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Madhatters Only Thread

Topic is Sleeping.
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Mickie500 ( Member #74292) posted at 4:53 PM on Thursday, June 25th, 2020

I love your name “leavingorbit” it feels like I have left orbit.

I am in IC. He advises against it of course.

If my husband had Only done What I did I with my less than 3 hours with both men I’d be better off.

For me the cheating, the sneaking, the lying, the sex...etc is what constitutes infidelity. I confessed about the guy I had coffee with.

I am mostly talk unless the universe conspires to let me get even and I really doubt the universe will let me do that. So until I’m out of this bitter ego stage, I’ll just have to plot and plan all the things I would do if I had the balls.

posts: 350   ·   registered: Apr. 23rd, 2020   ·   location: Chicago
id 8554522
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crazyblindsided ( Member #35215) posted at 12:44 AM on Friday, June 26th, 2020

For Mickie500:

I madhattered right after D-Day1 almost immediately. A co-worker had been flirting with me for months and I never budged in my boundaries until D-Day. I basically gave myself the green light because I thought I deserved to step out if my WS did and was hell bent on it. So I started flirting back with co-worker and ended up having a 6 week affair which I ended due to not liking how it made me feel. The lying and just overall not being a good person. I used my Mom's past A's to give me the green light to have my own I was out of my mind, but glad it ended and WS does know about it. I answered all his questions and was there to support him through his anger. I even went to IC for my A. Unfortunately he did not do the same for me with his A's. He is not remorseful, only will admit truth when confronted with facts, gaslights and emotionally abuses.

fBS/fWS (me):48 Mad-hattered after DD1
XWS:50 Serial Cheater, NPD tendencies
Together 24 years, Married 19
DD(18) DS(15)
DD1 (2008) COW, DD2 (2012) MOW, False R (2014) Same MOW. DD3 (2019) Webcam girl

posts: 8038   ·   registered: Apr. 2nd, 2012   ·   location: California
id 8554658
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Shttrdshtpll ( New Member #74613) posted at 4:16 AM on Saturday, June 27th, 2020

Anyone have any tips for dealing with simultaneous A's, ways to escape from each other while still trying to rebuild trust? My wife and I are having some serious struggles with in-house separation and rules.

Hers was a long-term affair, while mine was an one night stand. Our D-Days were self confessed, and days apart.

Anyways, we've been trying to limit the time that we would spend out side the apartment, but we've ran into a hitch. I'm trying to limit the time we spend together, as I'm attempting to resist the hysterical bonding. The new apartment doesn't have much space to escape. We'll each have our own room, but that's kind of all the escape we get. Unless we go out side and brave COVID, and are out of each other's sight. We have a few friends that we both think are trusty worthy to keep eyes on us when were out, but that kind of escape is a calculated risk.

posts: 28   ·   registered: Jun. 18th, 2020
id 8555155
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metoohurt ( Member #62685) posted at 8:31 AM on Saturday, June 27th, 2020

Hey Mickie 500,

The pain you feel won’t go away because you have a revenge affair, because it’s revenge. Your husband had feelings for this person, you won’t. You’re just using whoever it is to get back at him. Trust me. I’ve been there. Your scheme is more thought out though and a bit strange. Wanting to go to the same hotel etc.

It’s a tough situation and I won’t advise you either way. I’ll tell you that it just happened with me after being hit at a bar and it just evolved. It wasn’t planned and it didn’t follow some rule book. But it also doesn’t take away the hurt. That, unfortunately, is something that will stick with you for life.

posts: 226   ·   registered: Feb. 12th, 2018
id 8555169
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leavingorbit ( Member #69680) posted at 6:44 PM on Friday, July 3rd, 2020

Thank you, Mickie! It’s definitely how I felt, too. Everything changed after discovery for me and my husband. There’s a term for it, “cognitive dissonance.” Reading about cognitive dissonance has been helpful in my recovery because it helps me take out the value judgments and black/white thinking. It keeps things at a, “this is what I want/do not want” level instead of a “you’re such a piece of shit” level.

I had lots of those angry and vengeful thoughts. I started making more progress in my own healing when I approached those thoughts, sat down with them, and gently examined them. For me, those thoughts were about ME being garbage. And I wasn’t. Neither was my husband. He coped in the best way he knew how, and so did I. Then we both wanted to do better. If he hadn’t wanted to or if I hadn’t wanted to, it would be about our own fears individually - not each other.

It takes time. Time, time, time. There’s so much fear. Be gentle with yourself. How are you doing lately?

Hi, Shttrdshtpll. How are you doing? We struggled with that, too. Finding individual activities to focus on and enrich was helpful for us. Taking time for ourselves, doing individual self improvement. My husband’s into motorcycle stuff and he started baking. I like to do yoga and go for walks. Reading, lots of reading. I think building a mindfulness practice could be very helpful for you. There’s lots of meditation apps out there. Hope you’re finding some peace.

Things are ok here! We’re turning to each other after a rough stretch with some health issues and some important individual work. Learning everyday how to practice compassion and empathy. I feel very grateful for the opportunity and the time we have.

When we drop fear, we can draw nearer to people, we can draw nearer to the earth, we can draw nearer to all the heavenly creatures that surround us. - bell hooks

posts: 233   ·   registered: Feb. 7th, 2019
id 8557331
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Shttrdshtpll ( New Member #74613) posted at 2:57 AM on Saturday, July 4th, 2020

How are you doing?

Other than feeling an angry confusion? Not sure. Our respective IC's gave us near identical assignments, initiate at least one conversation each day with each other, and at least 2-3 with co-workers/ friends.

At this point, everybody's family knows whats going with us. My in-laws were the last to know, and I had to make that call because they made a very off-color joke when my wife tried to tell them weeks ago. I call them and they immediately, within second of answering the phone, jokingly ask if "I'm looking to assemble a harem." In addition to my brother reminding me, every other day, about his opinion on this mess (spoiler alert, he just texts "Divorce?" or "Celebration?"). My parents are telling me to just ignore him since I "know how he is."

Ironically I get along the best with my wife right now, seeing as she is the only family that I can speak without yelling at more than 80% of the time. But we're even still arguing.

She hasn't been acting 'angry', but I know she is. How could she not be angry a month after finding out that her husband slept with another woman? She like to tell me that I need to be healthy, mentally and physically, not for her, but for myself and our daughter. As part of both of our therapies, we need to be honest with each other, and whenever we try to have honest dialogue about the affairs it always about me and her affair. All she says about mine is that she what she wants, and so it won't end our marriage. She said it the letters, she's said it now in person. I'm honestly unsure of what to do with it. We've had phone arguments about this, letter arguments, and now in-person arguments.

We struggled with that, too. Finding individual activities to focus on and enrich was helpful for us. Taking time for ourselves, doing individual self improvement. My husband’s into motorcycle stuff and he started baking. I like to do yoga and go for walks. Reading, lots of reading. I think building a mindfulness practice could be very helpful for you. There’s lots of meditation apps out there. Hope you’re finding some peace.

That sounds useful. My IC has given me some exercises in hopes that when I use them, I can just live in the moment. They work a little too well, and I gave in the HB on the first in the new place. On the flip side of that, I told my wife how awful I felt afterwards and she talked me through some of them and the after feels aren't bad enough to turn me off the HB entirely.

posts: 28   ·   registered: Jun. 18th, 2020
id 8557440
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leavingorbit ( Member #69680) posted at 4:44 PM on Saturday, July 4th, 2020

We (mostly me) started to set a bunch of boundaries with our respective families because our boundaries sucked. Maybe that would be beneficial for you? It’s hard enough to figure out our own direction without sifting through Mom’s resentment and Dad’s projection. That’s just me, though. They meant well, I just had a full enough plate.

HB was rough for us. Shame and anger all over the place. Stopping to cry, etc. Everyone is different but what does your IC say?

When we drop fear, we can draw nearer to people, we can draw nearer to the earth, we can draw nearer to all the heavenly creatures that surround us. - bell hooks

posts: 233   ·   registered: Feb. 7th, 2019
id 8557547
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Shttrdshtpll ( New Member #74613) posted at 9:31 PM on Saturday, July 4th, 2020

We (mostly me) started to set a bunch of boundaries with our respective families because our boundaries sucked. Maybe that would be beneficial for you?

My in-laws and parents will respect any boundaries we put up. Just had to put my foot down with my brother after he texted me that I should get another paternity test done on my daughter. I do a lot genetic work on endangered populations, I know genetics and I am more than satisfied with the company that performed the paternity test on my daughter. The only reason for another one is if I suspected that my father, brother or uncle fathered my daughter. That requires a higher resolution than the one that was performed.

HB was rough for us. Shame and anger all over the place. Stopping to cry, etc. Everyone is different but what does your IC say?

The first time around, my IC said I had two choices. One, avoid sex until I felt like I knew what I wanted; or I could focus on the here and now, and block out every thought pertaining to yesterday and tomorrow.

Choice number 2 doesn't really help. Maybe unsurprisingly.

Now? Don't. I'll let you know when I see them again in almost a week. Never thought I'd be saying this but, fuck independence day. I would have loved to have my appointment yesterday.

posts: 28   ·   registered: Jun. 18th, 2020
id 8557608
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metoohurt ( Member #62685) posted at 3:56 PM on Monday, July 6th, 2020

Shttrdshtpll,

I'm a little confused by your situation. Did you know that your wife was having an affair when you cheated? I assume you had a hunch.

I think you're displaying a lot of guilt for something that pales in comparison to what your wife did before and after her pregnancy.

I think you need to reassess your situation and how you view your own infidelity. I think there is this bs that is peddled on this site that all affairs are created equal. They're not.

Good luck.

posts: 226   ·   registered: Feb. 12th, 2018
id 8557999
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leavingorbit ( Member #69680) posted at 4:30 PM on Monday, July 6th, 2020

Yeah, Shttrd, it’s really tough. I lived for my IC appointments and later our MC. Re: focusing on the present, I find that useful because the present moment really is all we’ve got. Control is an illusion but then, I hang out in a lot of 12 step circles. Have you thought about meditation? How’s it going for you today? Have you dug into your ONS and whys yet?

metoohurt, that’s an interesting perspective. I can’t say I agree. Cheating is cheating and pain is pain. What’s the purpose in comparing? We can only ever experience our own pain, right? I did a lot of that weighing and rationalizing, justifying. I felt such pain and insecurity and fear. I felt like I had to shield myself from my husband’s actions by saying mine “weren’t that bad.” Because the rock bottom truth was that I felt like his cheating was my fault, everything bad was my fault, and the shame would eat me alive if I faced it.

He cheated. I cheated. There is no worse because there is no comparing. Our actions didn’t have anything to do with each other.

I read your previous post. So much pain and fear there. Have you ever sought IC? I feel that holding all of that shame and pain inside of you is probably causing a lot of damage. Your wife’s actions aren’t your fault. Do you feel that’s true? Do you like yourself? How about before your gf/wife cheated?

When we drop fear, we can draw nearer to people, we can draw nearer to the earth, we can draw nearer to all the heavenly creatures that surround us. - bell hooks

posts: 233   ·   registered: Feb. 7th, 2019
id 8558016
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metoohurt ( Member #62685) posted at 5:01 PM on Monday, July 6th, 2020

leavingorbit,

2 year affair is a relationship. There is more than just sex when you're so intertwined with somebody.

Think of all the emotions involved in maintaining a relationship for two years. You are tied to someone. That's just not the case with a ONS.

I agree that cheating is cheating on a very basic level. But to see things black and white means you're not being honest with yourself. At this point, you're just sweeping this under the carpet by saying "well...we both cheated".

We'll have to agree to disagree on this part and that's ok.

posts: 226   ·   registered: Feb. 12th, 2018
id 8558029
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leavingorbit ( Member #69680) posted at 5:15 PM on Monday, July 6th, 2020

Metoohurt: What does your IC say? I’m curious, it’s an unfamiliar approach to me.

When we drop fear, we can draw nearer to people, we can draw nearer to the earth, we can draw nearer to all the heavenly creatures that surround us. - bell hooks

posts: 233   ·   registered: Feb. 7th, 2019
id 8558037
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metoohurt ( Member #62685) posted at 6:32 PM on Monday, July 6th, 2020

I don't have an IC. It's not an approach. It's an opinion.

posts: 226   ·   registered: Feb. 12th, 2018
id 8558070
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leavingorbit ( Member #69680) posted at 7:07 PM on Monday, July 6th, 2020

I would like to clarify something: I’m not saying that because one person cheated, the other needs to accept it. What I am saying is that the affairs of each party are separate and individual. They are not connected. Each person makes a choice to cheat based on their own emotional toolkit or lack thereof. It is not to advocate rugsweeping. I feel each person is allowed to ask for or do whatever they feel will create an environment that helps them heal. For example, transparency with devices and communication, counseling, timelines. The affairs are not the same. The pain is not the same. It is individual and measuring it against someone else’s is using an external factor for something that is internal and unquantifiable. IOW, your pain matters because it is yours. There is no shame in owning it. I personally find value in examining why I feel that pain and putting it down with a goal of reaching compassion and better connection with my husband. That’s for me. I want to relate to my marriage and the world that way. Certainly no one else is obligated to do that.

My point in saying that cheating is cheating is that I feel that by saying Shttrd’s affair “pales in comparison” to his wife’s affair minimizes his actions and negates his responsibility. She is not responsible for his affair and vice versa. They are each responsible for their own actions. The pain they each feel is separate from how they chose to cope with it. And I feel that’s true for all of us, MH or not. And I feel it disempowers someone to give all of that emotional capability to an external factor, which to me indicates a supreme lack of self love and compassion, which I feel is how a lot of us got here in the first place.

Infidelity certainly rips open all of those old wounds. But we don’t have to live bleeding. Not healing will probably lead to the same old blood on the floor and a knife perpetually in the gut.

When we drop fear, we can draw nearer to people, we can draw nearer to the earth, we can draw nearer to all the heavenly creatures that surround us. - bell hooks

posts: 233   ·   registered: Feb. 7th, 2019
id 8558088
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Mickie500 ( Member #74292) posted at 7:38 PM on Wednesday, July 8th, 2020

With every lingering pain that happens when I’m triggered I feel the need to pursue the revenge affair.

I’m not sure what else I can do to make me okay with eating a shit sandwich.

posts: 350   ·   registered: Apr. 23rd, 2020   ·   location: Chicago
id 8558980
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Shttrdshtpll ( New Member #74613) posted at 8:25 PM on Wednesday, July 8th, 2020

Metoohurt

I'm a little confused by your situation. Did you know that your wife was having an affair when you cheated? I assume you had a hunch.

I think you're displaying a lot of guilt for something that pales in comparison to what your wife did before and after her pregnancy.

No. The thought popped into my head as a suspicion a few times, but it was readily and easily dismissed, due to other circumstances. My stress related E.D in response to about 30% of the jobs in my field drying up, literally overnight, stress related to a kid, then pandemic, etc, etc. Part of the reason I feel guilty is because I already had access to everything. I already had my wife's passwords to all her accounts. If I had even done a cursory glance at my wife's shit, I would have known.

Another reason I feel guilty is for not letting either of us revert to a half Ramen diet just so that we could afford to do a proper separation. I feel guilty for caving in to HB, and I worry that my brief endorsement of it might lead her on. I feel guilty for cheating on her. The guilt from that is so much worse now; When she didn't know if she should tell me, she made a throw away account on reddit, trying to determine whether to tell me, or bury it forever and completely rededicate herself to our marriage. I have access to that account, and was astonished by the horrible things people were saying. Ranging from telling her to just divorce me, leave our kid with me, and vanish; to telling her to go die, and even propositioning her in DM's.

My wife is the type of person who fight with a street corner preacher just because. She has put verbal and physical smackdown on people in public before. When we were dating, she broke a biker's arm for grabbing her ass. She didn't even fight on reddit. I can't help but feel that I broke her, which is probably what she feels about me.

leavingorbit

Have you thought about meditation? How’s it going for you today? Have you dug into your ONS and whys yet?

I unfortunately, can not meditate. Always too much going on upstairs. I'm feeling alright, just got out of the hospital. On the good bless, I can not participate in HB related activities for a month. Unless I'm good with never getting an erection again. Other than that, my brother is being an asshat in general, trying to push me to divorce, and my daughter is discovering the joy of art. Crayons, markers, feces.

My IC and I have started digging. So far the whys appear to be similar to my wife's. I didn't feel desired, while my AP chased me in a roundabout way. I felt like I had done something so horrendously wrong that my wife couldn't even talk to me about it. There's probably more. A lot more.

Mickie500

With every lingering pain that happens when I’m triggered I feel the need to pursue the revenge affair.

I’m not sure what else I can do to make me okay with eating a shit sandwich.

You aren't supposed to be okay with eating a shit sandwich. Since I didn't know about my wife's affair, mine isn't really a revenge affair, but do you know what mine got me? A second shit sandwich. Instead of me and my wife each eating a single shit sandwich apiece, we're both eating two, double-decker, shit sandwiches apiece.

The only way you won't end the same if you 'get even' is if you don't regret it. In which case, you would eventually be unhappy with your own behavior during this time.

posts: 28   ·   registered: Jun. 18th, 2020
id 8559011
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leavingorbit ( Member #69680) posted at 9:26 PM on Friday, July 10th, 2020

Mickie, I'm so sorry. Are you willing to examine how you think having an affair will help? Affairs and interactions with people are about things internal to us.

Shttrd, great for you for digging in IC. It's tough. Why do you think it's so important to you to feel desired?

When we drop fear, we can draw nearer to people, we can draw nearer to the earth, we can draw nearer to all the heavenly creatures that surround us. - bell hooks

posts: 233   ·   registered: Feb. 7th, 2019
id 8560120
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Shttrdshtpll ( New Member #74613) posted at 5:28 PM on Wednesday, July 15th, 2020

leavingorbit

great for you for digging in IC. It's tough. Why do you think it's so important to you to feel desired?

My IC has pointed out that I probably place too much importance on displays of physical affection. Especially given that with a few months of no intimacy during work from home, I felt justified cheating.

posts: 28   ·   registered: Jun. 18th, 2020
id 8562049
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Mickie500 ( Member #74292) posted at 6:06 AM on Thursday, July 16th, 2020

Leaving orbit I’m not sure what your question means.

posts: 350   ·   registered: Apr. 23rd, 2020   ·   location: Chicago
id 8562336
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leavingorbit ( Member #69680) posted at 6:18 PM on Thursday, July 16th, 2020

Shttrd, do you think of sex as something you give or something you get? Had you shared your desires with your wife? Also idk, no sex is a surface why. Why do you need it to the extent that you’d be willing to lie and cheat to get it? Just some stuff to think about. There’s nothing wrong with sex being important to you and a dealbreaker, but if you don’t get it, you work with your partner or leave. Ykim?

Mickie, I meant why would having an affair fix anything? Do you think it would?

Tough times. Hope you’re both finding some peace today.

When we drop fear, we can draw nearer to people, we can draw nearer to the earth, we can draw nearer to all the heavenly creatures that surround us. - bell hooks

posts: 233   ·   registered: Feb. 7th, 2019
id 8562528
Topic is Sleeping.
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