Newest Member: Loyalandbetrayed

Just Found Out :
WS has no idea I know

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longsadstory1952 ( Member #29048) posted at 3:02 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

Despite the clinical description of the event, you have to be reeling emotionally. Be kind to yourself. You don’t say how long the affair was but I’m guessing from the content it was a year or more, withe recent encounters. The tinder thing was odd since she is looking to cheat on both her husband and boyfriend.

In a strange way, she reminds me of a caught criminal. We used to have a saying. “He’d lie if the truth would save him.”

What a way to discover the reality of the person who is the mother of 2 toddlers is. I hate to say it, but dna is in order on the kids.

You ask for next steps. The most important now is to get the D filed. The judge will automatically impose restrainers on her, both as to the kids and as to finances. This is critical now. Do not waste any time on this. Once this is done, you can breathe again.

For the next few weeks, she is going to be coming around, and you will have an inner need to punish her. If you really are set on divorcing her, just don’t. It gets nowhere and creates a defensive barrier In her that will carry over To the divorce negotiations.

By the way, my bet is that you are an engineer. Or that you should be one.

posts: 1057   ·   registered: Jul. 14th, 2010
id 8583821
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 freefaller (original poster New Member #75304) posted at 3:49 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

OK, so the divorce interpretations:

Looking back earlier in this topic, you'll see me asking "How do I ask her to abide by the boundaries if I've not (even implicitly) offered R?" and the general consensus (or my interpretaion) is that R is something I offer once I see remorse and concrete actions that suggest she is willing to do the right things to provide closure or show that she can be trusted.

The default path is Divorce *at the moment*. Boundaries allow her to prove that she's willing to do the right things.

Stevesn is correct in his interpretation - the details I shared were not clear, so apologies, Bigger, for not being precise - that's on me.

Regarding Tinder, I actually broached this with her today, and she could not explain her actions. She genuinely looked like she was struggling with what she did. She reiterated that she's never met anyone on there, which is obviously hard to verify.

I've asked her to provide me with a detailed timeline as a next step. She keeps apologising and self-deprecating but I need her to actually do something to provide clarity. Without a clear step towards openness and honesty (even when it's painful for me to see) I don't see how we can even begin to start to talk about R.

Again, I defer to your wisdom. I may not be being very clear, so if there is confusion, I can but try to explain better here.

Yeah, I'm an engi-nerd, longsadstory1952

In my heart, I would rather R, but I'm not offering that yet as I need more from her to see that she's committed to doing anything to make it work.

So far, it's not terrible:

1. She sent the NC to C and AP

2. She has a therapy session booked for today

3. She allows me to look at her phone and check whatever I need

4. She has been reiterating how sorry she is, but it's hard to see that for much worth when it could easily be regret that she's been caught

posts: 20   ·   registered: Sep. 1st, 2020
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Kaliber ( Member #74046) posted at 4:14 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

Stinger:

Agree. What are boundaries for? You are divorcing, right? Just go no contact except for logistics re the divorce.

Guys, I believe from reading this thread that freefaller strategy is to R but he is using the divorce as a pressure tactic to see if she is candidate for R before he invest in this long on painful process of R.

We did advice him to not offer the gift of R right away and to appear as he is moving on with his life.

Am I correct in my assumption freefaller?

You don't have a choice of being a victim, but you always have a choice of remaining one!

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id 8583841
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Stevesn ( Member #58312) posted at 4:47 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

Did you see what she wrote to the AP and C in the NC letters?

Did they respond and if so did you read what they wrote?

fBBF. Just before proposing, broke it off after her 2nd confirmed PA in 2 yrs. 9 mo later I met the wonderful woman I have spent the next 30 years with.

posts: 3163   ·   registered: Apr. 17th, 2017
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fareast ( Member #61555) posted at 5:01 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

Sorry you are going through this. You are doing well. No one is prepared for this shit. You are still very early in the process. Your instincts are good. You need to see actions. Right now she is reeling. That’s good. You’ve heard the phrase: you have to risk losing the M, in order to have any chance of saving the M. Exactly right. Take care of you. This gets exhausting. Take a breath. And if over the next weeks you do not start to see evidence of change and adhering to your boundaries, she is on notice of the consequences. This is not a sprint. It is a marathon.

Never bother with things in your rearview mirror. Your best days are on the road in front of you.

posts: 2794   ·   registered: Nov. 24th, 2017
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KingofNothing ( Member #71775) posted at 5:03 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

Well done indeed. I wish I had handled my situation with as much foresight and calm as you have shown. Alas, I didn’t know of SI.com back then, so my reaction was quite bitter and emotional. Ultimately unproductive. You show a clear direction, and most importantly, you are protecting yourself and the girls.

Two questions.

What is the plan for informing the children? I would advise alerting them that something major has changed, in an age appropriate manner. Tell it to them in such a way as you don’t appear to be sabotaging your wife. With her present if possible.

Secondly, and it’s a minor point of curiosity:

She wrote both NC messages (the one to C was significantly longer)

I’m assuming you saw these messages. What I’m interested in is exactly how she justified going full on NC with her friend and enabler C. This is not one of those macho “fist-pumping” moments for me... I could see this message as being the more difficult one to write, as she is admitting fault (and failure) to someone who agreed and approved of infidelity. Pride can be a terrible impediment right now.

[This message edited by KingofNothing at 11:05 AM, September 5th (Saturday)]

Rex Nihilo, the King of Nothing
----------------------------------
“If you’re going through hell, keep going. Just please stop screaming, it’s not good for morale.”
— Winston Churchill

BS 3 DDays/Attempted R, it failed. In a better place

posts: 769   ·   registered: Oct. 7th, 2019   ·   location: East Coast USA
id 8583857
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Robert22205https ( Member #65547) posted at 5:19 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

1 - Remind her that you are judging her entirely on her actions.

In view of her decisions/behavior she is a liar. Therefore, her words (even an apology) and promises mean nothing anymore.

The status of 'liar' is something she earned entirely on her own and rebuilding trust depends on her actions (taking years not days).

2 - She needs to do more than just ask what you want from her (that's her doing just the minimum).

She needs to be proactive to fix herself and make herself a safe partner.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 11:20 AM, September 5th (Saturday)]

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 freefaller (original poster New Member #75304) posted at 5:57 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

Did you see what she wrote to the AP and C in the NC letters?

yep

Did they respond and if so did you read what they wrote?

They have not (yet) responded as far as I'm aware

What is the plan for informing the children?

No idea.

how she justified going full on NC with her friend

I'm not going to give exact wording, because my phone isn't next to me, but it was something like:

I'm a fucking horrible person. All the things with AP should not have happened, and I should not have asked for your help to cover my tracks. But you did, and as my friend, you should not have done that. Going forward, we can't have any contact directly or indirectly again.

She needs to be proactive to fix herself

To her credit, she has had a therapy session today that she suggested and set up under her own initiative. She wrote the NC messages herself, allowed me to read them and sent them. She also lets me use her phone / computer whenever I want to.

I've asked her to write a complete timeline of events including details, locations and so on as part of the open and honest boundary. I will see if she takes that request seriously or not.

She does appear to be taking actions, though there are still a lot of words that I can't really take too seriously.

[This message edited by freefaller at 12:04 PM, September 5th (Saturday)]

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Thumos ( Member #69668) posted at 6:21 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

You are doing so well.

If you have not I would run recovery software on her phone this weekend. That will tell you a lot.

Also as soon as you get the timeline, schedule a polygraph. again this is to get her to come completely clean regarding things like tinder — so you can make the most informed decision possible.

"True character is revealed in the choices a human being makes under pressure. The greater the pressure, the deeper the revelation, the truer the choice to the character's essential nature."

BH (me): 50, WW: 49
Married: Feb. 1996
DDAY: Dec. 20

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josiep ( Member #58593) posted at 6:37 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

I will admit it up front, I'm dropping in on this conversation to be a nag.

I knew you were an Engineer from the get-go. And that's a great thing, I don't mean anything negative by my comment. I just wanted to caution you not to be too clinical with all that you're going through. You're never going to understand what all happened or why and I know it's hard, but you have to find a way to accept that reality. There are things in this life that just don't make sense.

And it sort of seems to me that you came here with your story and asked questions and then took what everyone said, made a "formula" of it all and applied it to the situation. And that's what you needed up to this point. And again, I don't mean anything negative but I do want to point out that nowhere in any of these pages have I gotten a sense of how you feel, of what your heart is telling you. Plus I wonder if you shared any of your feelings with your WW? Because I'm a true believer that if the WS doesn't come to understand the level of pain and hurt they've caused, they can't really ever be a true partner again. And if the BS doesn't acknowledge how much they're hurting, they will not have a happy ending.

You loved this woman and she loved you. Somewhere long the line, things went south. But please understand there is no set formula for fixing it because each person is different, each person has their own personality and emotions and coping mechanisms. And it's perfectly OK for you to still love her and to acknowledge that. You can be furious with someone you love. And it's perfectly OK to take baby steps one day and giant leaps the next and then sleep for a week before you try again. Be kind to yourself.

I just wanted to toss all that into the mix. I'd hate for you to divorce too quickly without ever processing your feelings because whether you divorce or reconcile, you will at some point be overcome with the weight of your trauma and feelings of betrayal. I just wanted you to know that and not be surprised when it happens.

BW, 70 YO; M 45 yrs., T 49 yrs.
DDay#1, 1982; DDay#2, May, 2017. Divorced.

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Robert22205https ( Member #65547) posted at 9:00 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

To her credit, she has had a therapy session today that she suggested and set up under her own initiative.

1 - did someone recommend this therapist?

2 - find out whether her therapist subscribes to the general notion that the BS contributes to the WW decision to cheat. If so, she needs to find another therapist.

3 - No more secrets. Have her give you permission to sit in on any session to observe & listen/contact the therapist to ask questions about her issues, progress, or the therapy model/treatment plan.

Why? it's very difficult to find an 'effective' therapist (lots of variation in education, training and experience as well as how to treat infidelity.

The sooner you discover she inadvertently picked a lemon the better.

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Robert22205https ( Member #65547) posted at 9:10 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

I'm a fucking horrible person.

It may be more constructive for her to think in terms of specific characteristics that enabled her to cheat and for which she can going forward recognize, control and hopefully fix.

For example, in the context of my marriage, I'm selfish, entitled, deceitful, and lack empathy for my spouse.

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faithfulman ( Member #66002) posted at 10:14 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

2. She has a therapy session booked for today

She is going to lie, minimize, blameshift, and look for validation for her actions from the therapist.

Remember, the therapist business model is repeat clients, and cheater hate accountability.

In my observation, most therapists will at least partially validate this point of view, with some bullshit of the betrayed spouse needing to own the conditions that led to cheating.

What I am saying is: Don't expect too much to come out of therapy except some revelations about her childhood or some bullshit, as opposed to: I like the dude, it made me feel good to have his attention and sex, and I really didn't care about what this would do to you or our family, it was always going to be a secret.

3. She allows me to look at her phone and check whatever I need

Not good enough. And by the way, if she is an iPhone user, recovering texts or iMessages is almost impossible as of iOS 13, maybe 12 - and trust me, I have done the research (Though phone lab has a new version, maybe they found another way)

You need to intercept her communications if you want the real truth.

4. She has been reiterating how sorry she is, but it's hard to see that for much worth when it could easily be regret that she's been caught

She is sorry - sorry she got caught. Sorry she is having to deal with her shitty actions.

Remorse already?

No way, it doesn't happen this quick, and people finding true remorse a lot more rare than you might think. People who do what your wife did are built a certain way and it doesn't change easy or fast.

***

freefaller - have you really thought about whether you can resume your life with this woman as your wife? I mean, whatever she does to "make amends", "become safe", she can't un-fuck this guy, she can't un-lie, and you don't know what else is going on, or has gone on with her in the past.

She is a liar and will continue to lie, so I recommend finding out every last piece of information as independently as you can and coming to your own conclusion about your ability to accept what she has done and keep her as your wife.

Because everything else you do follows from that premise.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 4:15 PM, September 5th (Saturday)]

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 freefaller (original poster New Member #75304) posted at 10:25 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

In terms of my own feelings, it's a bit complicated and probably a bit weird, but I'll try to explain:

Over the past six months, I've gradually become more depressed and unhappy. This was down, I feel, to small changes in my WS and her behaviour towards me. I've always had some form of mild depression, but she started being secretive with her phone, going out on trips with the girls and C more (scheduled for days when I could not make it) and becoming more distant at home (putting something on TV that I can't bear to watch, and staying there all evening. When I join her, she sits with me for 10 mins, then goes to bed), and these started to affect me more.

These small changes were nothing when taken individually, and crept in slowly, but over time accumulated, and started to make me feel isolated, lonely and unloved. This lowered my mood over a period of six months to the point that I really felt like it may be time for therapy.

When things peaked this past long weekend, I cracked. On Monday, having returned from a day with WS, C, her partner and all of the kids, I broke down. I'd felt ignored, and like I had been interrupting their fun. WS and C spoke extensively, and C and her partner did too. I tried to join in, but their responses were short, not rude, but took the momentum from the conversation.

When we got back I felt like the biggest dickhead in the world. A friendless, lost cause with no hope that others merely tolerated. I talked it out a bit with WS and she said that *I* had been the one that was being awkward with everyone and that C had asked her why I was being so quiet. C apparently asked WS "Have we done something to annoy him? He seems really moody".

At this point I broke down. I was percieving one reality and WS was telling me another was true. The opposite in fact! Had I imagined it? Was I being horrible? Maybe I can't tell what's real? Was the morning after pill I found real? Did that happen? Was I seeing things that weren't there? Was I mentally ill and delusional? Could I accidentally kill myself thinking I'm doing something else? Am I a danger to my kids or wife? My panic escalated and I became completely incapable of forming coherent sentences. Crying hysterically and distraught with fear.

I slowly calmed down by trying to force myself to breathe regularly and remove tension from my muscles. It took a bit, but I was able to regain my composure.

I resolved to get to therapy to treat what I percieved was acute anxiety and severe depression.

This all happened shortly (within a day) of me getting the evidence, and when I did, something completely unexpected happened. I felt relieved. Normal. What I received confirmed everything that I had suspected and felt. It showed me the lies I had been told and the extent to which C and WS had gone to construct the situations that allowed WS to meet with AP. It showed them complaining about me and laughing about the A, encouraging and wallowing in the excitement of it all.

My mood lifted, and I was calm. I wasn't going to die, and I wasn't a danger to anyone. If anything I was very perceptive, and felt like I had a super power almost. I don't know what this calm is (I have another appointment with my therapist soon, so I'll ask her), but I have used it to show a facade of normalcy - even happiness in the presence of others. WS even commented that I seemed much better. Back to my old self, in fact!

I've used this throughout the days preceeding the confrontation and during in order to remain completely calm.

But it's not worn off yet. I don't know how to describe my feeling in this moment. I'm calm, but almost separate from myself, like I'm just watching stuff happen through my eyes, and just doing things automatically.

I went for a bike ride today, and I can't remember any of it. It's a bit like being deeply involved in a conversation when walking, and not noticing where you've travelled to until something snaps your attention back to your whereabouts. It's not unpleasant, but I'm worried that my mood is going to either suddenly collapse, or I'll remain in this ghost-state for good.

I realise that all sounds very wooly and metaphorical. I did warn you it was going to get weird.

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Unsure2019 ( Member #71350) posted at 10:39 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

Freefaller,

Sorry you’re here. It’s something most of us never thought would happen. I must say the way you’ve taken advice and handled this is pretty amazing. It’s really hard to do what you’ve done while still navigating the initial shock and pain of having your world turned upside down.

Several things I’d like to comment on. First is you both need to get a full panel STD test. To drive home the point, I would insist that you WW seek out and set up her own appointment. Secondly, I would do a little research on you WW’s IC. If he/she is not well versed in infidelity, these sessions could just end up being counterproductive. Finally, and I think most important, is the discovery of her profile on Tinder. She’s in a full blown PA and yet she’s active on Tinder? This adds a whole new level of intent, deceit and serious issues that should scare the hell out of you. This really needs to be thoroughly understood before you even consider R. Hang in there and take care of yourself.

posts: 203   ·   registered: Aug. 21st, 2019   ·   location: California
id 8583937
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Wanttobebetter ( Member #72484) posted at 10:52 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

Man, it must be hell going through those few months before your confirmation of your WW affair. D or R I hope you came out of 'DDay' and recent confrontation stonger and much more mentally/emotionally prepared for whichever path you choose.

Many on here have given you excellent advise as to what remorse looks like and what to expect in terms of D or R. That said, you know your wife best and only you can tell if she is sincerely remorseful and worthy for the gift of R.

Best of luck and take care.

posts: 135   ·   registered: Jan. 6th, 2020
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 freefaller (original poster New Member #75304) posted at 11:00 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

you know your wife best

I'm going to thank you for being the first person to make me genuinely laugh today, Wanttobebetter. Seriously. That was just perfect :D Thank you for the kind words too. I don't think I would have been half as successful so far without the advice I have received from all of you.

WRT the IC - I'll be checking up on that tomorrow. I really hadn't considered the idea that it could be counterproductive.

[This message edited by freefaller at 5:01 PM, September 5th (Saturday)]

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Robert22205https ( Member #65547) posted at 11:26 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

What a sick group (your wife, C and her partner) of people they are. Their behavior was bad enough to cover up and enable the affair - but mean too.

Is my understanding correct, that your wife realized you were losing your mind and not only did she not have any empathy for you - but your distress added to her enjoyment/excitement?

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squid ( Member #57624) posted at 11:35 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

freefaller,

When I commented a couple days ago, I had the sense that you were resolute in your intention to D and that your plan out of infidelity was pretty sound.

Now it sound like you have since wavered from that plan. You went through confrontation and, seemingly, your WW picked you. "Yay, Pick Me Dance, over!"

She gave you the song and dance, "I never wanted to leave you", "I only ever really loved you", "I'm sorry" blah, blah, blah...Followed by some crumbs of NC letters, promises IC, and tears of self pity.

Yet you set forth boundaries. Which is just like saying, "I won't divorce you if you do the following..."

You've shown her that you aren't serious, and that so long as she acts like a remorseful WW she can still have her cake. You gave her a plan to be in self preservation mode.

I will tell you that I experienced all of what you experienced. Almost EXACTLY.

Yet here I am, nearly 4 years post D-day, almost 2 years post divorce.

I get that you want to save your marriage. No one wants to put their family through the trauma of getting divorced. I think nearly everyone here fell hook, line, and sinker for the WS song and dance.

And for some WS's, they probably meant it at the time.

But, at least for me, not so long after all of this and you're getting comfy thinking that you're R-ing, things go south. You're both supposed to be working on your own sides. You working to heal yourself. And your WW working to fix herself. But she's also supposed to be helping you heal. She is the one that destroyed you and the marriage, right?

What often ends up happening, again based on my experience, is that the WS usually gets too caught up on their side. They get too bogged down in their self pity and self hatred and "woe is me" and "I'm awful, what's the point?". They get so stuck that they can't help you. And you probably need more help than them. You're the one with the gaping gunshot wound to the chest. They're just awash in shame from having the best naughty sex of their lives and getting caught.

My point is, don't let your guard down. I'm saying this with the assumption that you now really want to R and you think it's possible.

I'll tell you in the almost 4 years since I've been on SI, I haven't seen it happen. I know there are only a few members here that I've read about in "SI Lore" that made it through the tough process and succeeded. Walloped and MrsWalloped come to mind. But they are definitely in the very small minority.

So it is possible that you can successfully R. But what I usually read about is the WS either unable to handle their side or just giving up altogether, both the BS and WS. For the BS, the A was too much. It was a dealbreaker after all.

With D, the marriage may be over. But your relationship with your isn't WW necessarily over. You get the closure you need. If she is truly remorseful, she would give you the divorce that you ask for, no questions asked.

You get your time to heal and move on. Then maybe after some time, if she's really worked on herself, you could try a fresh start.

D shouldn't be used as a tactic to get your WW to come around to the marriage. I tried it. I got similar results as you. Yet some time later my WW went astray and here I am. It won't keep her in line. Only acting like a good wife under threat of divorce won't really change her. She'll just go through the motions until you back off.

If you really want to D, then forget about boundaries and trying to enforce them. Hard 180 and detach and only talk about D and kids.

If R is still in the back of your mind, stay vigilant. You're looking at 2-5 years of constant effort and work from her before you can call R successful. No guarantees, even if she does all the work.

Good luck.

BH
D-Day 2.19.17
Divorced 12.10.18

This isn’t what any of us signed up for. But it is the hand that we have been dealt. Thus, we must play it.

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Shockedmom ( Member #44708) posted at 11:39 PM on Saturday, September 5th, 2020

Gaslighting is terrible. Being the focus of a group gaslighting must have been gut wrenching. Your WW owes you a huge apology regardless of marital status. Call her on it and make sure she understands the trauma she purposefully inflicted on you.

Validation is remarkable isn’t it? When I discovered the truth about my STBXGH the feeling of relief was intense. It seems you have found the same relief.

posts: 1059   ·   registered: Aug. 31st, 2014   ·   location: Hawaii
id 8583955
Topic is Sleeping.
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