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Wow, glad you were able to get it out on your own. Wish my WW would have had the balls to fight for me and come clean. Maybe it’s just me but seems she doesn’t care for the marriage anymore and is set to carry on with her AP once your have the means to leave. That I feel is horrible and is that the kind of person one would want after everything that has been done. I was hoping to hear that she actually would see you once you came forward and addressed everything. That there would be a chance. But I guess what I hear is a cold woman who is just letting you hang around till you get your life together and then letting you go. I’m sorry to hear this, I give you props for manning up and getting it out there. For trying to get her to see you again and she just doesn’t care. Keep us updated. Hoping she will think. About it for a few days and will open her eyes and do the same as you.

I appreciate that, Texas.

It's amazing to me how much of this sort of thing is a who-blinks-first proposition.

She thought I abandoned her in 2013, and I know she's done the same to me now. Doing my best to not normalize my situation. Clearly, she long ago did.

The only question that remains is whether I'll be around when/if she sets herself free of her mindset. Unlikely, of course. And I know enough about her personality that I'd have to be utterly shocked if she decided to reconsider her path.

Actually, I have other questions related to revenge. I realize healing deals with that urge. I'll lurk and ask in some other threads perhaps.

I'm all for an amicable split but neither of us have money, and I need to remain clear eyed about what to do next. Hey, it's my first divorce about to happen. Wanna make sure I get at least something right! :)

Well no matter what it is n your best interest to talk with an attorney and make sure what your rights are and how things should go for you should this be the thing that will happen. For me I didn’t care that my WW knew and even informed her what I had been up too. Just better to be safe than sorry..

Who to tell, and what to tell them -- some things I'm considering, and why

- the fiancé of her ONS, who she wishes to retain as a close friend (the ONS is the friend, not the fiancé)

Goal would be to inform the fiancé of the rough timeline (which I know involves her) and that they continue to sometimes flirt with obvious innuendo.

The implication being that inappropriate behavior begets bad behavior ... on this belief my wife and I strongly disagree: "I can flirt playfully and it doesn't mean anything. I don't have any interest in sleeping with him again and he knows that."

I have reason to suspect the former ONS feels the same about how he behaves: justified, and just friends. Unless my wife sends him another picture of leggings so that he can comment about the effect it has on his pants and how cute her butt is.

It's possible I'm wrong, and that it is truly innocent today, and that "close friends" or even "friends with history" can and do talk like that. That being said, she'd never read Not "Just Friends" without a gun to her head.

- the ongoing AP's _______ ?

He's a black hole. I have zero knowledge of him even having a wife or family. I've Googled. I've scoured FB. He has relatives here and there on FB but I'm not sure who is who.

Any adult? close to him needs to be told? but I don't have a clue who that might be. I don't want to inadvertently send a message to offspring.

I know where he works and have that contact info, but no desire to contact this OM directly, because :

- ... I'd rather their shared coworkers know and karma them both

Or maybe I'd bcc him on an email to them. He'd know, based on how it was written, coworkers know but not know which ones ... I'm unsure if tipping my wife off so blatantly is good or bad.

Grayer area? She actively hides it from them still They make travel, hotel, dinner, and meeting plans with the goal of "not making appearances" and yes this includes "little white lies" to them. Elaborate schemes, like making lists of people who should/should not see them together and under what circumstances. Making sure not to come out of hotel elevators together. Explaining to coworkers why they're in the same meetings/restaurant tables etc.

(ALL of that, while telling me she's eminently comfortable with her life path and that specific relationship.) And she knows I snooped in her computer; she has to know I know that minutia.

Seriously ... at what point is it reasonable for her to show me how happy she now is "because the marriage has been a sham, anyway, and I have no obligation to it anymore" (where there are no work consequences for her) vs. her keeping secrets from coworkers who think she contracts for the AP's company in a purely business manner? Would they not question that business relationship??

I don't see a downside to her work relationships being harmed. Did I not read on this site that there should be work consequences for affairs happening at work? She has had none, zero.

The couple days here following D-day have been great. Light, breezy, no tension. Relaxed, now that she's come clean with wanting to split up, she's free to live her life, right? She hasn't even changed her laptop password.

She can go back to being angry, shutting down, feeling vengeful, even. None of that = regret/remorse.

- friends/family

Still working on this one. Ironically, I see these two groups as the same.

Where recently I would have been mortified if anyone knew what I did, I am rapidly not giving a shit who knows. Thank my fog lifting for that.

Just yesterday I told my dad we're starting down the road to D, due to infidelities on both sides. Didn't judge me, just said, "I am not surprised" (to learn you're splitting up). Fully expect most everyone else that knows us to say the same thing.

In particular, I seek to gain or retain some control by letting anyone know that when we D it won't merely be because of what I did.

Been awhile but wanted to see how ya been

Any members here who were Madhatters Who Found Out Years Later? Unfortunately, I belong

to both of those clubs. Just trying to get someone else's perspective in that seemingly very

small group. Thanks.

So what exac5ly is a Madhatter?

A Mad Hatter is one that has both cheated and been cheated on in the same relationship. I'm a Mad Hatter because after I found out my 1st wife cheated I had a revenge affair with her older sister. (no I'm not a nice guy)

Candy man it seems this is now me sadly...once a horrible broken BS and now a WS... I didn’t think of it as a RA. I got caught up in bing convinced by another BS that we deserved some happiness.. we are both staying in our marriages due to family and many other reasons. Turns out, he was no better than my WH and I was no better than the OW.. kinda feel a bit sucky about now..

First time posting here....

Well I was the one who cheated first. Days in. My bs didn’t find out until about 3 years later. Since that day of the deed, PA, I haven’t don’t it again. In years following I lied well about dumb things really but none the less I lie. Now at the point where I’m asked to provide dialogue from the betrayal, I’ve also gave explicit detail, now at the point where I’m asked to bring it up on my own. Oh and not to forget that we had broken up my bs moved and moved on. I then reached out to the One I had the A with flirting with him because I felt low, wanted to feel wanted, the A partner was brought up so I figured why not....oh and not to mention I was suppressing that I had ever had the A so it wasn’t on my mind when I reached out..I’m constanly pressed about my A when my bf has became the WS and let’s just say he’s has multiple PA as well as EA. We don’t speak on what he’s done because apparently it’s my fault for my A, lack of communication, as well as lying. At the point where is gotten extremely toxic now an he goes between I forgive you and I hate you am calling me every name in the book.

FWIW I feel like shit that I can even make myself suppress it and that I don’t tell him when it happened. That A is my biggest regret

New here

Just became a MH

Still in panic mode, still in a fog

It's a bummer

Sorry you find yourself here turtlesdown. I read your profile. Have you done any reading in the

healing library yet? You can find it on the homepage, yellow box on upper left of page.

There's a lot of wisdom there I think you'll find helpful. Your definitely at the right website.

The people here are very helpful. This particular forum is a little slow. I guess because

madhatters is one of the smaller groups on here. Most of the people on SI are either BS's

(betrayed spouses) or WS's (wayward spouses), so many are not able to counsel on the unique

challenges that madhatters face. Totally get the minimizing and TTing. Every time you find out

something new it's like starting all over, practically. Just wondering, was your one night stand

a revenge thing?

wrong forum

[This message edited by redhorse at 7:12 PM, August 6th (Monday)]

Hi NewWorld-

I appreciate your checking in

I will add more info to story page

No it was not a revenge affair. There is not one sentiment of revenge in me. Such a sentiment presumes to care how WW feels.

It was about me........

send me a pm if you would lie=ke

For whatever reason my PM feature is locked. Re-reading your profile I was curious as to why

you gaslit yourself "that her deception was so understandable and thus no big deal"?

well NW I bought into that she was completely remorseful and the model wayward who wanted the M. Would do anything for it. SHe was SOOOOO remorseful.

But really dominated by shame and selfishness. Meaning me needing the truth was not as important as her desire to avoid.

I guess I gaslit myself because of being codependent or something. I was 'rescuing' her, meaning really making excuses for her.

Hey turtlesdown - welcome. I don't have my story listed in my profile, but I had an affair just a few months into dating my STBX. The physical part of the affair lasted a week, the emotional part a couple of months. Fast forward 15 years, and in 2010 I found out my wife had been cheating on me the entire time we were together, and my son was not biologically mine.

When d-day #1 hit, right around Thanksgiving of that year, she told me they had only been together physically a couple of times, and she wasn't sure of the biology of my son. A couple of weeks after that, I confessed about my affair. A couple of weeks after that, I found out the bulk of the truth about hers. That sent me into a loooong downward spiral, and I can identify with you on that.

I'm currently separated, and will be filing for D in the near future.

I'm sorry to hear about all the pain you are experiencing from the gaslighting and betrayal. I can also relate to rationalizing her behavior and being codependent. I found the book "Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie pretty helpful.

You'll find some good support here from a BS and WS perspective, and for figuring out better ways to cope.

As a side note, I think once you reach 51 posts the PM feature opens up. Keep posting here, and you will be there before you know it.

thank you losferwords - and in reading your story I am a losferwords - so sorry dude

I'm doing ok

Started weekly IC today - will be working figuring our what I want - and if that means a separation - then how to say it and not be manipulated.

my wife just doesnt get it. her family routinely acted horribly and maliciously to each other - then the next day would pretend like nothing happened.

im still in a fog over the ONS - meaning I am not really looking at that until I am deeper into IC. i did enjoy being sexual without mind movies etc. Did get std tests yesterday. anxious about results.

[This message edited by turtlesdown at 11:48 PM, August 7th (Tuesday)]

Weekly IC is a good thing! I am back in IC weekly myself. Good on you for doing that. You are on the right path.

My wife also had some pretty heavy FOO issues. I eventually had to kind of let go of that, and realize that is her battle.

Have you mentioned the ONS to your IC? I'd recommend doing so as quickly as possible. Laying everything out on the table is the shortest path to healing. Keep in mind that I'm not judging. I was on this site for several months before I actually came out about my affair. Shit, it might have even been a year or so. Your admittance took courage. Now it's time to act on that admittance and heal from the damage your wife has done to you, and the damage you've done to yourself. You've got this, and it sounds like you are taking the right steps.

Yep i told the IC about everything incl ONS

I dont feel.that the ONS damaged me.

What i feel.most damaged by is my whole life of not making choices based on what I want versus what others want and expect.

And that at age 50, I still do not know how to decide what I want - so much fear.

I was raised to see the world as scarce and me as not good enough. Hence the fear.