SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

DevastedDee and KatyaCA, spot on. Couldn't have said it better myself.

As with many other women here, my XWH had far fewer sex partners than I did and yet he was the one screwing around probably into the double-digits. Funny how that happens so often.

This keeps coming up over and over on this thread, from several different women, so I thought I'd share a different perspective.

Interestingly, I as a BH was the loyal, faithful one who has only been intimate with one woman ever: my wife. For more than a quarter century. My wife on the other hand was sexually active before we dated at a young age, but never with a high number of partners (as far as I know).

I never made it an issue when we were dating, never gave it a second thought, and it never bothered me - I mean I've only been with one woman in my life, but I'm reasonably confident that the majority of vaginas are the same out there. No actual vagina dentatas to be worried about as far as I’m aware. I never felt I was "missing out" by not sticking my wang into multiple vaginas.

I didn't give it a thought until she screwed another man in our home three years ago. After D-Day when I brought up the fact I'd never strayed and had been sexually loyal and intimate with only one woman -- her, and quite active in that role -- her words to me were twofold: 1) she told me I was "sexually immature" because I'd only been with one woman, ever, and because I couldn't understand her AP sex was only meaningless sex. 2) Then she told me "that's your problem" as far my as relatively chaste sexual history.

Nota bene, this was complete and utter horseshit on her part. Having only one sexual partner does not make one "immature" unless you buy into more recent societal stereotypes. I suppose I'm counter-cultural in that regard, for my age group, but I know with confidence I'm not immature about sex. In fact, my loyalty and passionate devotion to one woman is quite mature, I would argue.

Writing it out again and looking at what she said, I'm still kind of shocked I didn't walk away right then and there. I'm an attractive man and I can say that objectively even in the midst of trying to recover from her infidelity betrayal (and we all know what that does to a BH's confidence).

But I guess BS's are masochists in some sense, and there's plenty of proof for that here on SI, so I stuck around.

In any case, since then, you can be damn sure I've thought about it a lot. And you can be damn sure her sexual history is on the table. And if it's not, then it's "f*ck off, we're done here. Next."

So we've spent a lot of space and time here on this thread debating this, but all I can say is my WW's infidelity shifted my perspective on whether a potential partner's sexual history is any of my business.

It for damn sure is. It's as relevant as anything else.

And I will continue to tell every man younger than me to feel completely comfortable making it an issue if they feel like it. Any woman who doesn't want to answer is free to do so. As I said, the response can be "go have a great life and do something anatomically impossible with yourself."

But let's be done with this nonsense about "slut shaming." I can ask. Any other man can ask. We can decide what our standards and boundaries are. So can any woman. They don't like it? They don't have to. It's a free country. They can answer or not. Or they can throw out a lot of diversion talk about "slut shaming" or "Judgy Judgerton." In that case, see ya.

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:47 PM, December 2nd (Monday)]

Our experiences impact how important these things are to us, Thumos. That makes sense. I will want to know about any history with prostitutes or drug/alcohol addiction and I will reject men who have been with prostitutes (even once) and men who are in recovery from addictions.

And it isn't because these men necessarily suck.

It's because I know for sure that I personally cannot handle being with those men. I, me, not them, would make the relationship impossible. I cannot deal. So I will weed them out for their sake as much as mine. I may miss out on the best guy ever because of this, but my own issues would tank it.

Katya, I believe I'm the one who brought up the football team, I think I may have been the first one.

I am so very, very sorry for what happened to you. My reference was about consenting adults. Which is absolutely not the case, with what happened to you. I cannot tell you enough how much I regret bringing up the football team. I would never, ever, want to trigger a rape victim. I am so deeply, deeply sorry for the pain that I have caused you.

Hellfire - Thank you for your apology. Please know that I don't feel it necessary though. You could never have known if I hadn't spoken up. You didn't do anything wrong.

Did those pieces of shit get charged and put in prison?

Ramius - No they did not and that is a more complicated and in some ways more painful part of my history. I was 13 and I wasn't strong enough to stand publicly against them alone. My father was worse than not helpful. He beat me afterwards.

Nota bene, this was complete and utter horseshit on her part. Having only one sexual partner does not make one "immature" unless you buy into more recent societal stereotypes. I suppose I'm counter-cultural in that regard, for my age group, but I know with confidence I'm not immature about sex. In fact, my loyalty and passionate devotion to one woman is quite mature, I would argue.

I would agree that not cheating is quite a large bit more mature than cheating, and your number of sex partners is irrelevant to that. I'd go further and say that a man who has been married for a quarter of a century has almost certainly had more actual sex than a single man in 25 years, so you're actually way ahead in sexual experience. Plus, she's an idiot.

My father was worse than not helpful. He beat me afterwards.

That upsets me so much. I am so sorry. It's no wonder you had a lot to recover from.

And it isn't because these men necessarily suck.

It's because I know for sure that I personally cannot handle being with those men. I, me, not them, would make the relationship impossible. I cannot deal. So I will weed them out for their sake as much as mine. I may miss out on the best guy ever because of this, but my own issues would tank it.

Actually I’m not a relativist, so I think men who have been with prostitutes TOTALLY suck and Im comfortable making that Judgy McJudgerton Judgment. Call me sanctimonious or whatever. ZFG. Men who have been with prostitutes are gross and slutty and they should be “slut shamed.” Maybe we need our society to do that more.

Actually I’m not a relativist, so I think men who have been with prostitutes TOTALLY suck and Im comfortable making that Judgy McJudgerton Judgment. Call me sanctimonious or whatever. ZFG. Men who have been with prostitutes are gross and slutty and they should be “slut shamed.” Maybe we need our society to do that more.

Ha ha, that's my own personal opinion and why I can't date those guys. I'm not suggesting that I'm right, just that the whole thing is so triggery to me that I can't even.

I'd go further and say that a man who has been married for a quarter of a century has almost certainly had more actual sex than a single man in 25 years, so you're actually way ahead in sexual experience.

Agreed and of course I knew that immediately. This wasn’t a one off comment by her. She stuck with it for awhile. She’s now backing away from it but I’m unsure if too much damage has been done.

The “meaningless sex” part was particularly egregious to me because we’d had a very active sex life and sex was always quite meaningful for me, not meaningless. Unfortunately and ironically, I now grok her description of meaningless sex because I have meaningless sex with her all the time now.

The “meaningless sex” part was particularly egregious to me because we’d had a very active sex life and sex was always quite meaningful for me, not meaningless.

You realize, I hope, that she hammered this point as part of her overall effort to bully you into rug-sweeping the A. If you could only accept that it was "meaningless", as any "mature" person would, then the whole idea of her cheating would be a giant nothing-burger that you could just forget about. Poof! Like that.

Of course, this is belied by the fact that she snuck around and hid this from you, and lied to you about it, until you caught her out. If it really was as "meaningless" as she said, why didn't she just give you a heads up. "Oh, Thumos, by the way, while you're away on business I plan to have AP over to the house for a little meaningless sex. Just letting you know. I'm sure it's okay with you because, you know, it's meaningless."

And it isn't because these men necessarily suck.

It's because I know for sure that I personally cannot handle being with those men. I, me, not them, would make the relationship impossible. I cannot deal. So I will weed them out for their sake as much as mine. I may miss out on the best guy ever because of this, but my own issues would tank it.

Actually I’m not a relativist, so I think men who have been with prostitutes TOTALLY suck and Im comfortable making that Judgy McJudgerton Judgment. Call me sanctimonious or whatever. ZFG. Men who have been with prostitutes are gross and slutty and they should be “slut shamed.” Maybe we need our society to do that more.

I feel very similarly. We all decide what characteristics we like, can tolerate and can't tolerate.

You realize, I hope, that she hammered this point as part of her overall effort to bully you into rug-sweeping the A. If you could only accept that it was "meaningless", as any "mature" person would, then the whole idea of her cheating would be a giant nothing-burger that you could just forget about. Poof! Like that.

Of course, this is belied by the fact that she snuck around and hid this from you, and lied to you about it, until you caught her out. If it really was as "meaningless" as she said, why didn't she just give you a heads up. "Oh, Thumos, by the way, while you're away on business I plan to have AP over to the house for a little meaningless sex. Just letting you know. I'm sure it's okay with you because, you know, it's meaningless."

As usual, you nailed it. I never thought about the bullying me into rugsweeping aspect of it, but I think you’re right. I gotta use that last paragraph. It’s great argumentum ad absurdum that shows how screwed up the “meaningless sex” line was.

Katya, I was raped by 3 boys when I was 15. I told no one. My best friend knew,because she was there. She told her mother, who then told my father. He grounded me for 6 months because I didn't tell him.

So I understand some of what you went through.

You should absolutely, whether they are male or female, make it your business to know your partner’s sexual history. It says a lot about them. Also, for health reasons too. Especially, for those who haven’t had any sexual partners prior to meeting a sexually active person. There are so many STI/STDs around. The responsible thing to do for anyone starting a new sexual relationship with someone is to make sure they have been tested. Spreading disease, especially knowingly, should be criminal.

Now, from an ethical point of view, everyone has their moral code which shape their lives and how they want to live it. It says quite a bit about a person who decides to have sex with multiple people at the same time. They’re risk takers and have high impulsive characteristics. Are you comfortable living with someone who has that as part of their personality?

Agreed and of course I knew that immediately. This wasn’t a one off comment by her. She stuck with it for awhile. She’s now backing away from it but I’m unsure if too much damage has been done.

The “meaningless sex” part was particularly egregious to me because we’d had a very active sex life and sex was always quite meaningful for me, not meaningless. Unfortunately and ironically, I now grok her description of meaningless sex because I have meaningless sex with her all the time now.

OK, here is something I can relate to.

I am divorced. Part of the process in dealing with my ex's A and subsequent divorcing me is all of the insults and violations of intimacy that were part of it.

In my case sex was never mentioned. It was pure emotion on her part. So I did and do not have that issue. But intimacy...

The reality with many divorced people is that the sex, the fun stuff, is going to come WAY before any sort of emotional intimacy for many, many people. So when someone would say "none of your business" to some of these questions, IF it is due to prior intimacy violations by a prior partner or partners... that's where it comes from. The prospective new partner may reach other aspects of the person, but certain things may be off limits, now, maybe forever.

So with this, even if your marriage lasts, are you ever going to be as trusting again? If it doesn't, are you going to go to the same place with a new partner or partners? For me, I can't see going there again.

I gotta use that last paragraph. It’s great argumentum ad absurdum that shows how screwed up the “meaningless sex” line was.

You could even take it to the next level. Since a person with a "mature" view of sex, like your wife, finds extramarital sex to be an acceptable foible as long as it is "meaningless", then of course she wouldn't mind if you had sex with a paid escort or two so that you can experience sex with different people. After all, that would be the epitome of "meaningless" sex. Just ask your wife to take a GNO so you can enjoy sex in the comfort of your family home.

DevastatedDee:

“If I get into a relationship again and the man rejects me because I don’t fit whatever image he has of a woman he would want to be with, so be it. After reading this thread, I’ll be sure to be 100% honest to weed those men out. I don’t want a man who thinks that I am immoral or impure because I haven’t saved myself for him all this time or because I actually, god forbid, enjoy sex despite not having a penis. And you know what? No hard feelings.”

And

KatyaCA:

“If a potential partner thinks I am damaged, not good enough, or that I handled my past in a way they look down on, I want to know. I want to know so I can walk away from them cleanly and early.”

Very well expressed by both, and I have to agree with the sentiment. I got the same overriding theme out of this thread. I blubbered through two paragraphs yesterday trying to explain it but not nearly as lucid or as pointedly accurate as you have.

So when someone would say "none of your business" to some of these questions, IF it is due to prior intimacy violations by a prior partner or partners... that's where it comes from. The prospective new partner may reach other aspects of the person, but certain things may be off limits, now, maybe forever.

That is an excellent point which tilts me back in the other direction. Although in my case I would simply say to any questions, “well I was a virgin before my wife and I was always faithful to her. I had an active sex life exclusively with her for decades. She betrayed me in a deeply hurtful way. I have trust issues but as long as you know that we should do pretty well.”

[This message edited by Thumos at 7:57 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]

So with this, even if your marriage lasts, are you ever going to be as trusting again? If it doesn't, are you going to go to the same place with a new partner or partners?

As to the first question, no. I just can’t wrap my mind around being as trusting again with her. For the last three years I’ve held myself back. I would like to open up more. If I stay with her maybe it will happen. Jury’s still out on that.

As the second question. Yes, I think so. Maybe not the same place because there will never be the ability to replicate all the “firsts” I’ve had with a partner I’ve been with since I was 20. But in terms of vulnerability, passion, trust ... yes, I think I could do that with the right woman. In some sense, I’m still a romantic.

I don't get the term "meaningless sex", personally. Its one of the most intimate things you can do with a person. True meaningless sex is masturbation. Of course, some people find God at the bottom of a good piece of cake, so different strokes I guess.