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Hi Stu,

I can relate in a way to your feelings of losing to the alpha male. My wives OM was a 'boyfriend' from the year prior to her meeting me. Lets say that he was really just a easy no inhibition fuck buddy over a 5 month period. Contrast to my M, my WW has major anxiety and other emotional issues, so lets just say that the sex has never been uninhibited, carefree, etc. with kids involved and strings attached. My WW just does not seem to be able to let go in a real life relationship of stress, bills to pay, you name it. I contrast that to my *perception* that OM got to have the better sex because of the care free environment. So I get the unfairness and feeling that OM got the better deal. With the A, and the escape to nice hotels, lets say that feeling mushroomed.

But it really is just a construct in your head. I know it be true (for me) on a rational level.

I like Phantom's advice. And I think the truth can sometimes hurt. But it does sound like your wife is being honest with you *about then*. She is right the you need to move through this. She does not need to be a jerk, though. She needs to be empathetic and understand.

for you Stu, I recommend that you:

1. Make sure you get all the truth, no matter how painful. Time to shed the illusions we cling to.

2. Give her credit for honesty.

3. Focus on where she is now ( and most recent years ) with the marriage. That is what you have.

4. YOU need to figure out why you proposed to her at a relationship low point, when she told you she was ambivalent and going on a date, and did so OVER the phone. Red flags there for you bro. You have to heal some unresolved stuff there and it ain't going to be easy.

5. If you WW has been faithful since the wedding, that is what you have: a faithful wife. Figure out if that is true, focus on that, deal with you ego.

6. Give your wife assurances and evidence of your self work in exchange for her compassion and understanding and patience.

7. Comparisons to other men ain't going to be fair, since the experience is driven by where their head is emotionally at the time, not just what the partner was like.

good luck stu. You can get through this.

So I keep turning your situation over and over in my head. It is reasonable to accept that she agreed to the date with OM because *she* had decided the relationship was over (that is a common rationalization from WS'). It is also reasonable to accept that she blurted out a 'yes' to your impromptu proposal because she was caught off guard at the time.

But I keep getting *hung up* on the fact that she accepted your proposal of marriage while she was actively in the middle of having sex with OM. Also the diary writing stuff. What the OM wrote in her diary is extremely hateful towards you and extremely disrespectful towards her. The fact that your WW read what the OM wrote and didn't throw him out immediately is indicative of some serious issues on her part. If she has never had any type of therapy in the interim, I'll bet that those same issues are still inside her, lurking.

She said that she didn’t plan on a sexual experience with this guy

While this may be *technically* true, it's still dishonest according to her MO at that time. She had a history/pattern of having sex on her first date....and especially since she says that she thought that you and her were over.....why would *this* date be any different?

I am a very firm believer that you cannot make good decisions without having the truth about all relevant issues.....so what I'm leading up to here is that you are going to have to directly ask her if she has cheated in any way, type, or form during the marriage. I was a *party* girl in college, but when I started seriously dating my stbx, I shut that behavior off like a faucet. Your WW didn't stop her behavior while dating you, but it's a possibility that her shut-off valve turned when she made her vows to you. Maybe once she was married, she completely threw herself into the role of wife/mother and left the *party* girl behind.......but you will be making a serious error if you continue to *assume* that is what she did because, from what you've said about her behavior, I'd feel pretty safe in betting that there is *more* -- I wouldn't go "all in" on my bet, but I'd be confident enough to bet *something*.

It's been my experience that when a WS is saying the things that your WS is saying to you -- get over it, it's in the past, it's *your* fault -- that there is information that has yet to be uncovered.

Hang in there, stu. You'll get through this.

Stu

I have read your story and I am sorry you are here. What you wife/girlfriend did at the time was clearly wrong to me. Something you wrote earlier also stood out to me.

I didn’t know it at the time but he worked in the neighborhood we lived in. I would run into him occasionally and he would say high and ask me how my girlfriend was doing, and smile. He had met us walking to a store one day. I didn’t know who he was at the time; I just thought he was a friendly person from the neighborhood. A few months later we were married and around that time he said he heard about the marriage and wished me well. He also made a few joking remarks about my wife’s “charms” and implied she must be draining me to exhaustion with a certain action. They were a little graphic; I just assumed he was kidding around and dismissed it. But finding out years later about her time with him, I now understand how he knew her.

So your wife let this guy have his fun at your expense without standing up for you or letting you know what was going on. She kept these crap diary writings - she certainly does owe you a major appology and needs to stop playing the victim and telling you need to get past it. You will get past it when she takes accountability for her actions.

Another red flag is when you said she indicated your marriage would be over if you went to counseling. Are you sure there is not more to this story than you know? My WW cheated on me while we dated and I never knew. Sure she stopped cheating for a few months after we married only to begin cheating again. You wife has issues she needs to address and those issues didn't go away by you simply putting a ring on her finger. Watch out for those red flags.

It wasn't just that weekend that she was unfaithful - when you walked down the street and she let him make fun of you without you knowing what was going on she was unfaithful then too - that is not the behaviour of a faithful wife.

This is related to more of the talk my wife and I had last night. She told me she felt she was never going to get asked to be married. Since I asked, she accepted. She had thought that maybe something might be there between her and the guy she screwed the weekend I proposed to her. But I guess she knew it was just a physical attraction. She told me she called him to tell him she said yes to her boyfriend’s proposal. He told her that was great and he was going away with a girlfriend. As I mentioned in an earlier post this was his future wife who he married a short time later.

My wife said she had dated many men and had been intimate with them since she was 18. These relationships lasted one night, a few days, weeks, or months, and in one case over a year. She said the guys seemed really interested in her, but after sex they tended to move on. She’d get calls from her dates but they weren’t interested in her, it was about hooking up, or they’d tell her they’d met someone else and were moving on, or marrying them. When I proposed all scenarios were running through her head. She thought that once she accepted my proposal our relationship would improve, she liked me and could see me as the father of her children.

How does one really know if your spouse is being faithful? May wife says I’m the only one she’s slept with since the weekend I proposed, I have to believe her.

Its sad she won't see that what she did was crass and disloyal; now she saying that the decision to marry was a flip of the coin. She was going to say no but decided to say yes so as to spare your feelings. Hell of a way to define your future.

So not only did she allow this guy to ejaculate into her as you said "will you marry me", but she really would have liked to tell you no thank you. I question whether your wife is emotionally committed to you; more like 'might as well go ahead and marry Stu; maybe no-one else will ask'. Thats what her words imply.

No remorse; she refuses to admit that her actions were wrong. Her lack of respect is what should really concern you. You are asking her to face up to her insulting behavior and apologize, and all she does is threaten you with divorce for suggesting counseling. She doesn't care enough about you to face up to her guilt; no matter how painful that might be.

Personally I would go ahead and arrange counseling and call her bluff. I think you both need this help, or this wound will fester until she bumps into another guy while shopping.

A few of the responses you got were upsetting to me. I had to quit reading. The proper thing to do would have been for her to end your relationship before she slept with another man. For her to see that as a non-issue is very diminishing to your hurt. She wasn't protecting your heart. The idea that she accepted your proposal without disclosing this to you is also very concerning. You were robbed of the option of making your own decision about what was best for you after such a betrayal. It was unfair and wrong of her to finish your relationshio in her own mind and sleep with someine else without finishing it with you. Then to accept your proposal and go on as if nothing happened. ..not telling you...not good. Now you are dealing with a few huge sucker punches. The infidelity, the idea that the two of you were viewing the relationship so differently when you were so drawn to her, your first real love experience, and the betrayal that is felt after 10 yrs of burying the truth that should have been given you from the start. The betrayal felt from a lie(s) from someone you should be able to trust deeply is very difficult to navigate and causes immense oain and confusion. Unfortunately she is not seeing or understanding the full consequence of her choices or the full extent of the damage it has done to you.

You are in the right place. First thing I suggest is learn as much as you can about the aftermath of infidelity. It will help you feel less crazy and you will see that your pain and rollercoaster of emotions, all the side affects you are experiencing are normal. You need the validation. Check out Steven Stosny on youtube. Check out some Joseph's letter in the articles in the learning library here on SI. Check out dearpeggy.com. I will repost with a link to a very interesting study on infidelity that has helped me. Do a search on recovering after infidelity and you'll find things that will help you understand the reasins yiu hurt so much. Read others stories. Themore you do the less alone you will feel. once you have found some writings that you feel represent how you feel and what you need from here share them with her in a gentle non threatening way. This is very real for you and she will need to understand that and be a part of your healing process. I'm so sorry you have to be here. I agree that this is old for her and new for you so you are looking at it with different perspectives in that way at the very least. If she can see how and why this is so painful for you it can help open her eyes. Sometimes, unfortunately, they just don't see it and it may take an outside source (article, book, post) to help them get there.

Just know you are not alone. You will find support here.

What I have not noticed commented on here is the fact that your wife seems to have been abused sexually. Certainly in the relations she had with her old boyfriend and his cohorts, and perhaps even prior to that. It does not sound like she has ever dealt with these issues and has low self-esteem and that colors her views on sex, intimacy, and relationships. My assumption is that she is badly in need of some quality therapy to deal with these issues and how they have impacted your marriage. The movies in your head will play out eventually, but even if you two are able to get through this very difficult time unless she deals with her issues there is always the possibility of another situation arising. It sounds to me like her she has tried to bury her issues and move on, but unfortunately those problems will never go away on their own. If she can get help in dealing with them then you also may gain some clarity regarding her behavior and thus a better grasp on and ability to deal with this hurtful incident that is threatening your marriage.

When I think about all of this it’s not the lie, or the 10 years, it’s that she gave herself to another person and when I asked her to marry me that’s the moment he left his seed in her. I can’t stop thinking about this.

Norabird you made some comments that I have been having trouble understanding. If you or anyone else could explain it to me again I would be appreciative.

Also would someone explain to me how I celebrate the day I proposed to my wife, the answer escapes me?

Stu:

Also would someone explain to me how I celebrate the day I proposed to my wife, the answer escapes me?

You can't. That sacred memory is stained-- and though that can fade over time-- it will not come out.

It's part of the high price you're forced to pay if you forgive and reconcile. That's why it so critical that your wife acknowledge the seriousness of her offense; you're the one stuck with paying the psychic bill for it.

MING56, I think this brief information about my wife might help give insight about her. She was 18 and (virgin) dating a guy from collage who she really liked and had a great time with and thought there was a future with. They would talk on the phone and spend a lot of time together constantly. She met his family, he met hers. They dated for over 7 or 8 months and he was a loving responsive partner with her, but was always pushing her for sex. She told him she was a virgin and wanted to remain one, he said he under stood and was ok with it. She said they did make out, but never had sex. When they made out it was in his car and he would ask her to relieve him by hand if they weren’t having sex, she did. Around the 7 or 8 month they were at a Drive-In movie theatre making out in the back seat. She said they were into it hot and heavy when he asked about rubbing his penis around her thighs and the outside of her vagina, he had never done this before. After all the time they spent together dating she trusted him and agreed, he had never taken advantage of her before. She said she told him not to enter since she wanted to remain a virgin and he didn’t have a condom on and she had felt there was no reason to be on the pill. He had always been satisfied with her taking care of his needs by hand. She said he started to rub and then suddenly pushed all the way in; she told me she screamed with pain and bled. That was the last time she saw or heard from him, he never called her again or took her calls. Fortunately she didn’t get pregnant. She found out from a friend of his who had called her for a date that he had gotten engaged to his previous girlfriend I think 2 weeks later. She went out with the friend to discover he had been told she was an easy lay, that’s why he called her. She was severely tramaitized emotional because she trusted and liked her previous boyfriend. She decided since she was no longer a virgin and she had nothing to save for a husband, she had sex when the opportunity was there. It was during this time a boyfriend convinced her condoms weren’t necessary. She said he told her sex was better without them and she went on the pill. She is an intelligent women and I asked her if she was worried about STD’s. She said she never thought about it.

I agree with the posters who concentrate on the main issue; that she agreed to marry you and was plainly not in love with you at the time, [and certainly did not respect you either]. Surely having no loving feelings for you should have ensured that she would have turned down the proposal. This would have been the honest and decent thing to have done in the circumstances.

To have stated that she liked you and that may turn into love in the fullness of time is a rocky assumption. If she didn't respect you 10 years ago then that is unlikely to change. You were an antidote to being left on the shelf and that is wrong on every level. I get the feeling she would have married Adonis if he had shown enough interest.

Your wife doesn't seem to understand the insult she has paid you. She could have either not answered your call when you phoned to propose; after all she was deep in the throes of sexual union, or she could have made the OM stop, at least temporarily.

She just wants you to shut up and quit bothering with her with your hurt feelings; she isn't going to analyze what she did and admit any guilt. Thats too darn uncomfortable and she just doesn't care enough to do it.

As I have read and re-read the posts looking for solutions it has been suggested over and over that I seek out IC. Someone please tell me what this might accomplish, how does this function, and what positive conclusions will be accomplished. If you have experienced this first hand, give me guidance. Above all will it stop the agony of the mental pictures of my wife in the hands of another man? Will it give me the ability to face my wife and the day of the anniversary of this infidelity?

OK now: my wife has told me that she had thought the Adonis guys interest in her might have evolved into something more than a weekend of sex. Her admitting she called him after accepting my proposal indicated that there might have been something more than she stated. It is now 10 years later, what do I do? I want to be happy and have a loving relationship.

I agree with Gonna. My gut reaction is that your W has issues that she's afraid to examine and they are deeper than what happened when she lost her virginity. M guess is that's why she said MC is a deal breaker.

I'm serious. My gut is screaming here that she's got something she's buried and is viscerally afraid to face.

The way she allowed (allows?) men to treat her sounds almost like she has a Madonna/whore complex. Keeping the diary and picture might be her way of punishing herself or reliving it. I'm fairly certain she kept those on purpose and hid them under her parents' items in an unmarked box to keep you ignorant.

Additionally, her story has subtle but clear justifications in her story of how the date came about. She thought you were broken up...but expected to break up with you when you came back from the trip. The whole thing sounded like the typical ILYBINILWY speech. I just keep seeing WS justification in what you report she says. If it wasn't an issue in her mind, she would've told you before she allowed you to build a life on this lie.

As for the OM, I would bet a month's pay that he was cheating on his fiancé. He mentioned a GF and got M a month after. Unless it was whirlwind romance and elopement...

You should consider contacting her with the date and let her know her life was built on a lie too. A male...he's not a man, real men don't treat women like that...like him doesn't change his spots when he puts a ring on his finger.

ETA- re your last post. You need to decide what deal breakers in your M are. I would seriously consider IC for her with a counselor that specializes in sexual abuse for a minimum period of time. Also MC. Think about what you need to feel loved and secure. Then ask for that and accept nothing less.

[This message edited by Holly-Isis at 9:38 PM, March 8th (Saturday)]

stu,

in my (probably unhelpful)comments I did not emphasize how important getting to the FULL truth is. You need to get it all, from the beginning until now.

This is what in a way has to be verified:

If she didn't respect you 10 years ago then that is unlikely to change.

If something did not change then I think the full truth involves a lot more infidelity for a lot longer time - if not the whole time.

If she did remain faithful to you after the day after the engagement, then I think you have something to work with. And, the issues are different.

I agree with the post above, her wanting to answer the phone call from you in the middle of sex is really screwed up. She needs to soul search that one - along with everything else.

The FULL truth will set you free - because once you get to it, I think you will know what to do with your marriage.

Dear Stu...

Only because you asked, I keep suggesting you consider IC for the following reasons:

(1) I am increasingly convinced your wife had and has some major issues surrounding sex and intimacy that she may be unable to face right now, and her inability to communicate with you is going to leave you in a frustrating one-sided situation. You may need IC to help you process and, if it comes to it, as others have said, decide what your dealbreakers are.

(2) You have said a few things that concern me that you could use some help processing your view of your wife in light of these revelations. You have made several references to the mind movies that you've experienced where you are picturing her having sex with other men. You have also made continual references to "fluids" and "seed" and "mixing bodily fluids," while minimizing that she lied by omission for a decade. For example, this:

When I think about all of this it’s not the lie, or the 10 years, it’s that she gave herself to another person and when I asked her to marry me that’s the moment he left his seed in her. I can’t stop thinking about this.

This is just me, but I've found your emphasis on these matters curious.

I've also been concerned with the conversation you mentioned where you asked (demanded?) she give you a BJ. I worry that the emotional state you are in has pushed you in certain directions that aren't the healthiest as it concerns your interactions with your wife. Talking to an IC might help you come up with more productive strategies.

(3) I can't speak for Norabird... but, as a feminist, language that focuses on the idea of a woman "giving herself" to another man or that views a woman's sexuality and sexual acts in a degrading fashion (regardless of context) are problematic. I don't want to say too much about this now, because I don't think it's essential for you to hear as you attempt to get your feet under you, but consider how the man she slept with that weekend is being called an "Alpha Male" to whom you "lost" whereas your wife is essentially getting slut shamed. Again, I think this is likely a topic for another time... but, nonetheless, I think the essential take-away is the same: there are a whole host of issues having to do with intimacy, communication, honesty that must be addressed here.

((hugs))

[This message edited by PhantomLimb at 10:00 PM, March 8th (Saturday)]

I don't see the preoccupation with having the OM's sperm still inside his fiancé when he had sex with her as an issue. I think it's perfectly understandable.

Maybe it's because MrH is the only man I've ever been with, so perhaps, like the OP I expect some sort of "distance" between sexual partners. I can't even think of the times during HB that I likely encountered "essence of xOw2". Even though MrH says he showered each time. I did not get into a relationship, save myself for one person in order to share their bodily fluids during my intimate, vulnerable moments.

Honestly, I feel like I was treated like a whore during that time. After all, both xOw2 and MrH knew their other partners. I did not. You don't bother to tell whores who else you're screwing, you just use them. I can imagine that as a male, Stu felt some variation of that. Cukholded, fooled in one of the most disgraceful ways he could imagine.

Semantics...not the time for going into debating a newly hurt BH on "slut shaming" vs "alpha males". He's actually made excuses for his W and indeed accepted her past sexual attitudes (sex on first dates, no condoms and so on) up until this point. At this point her "free sexuality" crashed right into what he believed was a monogamous M. Instead he finds out he was betrayed literally from the moment he was engaged. Nope, not the time to get into semantics.

I actually agree with everything you've said, Holly-Isis. I was just trying to answer some of the reasons that I have suggested IC (in light of his question). All of the thoughts you are having are totally valid, Stu. It just helps to be able to talk to someone who can help you work through them. That you are on SI testifies to that fact.

PHANTOM LIMB: 24/7 I’m consumed by what happened. I play and replay in my mind her with him, and it’s only him (Adonis). I don’t care what went on before me; I didn’t know her then. I believed that once you had a relationship it was only between those 2 people. The fact that she had sex with this guy is and was a slap at me and who I am and what I believe. The bodily fluids represent the greatest deceit. The seed, sperm represents the giving of life, or the greatest gift a man can give women he loves and shares a special bond with. Her acceptance of this gift (fluids) if you will in whatever form it may be is the lie. We all have secrets some great and some small to whatever degree they might be. I can forgive a lie and the time it takes to say it, with some exceptions. But the physical connection between two people is a trust, a union of commitment. She broke that commitment to me that trust bond. The exchange of bodily fluids didn’t necessarily have to be internal; the fact is she helped him to release these fluids. She made a connection with him and her various body openings accepted his fluids (I have the pictures and the diary). I would be able to work through a kiss, a hug and be able to sleep through the night; it might take a few days. Then I return home and have sex with him, his fluids are in her; my sperm are mixing with his; my penis is sharing his gift to her. I have seen porn movies and have laughed at the actions of the performers; my wife was not a performer in a porn flick. She made a decision to go along with whatever he wanted to do with her and allow him take pictures. She told me it wasn’t her idea, but the pictures remained for someone to view.

My comment about the BJ was meant as a rhetorical one stating where my mental health was headed. Yes it was cruel and I realized it and I think I said I removed myself from her. Regarding “giving herself,” it was my girlfriend who gave herself to Adonis. Adonis’s girlfriend if she knew would say he gave himself to her. It doesn’t matter what the sex is. If I had been involved with another woman, I gave myself to that women. If we were single and not committed to someone else who cares. Single adults make their own decisions about who they will or won’t connect with.

All my adult life I have been in competition with Alpha males, and some that I have known aren’t people I grew to like. I played sports and met many there; I also lived in locations with them as well. My experience with them was that they used people and abused as well. When it came to women, it was who could score the most F….s.” A couple of Alpha males I had to live with in a dorm kept a chart of who they had sex with and rated the performance of the women and what activities they got the girls to perform. And yes some even had pictures to prove what they said was true. I will admit that as an older teen ager in their environment I thought they were cool. As I got older I despised this behavior. I have been a regular guy who has had to work hard for everything, nothing came easy to me. I excelled in school, met and dated great women and respected the people I came inciontact with, even in the work place. I was successful. To find out that this Alpha male Adonis was involved with the women I loved has repulsed me and is causing great torment. I have been emotional writing this and I apologize for ranting. I hope I have been able to state my reasoning.

PHANTOM LIMB: Remember besides the pictures, I met this guy and had conversations with him. Some of our talks lasted 1/2 hour or longer. I know this guy, he is real, not an imaginary character. This makes it real. I shook his hand; I may have even shared a Coke drink with him. I know his touch, what his hand looks like. That particular summer I even saw him shirtless wearing extremely tight short shorts. As I said he was a good looking man and did have the effect of making me uncomfortable. The budge in his pants couldn't be missed. Also I saw him and my girlfriend talking while we were on the street corner. I remember the why he looked at her and touched her shoulder. This just feed the images I see.