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Hi Walloped, I lean towards R if its possible and if the M was worth saving, from reading your story and what you have said I think yours probably is......the question will be if you can get passed what has happened, trying to R is so hard, the phases you will go through will test you, you will feel like walking away many times, those mind movies and thoughts you are having will go on for a very long time and you have to just go with it all, there is no way of escaping the emotions and it really is some roller coaster. Your story has been on my mind a lot since I read your post about your difficult talks that you had at the weekend. This is my opinion for what it is worth. I think your WW is doing a lot more to help you than many do but I don't think you are getting the full truth yet, there are very few that are fully truthful at first, even if you beg them for the truth, tell them that you will not tolerate any lies and even say that lies would be a deal breaker, they still think that down playing the truth is best, best for them to protect them and best for you, to save you from even more pain, all they do is delay the pain and make things worse but sadly this is what happens. Imo I think like someone else mentioned she is downplaying the level of emotion she had for him, she believes you will accept what they did sexually because women usually can get past the sexual stuff easier, its the emotional tie that causes so much pain, its imagining that connection that they had that's a killer for ladies, this has also been my experience but for men its the thought of "Their" wives having such an intimate sexual experience with another, a violation that often is impossible to get past. Lots on here have talked about how OM was a predator and hunted your wife down, I am sorry I don't see this.......no matter how he pursued your wife, this is about your wife's poor boundaries, what she said to allow herself to enter into this relationship? Why was what you both had not enough? Imo your W is still in the fog as they call it, she has been caught and she doesn't want to lose what she has with you and your children but she has allowed herself to fall in love with someone else, I am sorry to say I think she has fallen hard and I would be really surprised even if he has been proven to be a massive POS that she has fallen out of love with him at this stage, she has a lot to lose and she would be taking a chance on giving it all up for a fantasy relationship but I think its too early for you to believe all she says, I just want to say edge on the side of caution, like you said its actions not words, please watch and see.

Re your question about peoples opinions re separation when leaning towards R, for what its worth IMO I believe if you want to try to R you stay put, yes your head will be a mess, you can't think straight, you feel like you want to get away but I really think you need to stay with her and work through all of this together, you can feel and see how both are doing and support each other, your children will see that you are trying to work this out but at the end of the day I think you stay as couple and work it through together. Just my opinion, others will disagree but this is how my H and I did it and I have to say its going well and we are stronger from it. Here's one that is bound to stir opinions. I believe to help if you decide to push forward with R you restart intimacy as soon as you can, I found you really need that connection to help you get through, for me Hysterical Bonding was key to keeping us close and connected, don't get me wrong it was so hard and the mind movies were hell but through all the pain it was reassuring and needed, for me I took the sex back the day after dday, I never moved out of our bed and I didn't take off my wedding rings, again some will disagree but I wanted R from the start and I fought really hard with emotions to get where I am today, I faced everything straight on and I really went through it, never round anything and its working for me.

I really hope for you your wife is and does all she needs to, to repair the mess she has caused, she has a lot of work to do, as you both do, as you will come to realize that although we as B's did nothing to cause this trauma , we have to do so much of the work to get to the other side, its hard but you have to let go eventually of the resentment, anger etc to get past this, you have to accept what has happened and move on, all in time I add and you are a long way off, I just want to let you know what you will have to do, when it ultimately feels unfair when we are innocent bystanders but if you want a life in the future with your W its the only way, remember you have the power now, you make the decisions and they are your choices, if you choose R then eventually you will have to be all in, you may want R, the question is will you be able to? Whatever you decide we are all here for you, helping, advising, probing, suggesting, sometimes you will like what you hear, other times it will cause you to question your choices, SI is a wonderful place, its great you found it so early in your journey but remember this is your life, all these people advise from their experience and all our experiences are individual as we all are, we all have our own levels of what we can take and tolerate, no one is right, we just do what we need to, you will know if you cannot take anymore, trust your gut, as they say on here it is always right, enjoy your break away, look after yourself but think hard whether it would be best to stay at home or separate. Can I also advise if you have any questions about R, post them on the R forum there are some wonderfully brave strong people on there who have managed to R and have some really good advice.

Still1991,

Great first post. Welcome.

Walloped,

Have a great trip. Maybe hit Vegas for a night or two.

Two things:

1. Walloped, it struck me as I was reading through replies this morning to caution you against "empty threats" with your WW. For instance - you told her breaking NC was a deal breaker , clearly it wasn't, and I understand that in those highly barged moments we all say things we don't mean or think through, etc. Going forward, particularly if you plan to head to R, be very careful about choosing and presenting consequences to your WW. Kind of like parenting teenagers. Say what you mean. Do what you say. Just something to think about.

2. As I read through replies, it sometimes feels like posters are having discussions amongst themselves - and it seems that sometimes the content of these discussions are things that, in real time, would only be brought up and said out loud if they were being discussed out of Walloped's earshot. I believe everyone here has good intentions and wants to help - but speculation and water cooler-esque conversations are *still going to be read by Walloped*. Just sayin'.

Have a great trip Walloped. I'm glad you've made arrangements to be in contact with the kids while you are gone.

So I thought about where W is this morning. I tried to approach it from a antiseptic business sense

- W has many emotions and thoughts, but one thing that is clear that ANY subsequent break in NC is a complete 100% deal breaker

- His wife has said that she will not sign anything that has anything to do with custody

- W is in the driver's seat

- W doesn't want to play mommydaddy let's monitor my wife for the next 48 months

I'm a guy who doesn't have the patience to deal with bullshit. I'd just give her a post-nuptual that rewards W with the ability to fully-control custody arrangements should she break No Contact again. Obviously No Contact has to be clearly outlined.

His discussion was important in that she signalled what was negotiable and what was not. At this point nobody knows what the destination will hold, but if W wants to assure himself 100% of never having to play traffic cop, then the kids are his *only* leverage while he figures out R or D.

I do feel it would be important to no state that he would be 100% - he's already shown a willingness to move out because he feels that his wife offers more stability. But it was his decision, not the court's. It should remain his decision if she makes the decision to re-start her love affair.

W is too good of a guy to be dealing with this bullshit

Yes, she's lying about NC. I don't doubt that.

Of course she is. Of course she contacted him at least one more time. The heart and feelings aren't controlled by wall switches, and she was in deep with him. Of course there was some kind of closure. There had to be. Her heart demanded it.

I predict if she ever truly discusses it, that the closure will not have been satisfying. It was cloaked with guilt and self-loathing, No matter how Romance Novel-ish she wanted the moment to be, the magic was gone, the bubble was forever burst. Real world intruded.

Yes, she was in love with him. Full stop. All she's been doing is minimizing it for her and my benefit (or at least that's how I think she rationalizes it).

No, I don't blame her for it. The minimizing. Don't know I'd do differently in her shoes. I'd like to think so, but who knows?

You're a smart man, Walloped. I think you have core truth of it in hand, based on my own experience of course. My wife went from full-on affair to full-off by appearances, but I knew that feelings have inertia. My approach was to give her space to decide which way to go going forward, and base my actions on that.

I do worry about your kids. Your WW cheated on them almost as much as you. The kids see you guys as MomAndDad, an entity, and she put space between the letters. But you are now the one that is physically leaving them, and with kids love is spelled t-i-m-e.

I was in the military, and so had a series of paid separations (called deployments) right after D-Day. I didn't want them, and they were excruciating, wondering what she was doing while I was gone. But they also gave her the space for her to show with her actions what her real intentions were. She chose me.

walloped ,

reading through your post and everyone opinions the reply of your wife to the polygraph I think you should cut your lost and preventing your kid to get hurt more then he/she should , we all can make life better again , life too short, we all don't deserve this crap best of luck

Walloped -

i think the fact that you think your wife wasn't honest about the phone call breaking NC is big. Trust your instincts. Sure, it seems picayune. She probably found a way to let him know how to get a hold of her. After everything else, big deal. Right? But I think it is big. Because it deals with truthfulness. Because if you know she's lying to you, then you can't trust her. You need to tell her how big the truth is.

I couldn't reconcile with someone that I knew was lying to me. And I don't recommend you do either. But you don't have to make that decision now. You can see what happens.

Why would she do that, after confessing everything else? I think you've already got that figured out. You said she was full stop in love with him. I think that's the key. This doesn't mean that she was planning on leaving you for him. I think she's being honest about that. I don't think she would ever have planned to leave you or her family. (she may have eventually if the affair continued) But she loved him. Then, when she found out he was married and had been lying to her, she felt betrayal. The betrayal was more acute because of what she may lose because of it. I think it's only natural. Remember how upset she was about his betrayal? Your SIL even commented, "wow, just think how Walloped feels about YOUR betrayal after 27 years." And to that, your wife didn't even respond. She loved him and trusted him. And then to find out she was losing her whole world and on top of it, to find out he had lied to her? I think the desire to confront him was too great. She had to hear for herself from his lips that yes, he was married. Or that he still loved her, or something. Or maybe she had to curse him out like she told you she did. In short, she was focusing on being betrayed. She wanted to address THAT first. Not remorseful.

And I think her lost love for him is still tainting her thinking. I think she replaced you with him. He was her confidante. Her lover. That's how he could respond to her request to leave her alone with a calm, "we'll talk more." He really thought he could convince her to leave you for him. He was confident about that. Still fantasy. But that's what I think. You confronting her and seeing you in such pain pretty much destroyed the fantasy. She couldn't reconcile who she thought she was, with the pain she caused you. As I said before, I don't really think you can change core values. Faced with the reality that she was an adultress, not a princess, and someone who was destroying her husband and her own family, she couldn't accept that. So it destroyed her fantasy. But what about those feelings? That's why she wants to make love to you. Because she knows she should. And by God, she's going to have sex with her husband now. She's going to try to do the right thing NOW! And because she wants to try to make amends, to try to heal you. And... almost like she was spurned. Like... Hah! OM lied to me and doesn't love me. I'll show him. I'm going back to my husband. A MUCH better man. I should have never left him. But in her heart, she did leave you. So she feels betrayed. I don't know. Those are my thoughts on the whys. Just speculation. But I think your thinking is on track. You're a smart guy. Trust your gut.

But here's the thing. So what? If you think you're going to divorce her, who cares that she's still lying about something? something she's keeping to herself in hopes of self-preservation. In my opinion, if you're going to divorce, just move on. Don't cause anymore pain. Don't do anything that you will regret. She's still the mother of your children and she gave you many, many good years. If you pull the plug, be honorable, be gentle. Eventually she'll be in tremendous pain anyway, for losing you, destroying her family.

If however, you still think you might want to keep her. I think you have to get the truth. I would. I simply wouldn't reconcile with someone that wasn't/wouldn't give me the truth.

have a nice break from her. I'm betting you'll come back in a much more centered space.

Edited to Add: I think HouseofPlane gave a very wise post above. I think he nailed it.

[This message edited by mike7 at 9:42 AM, August 26th (Wednesday)]

I agree:

I want to point out how HUGE it was when you contacted other man's wife and found out other man was lying about being married. HUGE. If not for that, your wife may not think of other man as a POS, and if your wife did not think of other man as a POS, your wife probably goes underground to keep prolonging. Without you telling your wife about other man's lie, you are in a completely different situation, a much worse circumstance. I can't emphasize enough to you how HUGE that was in how this played out.

This why EXPOSURE is so important when R is likely the goal.

I believe the only question she might have out right lied was the contact with OM at SIL's house. This could easily be verified if the SIL and/or BIL would let you look at the ingoing and outgoing calls to their land line.

I am one that believes separation is not the best if R is the goal but I understand that some people need to do this.

I hope it will be a short separation 30 days or less.

I would like to add that,­

Despite I agree with all your comments a­bout her, I believe she is not a cheatin­g mastermind operating at 100% of her ab­ility. She is a WW that, at least for 3 ­weeks now, has witnessed the end of her ­entire world for her fault, at the same ­time mourning the loss of her last love ­(OM), deception for what he truly is (PO­S) and the shame and guilt for the pain ­she has caused to her family, W and Kids­. Also mourning the loss of friends (pos­sible affair enablers) and W (at least h­is friendship). In a nut shell, she is a­ mess!!! She is in pain, not as much as ­W but in pain. She is a mess right now.

I am nor defending her, I believe no one­ can do that, I am just stressing that s­he is not in a good place and she may be­ able to do mistakes, omissions, minimiz­ations and TT, and it doesn’t mean she i­s not willing to do anything to R.

Of course I can be very mistaken and she­ is still in contact with OM, even physi­cally after DDay. But that is going to b­e revealed trough the poly. Meanwhile, a­nd unless is proven other way and as far­ as we know, IMO she is doing the right ­things to get W into R.

She needs time, as W does, to figure out­ what she want to do and what she is wil­ling to sacrifice to get it.

Last thing, she broke NC knowing what it­ may cost her, no matter what they reall­y talk about, she did it and W has done ­nothing. Now she knows that W is willing­ to bear more than she thought at DDay. ­From other angle, she came clean about i­t, partially I believe, maybe forced by ­her Sister, or any other reason.

W, You should really get your SIL phone­ records and look for her at the phone b­ook and ask when was her last contact, o­r last time they have any sexual interac­tion, at the poly test.

Eric - I like the idea, but I don't think you can have a post or prenup that deals with custody or other child related issues (support etc). I have a lawyer working on an agreement for me and he clarified this. Anything else financial, yes. Spousal support, distribution of assets, percentage of future incomes etc, yes. But he was very clear that nothing to do with time or money for kids would hold up in court. Different state, but W if you are into this idea, best to run it by your lawyer (to check for precedents) before offering to your wife.

W, I hope you can find some peace and enjoyment on your trip. You certainly deserve it.

I want to point out how HUGE it was when you contacted other man's wife and found out other man was lying about being married. HUGE.

Your wife found out:

1. He was married and in counseling which means in a troubled marriage

2. That she wasn’t his first affair (I would think that this would distress her more than him being in a troubled marriage and is why I wanted you to show her the "player's letter.")

The above was somewhat mitigated by the fact that POS still wanted her and wanted her to leave you for him. This implies that POS was willing to leave his troubled marriage.

Bottom line: To your wife he wasn’t an instant overt POS. It was more complex. No wonder she wanted to talk to him.

[This message edited by Graywolf at 9:28 AM, August 26th (Wednesday)]

Wal, I recommend you take a few days off from SI or, as much as possible, thinking about infidelity. Try to recharge your batteries. I don't want you to feel overwhelmed by us. We'll be here for you, always, so feel free to take a breather when you need it.

Best wishes

Wow, Walloped. 39 pages and counting. I've stayed away from SI for several days (my own sanity; needed a break)

So. You're putting your toe in the water on separation. You've gotten more advice with your story in such a short time than any I can remember recently. Your situation is so much like mine it is startling. Only, my children are older. And, I knew OM.

-Sigh-

Your last long post:

1) I'm going to figure out how I want to handle this separation thing -...

Anyway, don't know if any of that made sense or if my thinking is totally fucked up at this point, but there you have it.

Yeah, it made sense. In some ways it is like reading my own thoughts at your stage (i.e., several weeks).

Just know that healing can indeed come.

My advice at this stage (and you've gotten so much) is to take it in little chunks. Be in the moment. My impression is that your WW is remorseful.

Good luck. Be slow, now. Deliberate. Take care of you.

W - just some thoughts I've had regarding your situation.

I've posted before on your thread - I guess encouraging R because your wife seems to be an ideal candidate - her transparency, her ownership of the betrayal, her remorse.

I chose to R - and I'm very happy with that choice - so I think to myself "well I know it can be done" and I then I question - why is this a difficult choice for Walloped? He loved his wife to pieces, she's doing everything right - why not try R? I think of other situations where the bs chose not to R - in spite of having a remorseful spouse willing to do the heavy lifting. What is different between my situation and theirs? I think I know what it is...

My marriage pre-A was horrible. I had checked out 3 or 4 years before the A. Figured the kids would go away to school in a few years and we would amicably split and go on to greener pastures. But post-A, my fwh did such a 180 - became the husband I could only dream of. Now - my marriage is so good - I struggle to believe it's not a dream.

But that's not your situation. Your marriage was glorious before the betrayal. It was everything you could hope for...where I could see the immense contrast between preA and postA marriage as a positive, it must be the opposite for you. Where it was not hard to see improvement in my previously dismal marriage, it must be very difficult for you to envision what could improve on the perfection you've described your pre-A marriage to be.

With that in mind, I now understand your dilemma. I get why you need space and time away. I hope you find the peace of mind and clarity you're looking for W. I'm confident you'll find the path that's healthy for you.

Well that was fast.

Okay…first, took Ambien last night. Slept for nearly 8 hours. Wow. I forgot what that felt like. Made me a bit groggy this morning, but I slept!

Mind movies – they’re there. Boy are they there. I had called my therapist about them (couldn’t wait until Thursday). He told me to put a rubber band on my wrist and snap it hard every time they started up. So, I know have a red, sore wrist, and mind movies!

I think planning drives me. Distracts me. This is what has been keeping me sane. You’ve commented about how fast I’m doing things. Frankly, if I didn’t, I think I’d fall apart.

So…we had a conversation this morning. I was packing and bringing up suitcases to take to my brother’s and she asked if we could talk. Boys were in the basement playing Risk, girls were with friends, so fine. She didn’t say anything for what seemed like 10 minutes. Fidgeted a lot. After a long while I loudly sighed and started to get up to go back to packing. That panicked her and she blurted out that she called him. She started apologizing. Lots of I’m sorry’s. Lots of crying. I just sat there for a while. Let her go on. Hen I told her that I already knew. She jerked her head up at me at that. I told her I’m not an idiot. Of course she called him. Why didn’t I say anything? I wanted to see what you’d do.

So I asked her what happened. Basically, she really wanted to call him to yell at him to find out about his marriage, the other affairs, to tell him off – she doesn’t know – she was a mess. Her sister had stopped her on Wednesday. When her sister was out on Thursday she was going back and forth on it and she picked up the phone to call. He answered. She said she asked him if it was true – if he was married and had other affairs? He didn’t answer. Apparently he immediately started yelling at her about me. That I called his wife and sent a C&D to him. His wife opened it as well (yes! Probably a big no-no for her, but hey). How many problems for him I’ve caused. What kind of SOB I was. My wife said she was floored. She started calling him names. Basically asked if she was simply just another notch on his belt. He didn’t answer that, but didn’t say no either. She then told him everything she told me she had said before (go to hell, don’t ever call me, etc.).

I asked her why she didn’t tell me this before. She told me so many other things, why not this? Because I had said breaking NC was a deal-breaker and she doesn’t want me to divorce her and she was scared that I’d do that if she told me. Okay, so why now? A few reasons. It’ll come out in the poly anyway. And I’m leaving her. I’m calling it just a few weeks to get my head on but she knows this is me leaving her for good and if I’m going to divorce her anyway at least I deserve honesty for everything she did to me. She’s been reading more books and she understands that nothing she can ever do will erase what she did but at least she can do this for me.

I thanked her for telling me. I asked her if there’s anything else she wanted to changes from what she told me over the weekend. Anything about her relationship with POS? She thought about it and said not really. She thinks she was pretty accurate. She did say she’s not sure about how deep her feelings were for him and whether she understands it herself. She does think she told me what she feels or felt as best as she could.

I also told her that the post-nup will discuss NC. I told her that the constant lying and not telling me the whole truth is tremendously painful and each time it’s like discovering her affair for the first time all over again. I’m not sure, but I think she may have gotten it. Who knows? I reiterated that in order for us to have any hope, total honesty must happen. No matter how painful. No matter how much she thinks it’ll hurt me or hurt her. And then I said my leaving was just that. To get my head screwed on straight. That things are too painful for me now, but that I will be back. I promise.

And then I did something. I went and got our 20th anniversary cards. I asked her to read them. She bawled the entire time. I asked her what happened to the person who I wrote about and who wrote that about me? Where did she go? Because the person in front of me is not her now. I hope she’s there somewhere. Maybe buried deep inside. But she’s not here now. I suggested that maybe during IC she can figure out what happened and if it’s possible to become that person again.

So, many of you think I've put my wife on a pedestal or am only seeing the good in her. Because how can she truly be good if she did this? You read what she did and wonder how in the world could I even consider R? So I'm going to do something really dumb. I'm going to share what we each wrote to each other for our 20th anniversary that we discussed this morning. These are direct copies from those cards. First, from me to her:

Dear [Mrs. W],

From her to me:

Dear Walloped,

[Mrs. Walloped]

That’s the person I fell in love with and how we were for the past 27 years. That’s why I think something broke in her that she needs to find out and fix. That’s why I have a goal of reconciliation. Doesn’t mean I can, doesn’t mean we will, but its for that person that I believe I should try.

When you move out ,it might be a good idea to have no contact unless its about the kids .Maybe even only have contact by text .

IMO she was/is really deep in love with OM and got her clousure. Even if that could mean getting D...

IMO she really need to come clean about her true feeling for this guy during the affair and if she ever consider leaving her family for him. I believe there is much more she hasnt told you.

I just hope she tries as hard as you.

I'm sure you are sad to see her so lost.

What a shame she did not turn to you.

Mind movies – they’re there. Boy are they there.

Nerd alert. Surely you've read the Dune novels. The mantra against fear? Letting it pass through me?

If you just let the movies play, don't react to them, let them flow through you, they kind of lose their power. Just thoughts passing by, tempting you to stare at them. When they pop up, try putting your awareness on your awareness of them, rather than on the movies themselves. See yourself watching the movie. Contemplate on its affect on you.

As for "when the movies play", fact is you play the movies. You, yourself. Somewhere in your noggin you choose to pull them off the shelf and run the film through the projector, hit the switch, pull out the popcorn and watch. You choose to make a new movie, thinking through what could have happened and then imagining it. your blood pressure and pulse respond as surely as if you were seeing it in person.

You are doing all of this to yourself. WHY are you doing this to yourself? What purpose is it serving you?

So what is this 'you' that is tee-ing these things up, when 'you' are seeking advice on how to avoid them? Here's my answer, YMMV. It's based on years of reading and thinking. It is your Self fighting to defend itself. Her A was an attack on your Self as it perceives itself in the universe, and now your Self is fighting to defend itself. The rational you is getting dragged along for the ride.

I mean, really, her A in no way puts you at physical risk (positive STD tests excluded) but it is a direct attack on Who and What You Are, and there are few limits if any your Self will not go through to fight for that. It is Who You Are, after all.

Pondering on it can help take away the power of the mind movies, once you put your focus more on the mechanism and less on the movie itself. An affair blows the lid off of a lot of stuff that runs in the under-current of our lives, and lays our humanity out there for exposure.

But it still hurts, hurts, hurts. Knowing the mechanism doesn't override a few million years of evolution and wired in response.

I asked her why she didn’t tell me this before. She told me so many other things, why not this? Because I had said breaking NC was a deal-breaker and she doesn’t want me to divorce her and she was scared that I’d do that if she told me. Okay, so why now? A few reasons. It’ll come out in the poly anyway. And I’m leaving her.

As I told you before, now she knows you don't really mean it when you draw lines in the sand. This might be very dangerous, don't get dragged into another exception, don't say anything you don't mean, and make very clear to her your reasons for making an exception this time (if there are any).

Also... listen to what Mrhealed said, and be cautious before you trust and believe everything she said. It's really early and she seems to get most of it, but she's taking steps and challenging your boundaries at every turn, always apologizing, but she does, and that is one big red flag.

So stay cautious and watch her action, you'll listen to her words later on....