and to do so without shame getting in the way. Owning shame makes it go away, FYI. It allowed me to actually care more about others because I was no longer worried about my own life or consequences or anything really. I was not only no longer afraid of negative consequences anymore, but I actually desired them. Because owning all of that took away all need and all effort to be defensive. It made my choices simplistic. It actually made right and wrong so much clearer. And when that happened... integrity happened. Authenticity happened. Empathy returned. Not giving a shit or even so much as a thought about my own welfare and desires meant that I had freed up the ability to care about others instead. And then everything turned around.

Somehow, by owning that shame and embracing it as "this is who I am and what I did", freed me. When I owned my shame, it no longer owned me. It no longer controlled me, or motivated me.

By deciding and recognizing that my marriage was already over, it allowed me to stop trying to control it, or manipulate her. You can't save that which doesn't exist, so instead, that freed me up to focus on other outcomes that I couldn't accept before. If she found someone new and remarried and was happy, that was okay with me now. Not what I wanted, not at all, however, it was an outcome that would have resulted in her happiness, and since I no longer had to worry about my own happiness, I was free to be happy for her, and whatever brought that happiness to her. I wanted to the one to make her happy, and I was going to try, but if I failed, I could still be happy for her, and do the right thing.

By accepting what I had done, and the fact that I really was "that person", by accepting my own disappointment in myself and learning to accept my guilt without allowing it to define me, that allowed me to remove the shame wall that blocked my way forward. I was able to put the shame in a bucket, and drop that bucket on the road, and then keep walking. The shame remains, but it remains in its place in time. I am ashamed of the things I did and the decisions I made at that point in my life, but I can also see that I have other parts of my life that I am extremely proud of, and more than that, places in life that haven't occurred yet. And now I get to decide what my story will be moving forward. I get to decide what actions and decisions to take, and I take ones that will allow me to feel good about myself long term. I learned that by owning my mistakes and misdeeds from the get-go, they never even get a chance to take root in shame, in fact, it improves my outlook for me, and allows others to retain respect for me. When people say that it feel like an anchor was removed from your ankle, it really does. When you love yourself enough to be a good person just because it's the right thing to be, everything just suddenly seems clearer, easier, less painful and more joyful, or hopeful. Sure, life still sucks big donkey ding dongs sometimes, and it always will. However, when you are a person of authenticity and integrity, then it reduces "the suck" to itself. In other words, you no longer have to deal with guilt and shame and lies and pain and fear on top of everything else. You go to bed with the clear knowledge that it is life that sucks, not you, at least, not today, and so you can live and sleep soundly.

My hope is that something in my story might connect with you as well. You don't have to be perfect, and you may not succeed in everything you want to. And I am in no way suggesting you give up on your work or your relationship! What I am suggesting is that you allow the relationship to end up where it ends up, and instead, focus on yourself. You said you don't really make an effort. Okay, so... own that. This is the point in your life where you are not making an effort. And see how that makes you feel. And don't allow me, or your spouse, or anyone here to define for you how you are supposed to feel about, just focus on accepting it, because that's who you are right now. And then, you can make choices. And you don't have to feel ashamed of whatever choice you make because you've already accepted that part of yourself. Stay that way and you are who you are. Change, and you will be who you will be. But either way, you are you, and you made a conscious choice to be that person. And just know that you can always change your mind. If you can't run today then it's okay to walk, or crawl, or just roll over. Even rolling over is more than doing nothing, and that's something, and you can decide what level to involve yourself in things that make you feel better about who you are. Once the switch flips, the changes come rapidly. It's okay to not hate yourself. It's more than okay.

CAL35,

I think an awful lot of people out there can relate to what you wrote.

I think about trying to quit smoking. I promised 25 years ago to quit when my son was born, then again 21 years ago with my second son, then when I turned 40, or my 20th wedding anniversary, etc. All miserable failures within a week. My wife used to push me to quit. Then she stopped. I got tired of smoking, my younger son started to smoke. I quit betting him if he did I would too.

Point is that it took me being ready and having a reason to want to quit.

I did it for me.

After D-Day I had an epiphany, no nothing religious, but I just decided to let go of everything and lay myself prostrate in front of my wife and be truthful. It was hard. It was a choice I was ready to make. I wish I did it years earlier. I wasn't ready then.

You have just not been ready, but it sounds to me like you are getting there now.

Just do it!

Okay i had to take some time to take in all that was said here. But you know what, this is progress for me because everything all of you said speaks my truth. I went on hiatus for almost a year because i wasn't giving this process my all. It didn't feel right being on here because i was still trying to run from myself. I was too disconnected to speak what i was feeling. I know what "doing the work" looks like. It's most of you on here including my BS. I read every response word for word and at times i had to pause and let it sink in because it was a lot said here that i needed to hear. That i needed to replace the the delusional thoughts i have been having, even some for years of my life so far with what was said. I used to feel mortified about what responses i would receive here, but i didn't bury my head in chest at all like i normally would. I need to be here. I just can't find the truth or answers any where else. I am not trying to play games with myself anymore. I am tired of what i am doing to myself and others.

@GMC94, i appreciate what you said. I am definitely discovering some "aha" moments lately. I actually scheduled myself a physical exam and to discuss my situation next week. I don't want to make any impulsive decisions. I am not trying to lean on anything, but i am really struggling mentally. Panic attacks are back today and i am trying to take steps to take care of my health. Thank you for your insight and encouraging words as always.

@leavingorbit, Thanks for taking the time to check in. I do have ideas of what some of my triggers are such as when i feel rejected, abandoned, when i don't have control, when someone is calling me out on something that is too painful for me to talk about for example. Or a big one, is when i "feel" like i gave my all to something and the result is a failure. I am pretty familiar with the Early Maladaptive Schemas such as Abandonment, Mistrust, Defectiveness, Enmeshment, and Approval Seeking. There is i believe 18 of them, but i am sure i relate to every one of them. This is a good thing to point out and to look into. I have never tried EDMR, but i see it's good for anxiety even panic attacks. As far as drinking, i shouldn't. AT ALL. Especially because of my anxiety and i am using it to self-sooth. I will tell myself "Oh i am drinking it for the taste, or because it's Friday," but that's a load of crap. I am stopping until it's safe again to drink in moderation. And yes, i am always activated an on with some serious emotional voltage. I hate it. You mentioned some really good things here, i really appreciate this.

@JBWD, What i learned from what you said is that i should not go into my sessions with high expectations, because if i don't take away what i expected from it, i will suffer because of it. At this point, i fear fear, but i need to get my power back from it. And i am definitely going to reach out to more people in recovery. I am surrounded by sober vets that i know i can learn so much from and grow because of it. I appreciate you.

@Foreverlabled, You are telling me something that i have heard so many times before i lost count. I can feel i am not trying. I don't try hard with anything. I allowed myself to believe what i thought was my truth and it buried my esteem in the ground. My BS has told me many times i am not trying. As much as i hate to hear it, and try to excuse it away. It's true. That's why i came back because i genuinely want to try. I actually bought the book you recommended UN**** Yourself and read it but i wasn't present enough too remember it. Thank you for suggesting the F*** Feelings. I HEAR U FL. I thought i was going to just say F This and get off of here, but I HEAR YOU. You speaking my truth. I am ready to get uncomfortable and roll my arm and pants sleeve up. That's why i am back. I am not scared of anything said on here anymore. I know i am getting somewhere when you guys can see exactly what's happening with me. I appreciate you FL.

@DD, Can i be honest with you? You have gave me so much good advice and i felt so connected with you and could relate so much with your story. But when i was on here and then i left, i felt like i had let you down. I don't know why, but that's what it felt like. I took everything you said to heart and it made me cry. Letting go is the last thing i have to do. The other person is on a different path and i am not a part of it. I just had the thought if that person wasn't in my life, wouldn't i need to have a path carved out anyway? Every time i hear the words, "we have to go our separate ways," i feel flushed and i compartmentalize my feelings. It's so painful and it's dangerous at the same time. But i have to stop avoiding it. I no longer have control anymore. Hell, if i am honest i never really had control over anybody or anything. It felt like i was just cornering and trapping the person to manipulate them to do for me what i needed in those moments. I feel so helpless. But i have to turn it into helping myself. I am grateful you took the time to share a part of your story and journey with me. The relationship is over. The marriage is over. It's all over. What is there to fear anymore? Nothing. My life will be so much better when i heal and do things the right way and with integrity.

@MrCleanSlate, Thank you for sharing your experience with me. I hope you are still free from those cigs. This has been years of my life and nothing ever good comes from it. Letting go is the only option. I have used and abused so many people ultimately my BS got it indescribably the worst. No person will ever give me what i need to live or be happy. I have literally been in survivor mode my entire life. Drugs, alcohol, reckless sex, you name it. Once it wears off, i still feel the same. I am not doing this s*** anymore. I appreciate you Mr. Slate.

I am going to look into all the methods and techniques mentioned here and learn to practice them. Thank you so much and bug hugs to all of you

I am letting go because i want to, not because it was asked of me...

The reason I mentioned the things I did is because there is a great need for absolute and complete desire to change. It is what will motivate and push you through all of the fear and whatever else stands in your way. Its the voice in your head that makes you say fuck it, and pushes you off the ledge into doing the hard stuff no matter how you are feeling, no matter how scared, no matter what may come of it. I like what you said, "I'm choosing to let go because I want to, not because it was asked of me" I know (well I think I know) your sole motivation has been your BS. Well, we hear it time and time again, the want to change has to come from within. And before I read that last line, I was going to come back and make mention of that.

I don't want you to think your progress doesn't show, because it does. Perhaps I was too harsh, as it seems you truly are in the beginning steps, even if it was a little delayed.

Sometimes I wish I could go back to my first year posts (sometimes I don't lol) but I struggled with fear greatly. I too feared fear. I talked a lot about my fears and my courage, fear is one of the most uncomfortable emotions I experience. It physically hurts. It can throw me straight into self preservation without even a thought about it. One needs patience in the face of pain. No quick hits. No quick fixes. Just keeping on steadily and with purpose.

The choice you have to make, Chance, for yourself, is how long you're willing to wait... how much of your life are you willing to put on hold.

Sometimes I forget just how hard it was starting out. Its like childbirth, the pain fades into nothingness. And happiness, accomplishment, gratification has replaced it. I know you think about the "end game" what the other side of healing could look like and be like, your hope for it, and I'm here to tell you its everything you imagine. The thing everyone lacks in the beginning is was it actually feels like. It's hard to articulate exactly how satisfying it is. The hard work really does pay off. I would face my fears where you are tenfold again if I was aware it would land me here today.

I mean there were times when my fear smacked me in the face so hard it would literally take my breath away. I understand throughly how paralyzing it is. You've done hard things before Chance, you made it out, you are alive and better for it. Have courage and keep going.

No stop sign...

American children are taught to reach for the sky, that anyone can rise to any level and do anything...

That's simply not true. Reality is that not everyone gets to be an Astronaut when they grow up.

The reason is that not everyone is suited or capable for every job. Not everyone is suited to be married or to be a spouse. Flat out...there are a lot of marriages ending in cheating, divorce, and so on...because the people in them can't accept that they just aren't suited to be married. They don't have what it takes to do that job. Just like they don't get to fly a space ship...because they are not astronaut material.

If you aren't spouse material, admit it to yourself and find what you are suited to and do it well.

Good luck.

@FL, you weren't being harsh. You are speaking my truth as in what i felt you were saying "C'mon what the heck are you doing? Stop moving around like a sloth." "Do your dang work!" I am happy you were able to get through this part in your process. Earlier today i asked my BS what does it mean to "let go." I see it on here, i hear it in my recovery meetings. I had the idea maybe it means to stop ruminating in the past, to let go of what i thought "was." Stop holding on to the relationship. It's ashes now. I tore it down. I know it's the fear of facing it all. BS explained her experience i literally thought of all the times i saw her cry her eyes out and sit in so much pain. And it took so much hard work to heal what i had done to her. I left her alone in that.

I went to the restroom and just fell a part. It's like i don't want to hold it anymore. I know this is what i want because it's gnawing at me. This might even be the root of everything i am feeling. I keep walking around like everything is goin to be okay but around me it's not. Everything is evolving around me but me. It's over.

@walkinghome, i had to read this a few times, but i get what you are saying. Got me thinking over here. But i knew better. All along.

[This message edited by ChanceAtLife35 at 8:44 PM, March 16th (Tuesday)]