SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I've read the majority of these posts, and I feel like I have a very different take on all of this. I want to share it with you because, if it helps, that's what I want to do. But, if it doesn't ring at all true for you, of course, please disregard and know that I don't say any of this with any malice.

I don't see what your wife did on that weekend as cheating. She informed you she was unhappy, that she had a date, that she needed to evaluate the state of your relationship. That is a lot more than many of us got from our unfaithful partners. She was transparent and tried to start a conversation with you.

She proceeded to do what she told you she was going to do. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see you explain why you didn't ask her about the date immediately after you returned (particularly if you sensed she was distant). But, putting that aside, you proposed to her and she made a judgment not to tell you directly about sleeping with this other man. This tells me that you both seem to have a severe communication problem that goes back to the period before your marriage. From her not telling you about this guy, to you not telling her you were a virgin and being cagey about your sexual past with her... from the outside it seems odd that the two of you seem to have been content with a relationship built on obfuscation.

And even now she seems afraid of MC and, by your own admission, you aren't relating to her in the ways you want to. I think MC and/or IC is essential for both of you to live more healthy and fulfilling lives in general.

I can tell you that when I first started dating my ex-husband, before we had a conversation about being exclusive, I slept with other men. And, no, I never told him about it. I know he had an ex-girlfriend still vaguely in the picture, and I didn't ask him about her. That may have been a misstep on my part-- to not stick my neck out and make either one of us accountable. Not because I would see either of us continuing to date freely before we had a firm commitment and expectation for the relationship set as "infidelity"... but because it showed a willingness to keep things hidden. To live separate lives. As others have said, I think that's a bad way to start a life together.

Of course your feelings of betrayal are perfectly valid, but I would push you that what you are experiencing here with her having slept with this man is the tip of the iceberg. I think there may be a lot more below the surface, which is why you are responding particularly strongly. I encourage you to go to IC on your own to explore this. And to come up with strategies to stop the mind movies you describe, to help you process your anger and to help you relate to your wife in more productive ways. You've taken a big step here by exploring your emotions and thoughts publicly. Opening up like that is a great instinct. I hope you continue to push yourself in that direction in order to help yourself heal.

Best of luck to you.

But as a naive person I don’t understand how she could do things of a sexual nature with a guy she spent a weekend with that she wouldn’t do with her own husband

Have you asked her to do these things with you during your 10 year M? If not it might be that she doesn't particulary like those things but did them when asked.

Anyways, I'm of the oppinion that if a WS does things with the OM those things should from there on be done with the BS as well. For me that would be a deal breaker.

I think she did what she did with the other man because she knew he didn't matter. It was just a dirty weekend for both of them. It doesn't sound like she cared what he thought of her either and believe me, it wouldn't have been much. There was no emotion there and never would have been. On the other hand she does have an emotional relationship with you despite her previous lousy judgments. She has had your babies and it is you with whom she has the true and sacred history.

The sex she had with the OM sounds pretty mechanical in nature if I am reading between the lines. There is no way she would have felt great about it afterwards either especially once he had left and she had sobered up from her high. She probably doesn't even know why she behaved the way she did back then or why all that seemed so important at the time which is why she is brushing it off now. I know that doesn't do anything to help you when you are feeling deeply hurt.

As others have suggested I would strongly recommend you seek individual counseling for now even if your wife is reluctant to go herself.

(((((hugs)))))

EJ

Your story is a very complicated one, after you discover the your wife's diaries. Having the knowledge of your wife's sexual behavior and history... Bring into question has wife faithful to me throughout are marriage, also knowing that she might have not really loved you at the time you too got married.

When I mentioned counseling, she said that if she went, the marriage would problem be over. Why did she say that?

Did you ever find out why she said that...?

To put your mind at rest about your wife's reluctance to have Adonis sex with you, thats quite normal. With the OM she was probably submissive and open to experimentation; she didn't really care if it was pleasant or not since there was no future in this relationship and she could let him take charge and follow directions, so as to speak. She didn't care if Adonis thought she was a slut, in fact it was quite exciting; she could behave dirtily; act like a porn star; make outrageous, sluttish statements and generally be the wanton tramp the OM desired. She knew she wouldn't see this guy again; what did his opinion of her matter?

With you she needs to be seen as a respectable wife and mother; she needs dignity and respect. The image she wants is not a depraved whore, but a decent upstanding housewife who wants a loving, proper and dignified sex life. The stress is on emotional love, not perverted gymnastics and deviant excesses.

Sexual perversions = the 'sick' woman she use to be, who would screw around, allow herself to be abused and indulge in shameful acts of unnatural sexuality.

Loving relationship = what she has currently has and she will not allow acts of 'shameful depravity' to intrude and besmirch the purity of her union with you. Maybe she is afraid of the Madonna whore complex; to quote the dictionary:

A man with a madonna-whore complex is a man who will sleep with and have perverted lust for a sexual and beautiful woman, but he will never respect her as "wife" material

Being honest, there are certain sexual acts I am curious about, but I would never want to do these with my husband. I want to preserve my respectable, loving image with him; I cannot allow him to think of me as a slut even if it would excite him. No way.

Being a married woman with children confers respectability and I think your wife wants to distance herself from the shameful hussy of her youth. Indulging in 'unusual sex' undermines her preferred image of proper decency and the strongly favored emphasis on emotional love.

I agree with OK now. As wives we would want to different kind of fantasy moves but we want our love making to be kind, gentle, and loving. Not like we are just a piece of ass to our husband. I'm not experience (for I've only been with my husband). When I imagine him with the other women he had, I see him doing things that I would never do with him because to me I see them as dirty whores and I know that's the way he viewed them as well.

In response to Phantom Limb I never asked about her date because I thought it never happened. I called her Saturday morning to ask her to marry me. Her date with the guy was for Saturday evening. I didn’t know that the two of them had hooked up Friday evening and that he slept over to Saturday morning when I called her. I just learned all the details recently, 10 years after the fact. The other thing I’m realizing is that if it had been just a dinner and a movie, that kind of a date it would not really have mattered that much to me. I would have been mad but I would have dismissed it and not given it another thought. It’s the fact she had sex with him; the pictures were in her diary. Maybe I could even have resolved this incident as well. But the two of them were exchanging body fluids at the time I was talking to her on the phone. In her diary I read that he heard my asking her to marry me and he was laughing as he discharged his fluids into her. How do you get rid of that picture from your mind? Then a few hours later that day I return home from my trip and we celebrate our engagement by being very romantic. He said in the diary that he left my girlfriend well lubricated for me. I’m excited about marrying my girlfriend and the two of us are being intimate and his sperm is mixing with mine. As I’m writing this I’m shaking and the tears are there. Please how do you deal with this picture? I understand counseling can help, but this picture is with me forever. I don’t care if it happened 10 years ago, it happened.

And to Tomtefar it never dawned on me to ask her to do the things she did with her Adonis guy, what some of you called kinky sex stuff. During the marriage and even when living together, we did what we did sexually that pleased us both that we were comfortable with. I apologize to everyone if my language is embarrassing, and if I have broken any of this sites protocols, I’m sorry. But this is my marriage and I’m trying to salvage it.

I promise that your mind movies will get better with time and counseling or finding some healthy way of letting your feelings out..

The fact that your D-day is recent for you is probably one of the reasons that you are so raw..

If you get through these feelings you will be fine whether or not the marriage survives..

Whether or not this is infidelity doesn't matter you have some bad feelings (about your wife) to process..

No escaping the feelings via alcohol or other addictions, or rug sweeping these feelings for the sake of the relationship

Like others have posted, it would be good to tell your wife of your hurt and your mind movies and do it in a gentle way..

Then see if she is willing to learn better communication skills with you and to respect your feelings better..

I'm not suggesting that you guys go to MC, just learn to communicate with each other better..

I do think each of you really need IC..

[This message edited by doggiediva at 12:22 PM, March 7th (Friday)]

Hi Stu. Please stop apologizing for speaking frankly. We are all adults here and your are dealing with graphic subject matter. Trust me, I have posted way worse myself than what you are posting here. It is good of you to have some class though too.

I can feel the pain in your words. Quite honestly I get a little emotional from reading your posts. It's ok to feel how you do. It's very natural to do so. The fact that this happened 10 years ago is irrelevant as you obviously are just finding out. I agree with doggiediva in that doesn't matter if it was cheating or not cheating or whatever we want to call it. Let's call it terrible, hurtful, horrific pain or whatever.

Reading back through your thread it looks like you have had some discussions with your wife. Your wife clearly had/has some issues. Now you are experiencing your own issues as a result of hers. All of these issues need to be addressed. It's easy for me to sit here and say go to IC, clearly you guys need it. But have the two of you really communicated with each other. As in REALLY listened to each other. I know you have listened to her express her past issues. Has she really listened to you on your current issues? Does she show any remorse? Those graphic images aren't going to go away in the short term, but if she can show you true remorse, that will be a good first step in healing. I know at first it didn't sound like she was remorseful. What has she said since? Have you asked her to help you with your pain? Have you asked her for what your needs are?

ETA - edited grammar above

[This message edited by yearsofpain25 at 12:50 PM, March 7th (Friday)]

Your last post was heartrending and painful to read. What does your wife say when you tell her the same words concerning her treachery? When you describe what was happening at the time of the marriage proposal and how she 'romantically' ensured that your semen would mix with his?

Does she shrug her shoulder and brush it off? Show intense remorse? Apologize in a 'get over it' tone? Say nothing? Or act defensively? Her response is key to your healing. We can offer advice and support but her reactions are much more critical.

Her failure to tell you about her Adonis sexual experience when you proposed in indefensible, but do you have any idea whether she actually enjoyed this sex or not? Maybe she was the passive partner and never really had an [O] for example. If she just lay there it might be easier to accept her attitude. From her perspective if she wasn't emotionally involved with this guy then she wasn't making love to him and it didn't matter so much. A woman's interpretation of lovemaking is generally different than a mans and betrayal is often an emotional issue not physical. So if she considered she had not really betrayed you, then it was OK to accept the marriage proposal and say nothing about the torrid sex.

To those of you who have told me that my wife’s Adonis boyfriend she had sex with would amount to nothing, and that he was scum, I found info about him using a service I have access to on the internet. Using the information from my wife’s diary, name and other details he had written in her diary, I found this info about him. He earned his undergraduate degree from Yale University and attended the Brown/Dartmouth Program in Medicine, receiving his MD from the Brown University School of Medicine. He lives a few miles from me and practices medicine in the next town. He married his wife about a month from the date I proposed to my wife; that’s the weekend of their sexual contact. He also has children. Will I try to find him, NO; it won’t change a thing. He didn’t do anything wrong. He saw a pretty woman and asked her for her phone number and got what he wanted from her. My girlfriend/wife could have refused, she didn’t and the rest is history. The ALPH MALE wins again.

In hind sight do I wish I had been a player, someone who had different women as often as I would have liked, YES. I had opportunities; I could have screwed arowned then settled down and had tails to tell my guy friends about. What do I tell my male friends now, for good times call my wife? What do I have now, a wife who did every guy who wanted her. Her history reads like a teenage boys dream. I’m working two jobs to support my family and a wife who was a party animal. How could counseling work. I’m at the lowest point in my life. I just don’t know what to do!

stu,

I have been a member here for more years than I care to admit and ALL the stories of betrayal are terrible. Unfortunately some stand out from the others by the brutality of the betrayal.

Unfortunately yours is one I won't forget. What she is did was beyond cold and brutal. And honestly I don't have any words of advice that would help you getting over what you read and saw.

And I too wonder at why she says this:

When I mentioned counseling, she said that if she went, the marriage would problem be over.

Suggests me there is probably more going on than you are aware of.

Sorry you are here.

I am not saying you should do this, but generally speaking the advice in most infidelity situations is to expose.

He probably had a fiancee who later became his wife at the time.

He married his wife about a month from the date I proposed to my wife; that’s the weekend of their sexual contact.

I doubt that they had a month long engagement. If he was so keen on disrespecting you, maybe you return the favor and tell his wife. Not saying you should, but that option is available to you. Remember what I said about being a good man and being able to say that with a clear conscience.

With him being so close, are you certain your wife has never had contact with him again ? Keeping compromising Polaroids and journals doesn't lead me to think what they had was completely devoid of emotion. Who keeps mementos from a one night stand ? especially after they are married.

I am sorry you are hurting. Counseling does help, I can attest to that. Meds, despite the stigma, are sometimes needed to weather the rough spots and gain some clarity about what direction you want to take.

Listen to me clearly. You are in a bad spot. I understand I've been close to where you are now. You really need some help. This isn't going to get better on it's own. This isn't something your W seems ready to discuss with you. You need some support. Is there anyone close you can reach out to ?

I know you don't like the sound of IC, but if you really want the hurting to stop, you have to unload this somewhere.

ETA:

Suggests me there is probably more going on than you are aware of.

Bingo. That is why she wants to let it go and wants to avoid talking about it. I am sorry, but those of us who have been around for awhile have seen this play out all too often.

[This message edited by numb&dumb at 1:14 PM, March 7th (Friday)]

Gently here Stu. I get that you are freaking out and it's acceptable. We understand why. We hear your pain. Look at the last few posts right before your most recent. Has she really listened to you on your current pain? Does she show any remorse? Those graphic images aren't going to go away in the short term, but if she can show you true remorse, that will be a good first step in healing. I know at first it didn't sound like she was remorseful. What has she said since? Have you asked her to help you with your pain? Have you asked her for whatever your needs may be at this minute?

Hi stu,

I don't want to minimize your pain at what happened, and your anger and disgust is natural and a normal phase...but I caution you to try and have some distance too and see if you can see this more objectively. Your wife has been with you for a long time, and it's extreme to reduce your perception of her to just some slut because she had this (admittedly hurtful) weekend before your engagement. Speaking as a woman solely, I feel from some of your statements that it's not only the betrayal but also the actual acts themselves that upset you--i.e., that if this happened when she wasn't with you, it would still upset you. And that part of your reaction I don't find totally fair. Obviously you're suffering and you feel what you feel, I don't want to downplay that. But personally I don't think it's the sex acts themselves that are wrong. The context, the cheating, is wrong...but your reaction seems to come from having a very binary view of women's sexuality. You don't want to think of your wife as engaging in certain acts, and knowing it totally changes things for you. I hope you can explore that reaction and come eventually to a place where you can accept that a woman doing x or y or z doesn't in and of itself mean she should be judged.

Obviously reacting to this information is a process, but wanted to do my small part in standing up for sex positivity (again, just in the general terms you think of women engaging in certain acts; not trying to mitigate your pain at the betrayal).

stu23:

I really hope that your wife can get to a place where she fully comprehends the damage done by her past actions. It sounds like she can't yet. If you're still hearing dismissive things like 'it's ancient history', 'I'm not the same person anymore', 'let it go', etc., then she's got some work to do.

It IS "Ancient History." But it's your Marriage History, and the memories of it were sacred to you.

Now Chapter 1, The Proposal, has been horribly revised. The sordid details are pretty painful, but more than that, it's the shocking disrespect of you by her on your first day of marital engagement that is really far more troubling, right?

She's got to fully own that, not avoid it or diminish it. It IS serious, and her aversion to acknowledging that fact might even give you reasons to suspect other possible betrayals you've not discovered. (I really hope that's not the case, but she's not helping herself by discounting your pain...)

One last thing, between us Betrayeds.

All of us, whether we were cheated on the day of our engagement, or 30 years into a marriage, are forced to reckon with the horror of Marriage History revisions.

An affair ten years into a marriage bleeds backwards in time and stains every single page in our marriage history prior to it. The stain is worst where the betrayal took place, but it taints everything before it regardless.

First Date. Courtship. Proposal. Wedding. Honeymoon. They're all discolored, all damaged by an act of infidelity. For all of us.

I can no longer look back on my own proposal night, made on bent knee in a Thai restaurant with the best little diamond ring I could afford to offer, without feeling a little stab of pain. However sacred that memory was to me, however precious that moment was once, it wasn't enough to keep my wife from straying several years later. We're fully reconciled, and she's a different woman now. The stain has faded, but it's never coming out. We both have to live with that, and never let it happen again.

I really do hope for you that your wife will fully acknowledge, and truly repent, of that horrible early stain she left in the earliest chapter of your Marriage History. If she does, and has left no others since, then I do hope you can forgive it and limit the damage it does to the pages past. Because when you're old and looking back together, you deserve to have a Marriage History full of joyful memories, not painful ones.

We all do.

First and foremost she is the mother of your children and you should NEVER think that you have to tell a tale to your friends about how your wife was back then. It's none of their business and if it was before you, it was before you How would you two know that you'd even meet each other.

I told you that I'm in the same position you are. I was a virgin when I got with my husband and he wasn't. Point taken we have a age difference but I knew he had a past, I don't let that get into my present or my future.

I had to lay down the law that he can't be communicating with his past relationship if he can't do it in front of me. Sure I dated but I never slept with anyone! He gets mad to know that I even had an ex boyfriend but doesn't expect me to be upset with the women he's slept with.

Set some ground rules!

He was sleeping with other women while we were dating and I had no idea, I found this out AFTER we got married. I'm with you, had I known what he did then, I would have bailed too!

But it's in the past.....do you want to move forward or stay back there.

I cry almost everyday thinking about what he's done to me. But that's not going to change what he did.

Who cares if the other man has a degree, wife, and kids. You're a great man yourself and provide for his family (more than what other men do) be proud of who you are and what you've accomplished. Not many people have what you have and would like to live the life you're living.

I'm seeing a counselor on my own and that's been helping me because "I'm trying to save my marriage." If she doesn't want to go, you go on your own and listen to someone or write on here your feelings. There are many people willing to help you! But you got to start listening and look around you first.

Thanks for clarifying for me on the date situation.

Gently, I'd like to agree with Norabird on this aspect:

I hope you can explore that reaction and come eventually to a place where you can accept that a woman doing x or y or z doesn't in and of itself mean she should be judged.

Again, this is not to attack you or to minimize your experience in anyway. I say this because I think finding some outlets to explore this-- whether it's IC or even here at SI to begin with-- might help you contextualize and process some of your thoughts in new ways and give you a small measure of relief.

Last night my wife and I had a long drawn out discussion. I started it by telling her I needed to talk to her about things that were bothering me but only if the topics were ok with her. I also stated that there would be no arguing or incriminations as to who was right or wrong; just talking and listening. I told her how I felt about her sex weekend affair with the good looking Adonis. I asked why and she rolled her eyes and said we have been over this and you’re making me crazy with the same questions and comments over and over and over. I told her how I see this movie of the two of them having sex in my mind 24/7. I got graphic in my description. She said she didn’t remember much and really didn’t want to talk about it. She said my questioning really made her uncomfortable. She said she isn’t comfortable talking about her past and my questioning her is extremely stressful, and she began to cry.

I asked again, “How this happened?” She said, “I was out shopping and this guy came up to me and started talking and asked me for my phone number. She said she was surprised that a good looking guy would approach her.” She told him she had a boyfriend, but he continued to ask for her number; she was flattered by this attention. (My wife had no concept how gorgeous she really was; if she had had a better self-image she would have known. There was something about her that just shouted sexuality and beauty.) She said things like this just didn’t happen to her. She believed that our relationship was ending or over and decided to give him her number. She said the arguing between her and I was getting to her and she had thought about breaking up with me. I said why you didn’t just brake up with me. She said that I was going on my trip and she figured she would break up when I got back. She said that she didn’t plan on a sexual experience with this guy, she was interested in a diversion from me and the physical contact just happened.

She said that he was treating her with respect and gentleness and she was relaxed with him and he made her feel special and unique. He made her feel emotionally secure and safe.

After dinner at her apartment they were talking and he was holding her hand as he asked questions about her and then he was kissing her and removing her cloths. She said she protested somewhat but she was feeling an emotional attachment with him and once he kissed her, the sex happened. She said the time with me had become stressful and the change felt good. She did add that she was a little nervous when she greeted him at the door and she felt a big difference in the size of our bodies when he was on top of her. She said it felt strange.

Later that night he spotted her diary on her desk as he went to the bathroom, he picked it up and read it. She said she later realized he had written in it. He also picked up her Polaroid from the desk and took some pictures. She said she protested, but he made a joke about it and she figured she’d destroy them later. Through the night she went along with what ever happened physically between them, and he snapped pictures of the two of them in various positions together, doing whatever they did to each other. In the morning she woke up and saw him at her desk writing more in her diary. As the morning progressed the physical contact between them continued, and then my phone call. She wanted to stop the physical contact between them, but he asked her to hang up, and she could call me when they were finished. But before she did he released his body fluids into her just as I proposed. He heard the conversation and smiled and chuckled about what just occurred. He said, here I am “F….” you and he doesn’t have any idea, what an ass. She said he became more sexually aroused and really seemed to be enjoying this new power. She said her only thought then was about me. She told me she was surprised with my phone call, and my proposal, she never saw it coming. She said the sound in my voice seemed desperate and she was afraid if she said anything negative, she didn’t want to hurt me. She said she was very hesitant to call me later with a “No” answer because she wasn’t sure about my reaction, so she said “Yes.” Then, when I returned home she’d have a talk with me. He left and she put the pictures in the diary and the diary in her desk drawer; she figured she would deal with them later, for whatever reason she never did.

That was a difficult moment for the two of us; I’m upset and she was crying. There was more to this but it was to personnel and graphic and this isn’t the place for it. I just don’t have the energy to continue. I’m writing all this for me, seeing it in print helps. I still don’t understand. What I came away with was my hot, gorgeous girlfriend/wife got played by this guy and he got what he wanted, maybe she did too. Also, she really didn’t love me!

One other important thing, she kept blaming me; my attitude, my hang ups, that I was the one who needed help.