SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Yes Texas.

Actively so with Guy #2 (when they see each other out of town, and pretty much any day over the phone as “part” of the legit business relationship expected to flourish) and heavily flirting with Guy #1 once more and cultivating a possible re-hookup (should the ability arise.)

The tone there (with Guy #1) is to be pursuing him in a flirty way, not outright. He eventually responds positively. She’s always been needy regarding attention and with needing men to do things for her.

The other day, one of his messages was about how he was going to be somewhere (for work) and how it was too bad she wouldn’t be there.

“I have a hotel booked.”

“Hmm”

What tipped me off to Guy #2 was a chance glance with a conversation she had with her dear friend last summer. Spent 5 days in L.A. “with him” and “then, there were the nights ...” As they’re chatting about other stuff like our son’s advancing grades and his height (he’s 15) she’s interspersing it with “and did I mention the sex!”

When none of that made any sense regarding Guy #1, a few more clues quickly come to the fore about what’s been truly hidden: Guy #2.

Weird, I haven't checked out the other thread yet, but I will (and post if necessary).

You should confront your wife for a few reasons. a) sexual health and STD, that shit can call and some of them last forever. I know so many people who have caught herpes - one in five have it now. So you're safer playing russian roulette with a gun :( b) You and your wife are married. If you intend to stay that way or want to reconcile, you have enough information. She clearly believes she's gotten away with it. Sure you could snoop and find more, but why torture yourself? You write calmly, but we've all been there, that shit is gut wrenching at best :( c) if you are going to divorce and you know this, fine, lay low and do you and get your ducks in a row.

There's a lot of things that BS's say apply to the WS after infidelity. Abuse, (physical, verbal), getting cheated on etc. (Mind you it's NOT the majority of members who say that, but it gets said). I don't care if you fuck a cow, you get to maintain your human rights and you right to not be abused forever. You didn't cause this, your wife chose this. What broken in the marriage may be on you, (ie your part, the whole giving 100% thing) but the affair is on her.

I agree when you DO talk to her, you need to put the whole truth out there. Sure your marriage will change from the naive love it once had to an honest stronger and better version where neither of you is wearing rose colored glasses and the pedestals are in the trash. It's hard to ask for things like transparency when you have skeletons tumbling out of your own closet.

Ok so she know you know about these guys now? If she knows you know then what is she trying to accomplish at this point? Have you asked her to stop? Have you all had the talk about what’s going on now or has she put you on the back burner? I’m just trying to figure out her mind set and what her end goal is.

For me it wasn’t about getting “Revenge” but more to go out and see if I even would want this marriage anymore. I now know a good may people who went out after finding out about their spouses affair/affairs and did so to see if they could feel the need to want to mend their marriage. I went out to see if I wanted to leave this destroyed life and start again. I enjoyed the hell out of it but I know have something to work with in myself. I did see I am worth something to other woman. That I wasn’t this crappy guy who couldn’t keep my wife happy no matter what I tried. I love my kids and don’t want them to grow up in a broken home but also don’t want to resent my WW for her taking her “ break” for her real life. It didn’t ease my pain nor will it ease your wife’s. But maybe it will help ease her pain enough to take a second look at it. It has worked for a lot of couple that I’ve met. It’s not for everyone and I don’t condone it even though I did. But hey the mad hatters who made it work took that risk..either way for me it would be a win win..MH and save my marriage or MH and realize D would be the only way forward. I know a shot load will disagree. But these are the same people who will disagree that flies love shit sandwich’s. I’d like more details to better understand your situation. Will do my best to give you any advice from my perspective. Maybe it can help and maybe not. The way I see it is a MH has to do whatever they can to help the navigate. Best wishes to ya..I’ll talk with the other MH to come out of hiding to help if they can as well.

Texas, anyone who is both ws/bs is a mad hatter. Not all are BS first. I was a WS and then later a BS, but it's more complicated for me (he's a souless fuck). Not all MH are WS after being a BS. Your viewpoint seems to miss that. Just saying.

Texas, there has been no confrontation yet and she doesn't know that I know about her activities.

smokenfire you make a lot of sense.

My impetus for opening with is-it-worth-saving-in-your-opinion is because it seems she moved on years ago and didn't divorce me out of fear or laziness. I'd actually be kinda surprised if when I ask her this question, if she suddenly says, "yeah actually I do think we should work on this."

We just amazingly have never had that conversation or clear understanding.

further backstory:

When I initially took my bravest step (to clumsily let her know I was unhappy, and seriously I did not know how to go about it ... summer of 2013 I'd just come back from the first time I travelled to see the first OW (i.e. the EA I'd begun).

All I could think of to do was to create "a test" to see if my wife and I could still go on a fun date, which hadn't happened in several years. As if I was going to make a decision, who to choose. Stupidity.

It wasn't fair to her, and she'd asked me beforehand if she needed to brace herself since I'd lamely dropped a couple hints that this-or-that other couple we knew had something better .... I lied and said "I have no agenda here," but was really looking for a way to let her know I was unhappy. The date was a ruse. I was scared and not ready but did it anyway, and wrongly. Felt liberating afterwards tho, to let some feeling out.

Made arrangements for kids, and the date was truly wonderful. Holding hands in Home Depot of all places, looking for nothing in particular. Nice dinner out, chatted the whole time later at another place listening to soft live music, stayed out late and went right to sleep afterwards.

We had sex the next morning but it was even worse than rote, there was zero connection at all from her. Like nothing I'd ever experienced. Didn't even want me to kiss her. "Here, just get it over with." Fuck you, that's pretty much the last thing your "lover" ever wants to hear, my dear. <- I thought, not said that. "Test" failed.

Afterwords I felt shock at what I felt should have been "a sacred act shared by lovers" and horrible for participating in that act and then that's when it all came tumbling out. That date was the last time I held her hand. Any later attempts by her to hold hands were pushed away.

I was a blinded moron. I tied to place too much importance on it without first doing the hard work that would take a long time to rebuild ... even back then. Never gave her the benefit of the doubt.

She said, "Wait, I might not be in the picture going forward, just because of one bad sex session??!!" Of course that morning's sex wasn't "the" reason I was unhappy, but I sure was dumbfounded as to why she obviously didn't feel any connection either, and was mysteriously OK with that!

I get that her world was crushed in by a bombshell.

Her reaction was total silence for months, followed by a short discussion where divorce was casually offered as an option.

***********

I'm now moving closer to coming clean without being asked, because she'd naturally expect the same trust of me that I'd demand of her. So "getting her to admit it first" is now starting to feel insincere.

This shit changes by the hour.

Question re: confronting my wife.

I said she is contracted to the AP's company for work and that work requires them both to attend the same conferences out of town.

Do I insist she break her contract, risk getting sued for doing so, cancel her March flight, lose professional reputation, find another line of work, all of it?

I'm not saying I "can't" insist on these things but that I expect total, 100% refusal. I'm asking what to expect in terms of what's necessary here to both regain trust an also remove the influence.

Don't wanna be fogged out on this, but nor do I know what I should consider "reasonable" changes given my scenario.

Is there any sane balance between the immediate crisis of suddenly having to rip apart social and employment environments vs the practicality of having basic income ... she's the only breadwinner currently.

*************

My rough outline for the next conversation. Anyone, feel free to make suggestions!

- acknowledge the marriage has been/is false and determine if she feels it's nevertheless worth saving. I intend to show vulnerability first, and declare that it IS worth saving, but that there are no guarantees. I don't mean to treat that as threatening or unreasonable.

- acknowledge I have spent years pushing her away and come clean. I feel this must be done even she says she's already about to leave.

-> the convo may cease, or go strictly negative, or lead straight to Divorce, or ...

- if it remains positive and she's still breathing, probe about her affairs as a way of getting MY trust on a path. Say something about how I suspected, with no malice in my voice. Stop talking. Pause. Wait. If there's no admittance, circle back, determine if she (still) feels it's worth saving.

If by some miracle she says yes it's worth saving but demurs or does not admit, make plans to divorce and let that be the bell ringer, instead of waiting to confront after the March trip.

I will not accept the status quo any longer.

Yesterday and this morning I'm finally pouring over the various FAQ here, and even scanned as best I could the preceding 1100 pages in this thread.

I'm a person who is guilty of frequently wanting to "skip to the end" of any conflict. My biggest issue in life is conflict avoidance. I've long known this. As a result, my coping skills suck too. Hence, my long-winded outlines here.

It's how I got to this dance. I need help with that. I'd likely go to IC no matter what. Need to explore providers for TN (nothing in the dropdown selection for that on this site.)

**************

Last night I got triggered. Need to vent, but it's a Bad place to be when you haven't been able to confront yet.

Wife has been suggesting ways I could resell the tickets I bought, or go with someone else, for a concert next month. Tickets I gave to her for her birthday last week. Tickets I bought before she told me she'd be out of the country. Tickets I bought right before before D-Day.

Tickets whereby, if I went to the show by myself or with anyone else, I now knew I would be attending on one the very nights my wife would likely be fucking Guy #2 halfway across the world. Um, nope.

It's for "bucket list" performer of hers; she did ask me if I wanted to go with her to see the performer at another show since she's not available for the appearance in town. I was non-committal, but the extra cost of two more tickets made it unlikely to be enthusiastic.

The out of town show is nearish to Guy #1. About 100mi or so. On or about the same day she had asked me, she also asked him if he wants to go.

So ... my passive aggressive tendencies slipped. While she was trying to help me make use of these tickets here, I told her I wouldn't want to go with anyone but her. And then made a snide comment.

"You, on the other hand, could go with anyone to see the show.

"Why wouldn't I go with someone else if I thought they'd be interested in seeing the show also? I don't get where this is coming from."

I left the room.

"Why wouldn't I go with someone else if I thought they'd be interested in seeing the show also? I don't get where this is coming from."

To me this is like saying “I don’t value you and what your doing. I don’t need you and can find another just as easy.” If one truly loved the other as like you said “ I wouldn’t go with anyone else.” You were telling her how important she was to you by not being willing to choose someone. Going with you would be special. Basically what she said is 50 different kinds of F’ed up. MH or not..Grilled, I think at this point it time to call this hand. Sit her ass down and throw the cards down. If you want this marriage still I’d say the time to avoid the obvious. Be the man and act as such in front of her. Your losing the battle because you don’t have enough bite. If you love, if you want to win your marriage it’s time to show you want to win and call her out as well as yourself..see where the chips fall.

from FAQ: (italics mine)

"My BH and [I] rarely had arguments because I didn't feel entitled to my anger or disappointment. I'd just shut it out. This was so normal for me that I wasn't even aware that I was doing it and when I started to feel things deteriorating between my H and myself, I couldn't deal with that. I didn't know how. I had no coping mechanisms at all. This compartmentalization keeps us in an emotionally immature place ..."

This is me during our marriage. 100% It's why I went looking for something else. I wanted a total reset, absent of any conflict or reckoning about disappoints/expectations/misunderstandings and all the rest of the stuff you should be sharing with your spouse.

I had zero prior experience sharing those things with anyone romantically. Things just "either worked or they didn't."

Yesterday was our 21st Anniversary. Neither said anything about it, not that we have for many years.

Texas, thank you for that 2x4. It's nothing I haven't already agreed with. These posts of mine are my journal as such I won't always be smart or rational. I own that and appreciate your patience.

My feeling is that she's very able to separate herself from her WS behavior. To justify it. She's perfectly able to converse and be with her A's in totally work-related ways just as much as other ways. Part of the illusion. We trap ourselves into thinking so much is justified, if we are the WS.

Perhaps this is me over-thinking it, but I've felt a sense of reverse-gaslighting, like she's convinced herself she's just friends and as such, presents these men to me as such. Slightly different, or not, from what ya'll call "the fog."

I've been there, I know how dangerous it is and how it leads to destruction. Thanks again.

I suppose that I’m seeing triggers that’s a sign I’m finally learning how to not suppress.

My new glasses purchased online arrived. They are messed up. I may have provided the wrong PD (pupillary distance) number. And of course I neglected to request it from the local optician where I got the prescription. So we had measured it at home.

Went to optician. Will not measure/provide the PD number “for insurance reasons.” After learning from DW that the optician HAD provided my son’s PD a for HIS prescription, I “gently” texted the optician back to let them know that ... crickets. Fuck them; I know this is not an unreasonable request.

2nd task: pay water bill, leave check so that utility co can begin ACH payments each month. They need a physical address in addition to the usual routing and acct #.

By now I’ve missed lunch, am annoyed. Come home.

“Why didn’t you, ya know, Google the info when you were there?” (Like I’m a dork with technology?)

“I didn’t feel like doing all that while there, OK!? I don’t like being made to feel I did something wrong.”

“Listen, you’re frustrated but I’m not saying anything to make you feel/act like this. You’re frustrated about something else. “

Might have been referring to the eyeglasses problem. Maybe not.

Pause. Breathe. Approach.

I walked into the room and first apologized for my tone and how I was short with her. BUT I also made clear that what I was trying to do was tell her how I feel and that it was a reaction to being told about this thing called Google.

She was also a bit flustered. “OK that’s fine but you’re frustrated about something else...don’t accuse me of something I didn’t do ...”

Oh, I’m pretty sure that won’t be the case, honey.

Her always-on, swift defensiveness regarding conflict is toxic to my difficulty in expressing myself. I KNOW it’s a major reason why I withdrew years ago. Gave up. I do own my portion.

In years past, I know I did better about “complaining,” because frequently, her defensiveness would turn around a little later to be an apology and some agreement. But always the defensiveness first. The wall became higher, insurmountable.

I think every day that you aren't having a real conversation with her about your marriage and the infidelities is going to drive you a little bit crazier, man. Do it. Just do it. Get it out there and have a moment that's real in this marriage. If it ends it, it ends it. But either way, you can't carry on like this much longer for your own sanity.

I first posted in early August after we'd been (re)married for a month. My story is in my profile. Coming back for a sanity check, as I've put myself in timeout at the beach this weekend due to crazy arguments and running in circles with H.

As far as I can tell, I'm to blame for his A and for making him miserable for the months after we were married because I would bring it up after he would tell me how miserable I was making him.

I'm frustrated because when I cheated, we had been separated and not speaking for 3 months, headed for D, living 1200 miles apart. His "payback" was 12 years later after he proposed to me and I thought we were in a good place. I'm not justifying what I did. I knew when I told him that it would likely end in D, and it did. I didn't want to reconnect after being separated for that 3 months and have any lies. I accepted that and have every time he's brought it up.

But why drag us through this 12 years later? And why does he keep saying how miserable I made him when I'm not supposed to bring up the WHY?

Some people can’t own their shit enough to see anything but what someone else did to them. The trick is determining if he needs help, time, or time’s up.

Regardless, it seems to me that when he’s upset about 12 years ago, he needs to be able to say why and not simply “compare” them or place blame. His complaint is either valid or not. Which is it?

That’s all according to what I’ve read here, at any rate.

[Monday morning is my target for publicly owning my own shit and for confronting my wife’s infidelities. I preach a better speech than I give currently.]

He brought up my A shortly after we started spending time together again in 2016. We had multiple discussions, I answered every question he asked, took full responsibility, told him I'd use this time to show him that I was trustworthy. I know the A never would have happened if I had any inkling we were going to consider working anything out at that time. Still my fault and I own it.

He drilled into me that another occurrence would not be tolerated; I agreed. I'm guessing we had that conversation at least once per month for a year. I figure he shouldn't have remarried me if he hadn't actually worked through it.

Then I find out that for the last 7 months of that year he was doing exactly what he was preaching against, and then some. The hypocrisy of it still grates on me. The fact that he was sleeping with one woman and going out with his buddies looking for other women all the while I was waiting 1200 miles away, telling him every move I made, always planning the next trip to see him (every 2 weeks).

Now if he's not angry, he'll say he's sorry for all of that and it was wrong. When he's angry he tells me that I deserved it and I just made him miserable after I found out. I learned I won't get any remorse from him and decided to just drop it. My father got sick and passed away shortly after my first post on here in Aug. I couldn't deal with all of this and his passing at the same time. Truth be told, H made it twice as stressful because of his selfish ways anyway. Threw fits because of the time I was spending in the hospital with my dad, kept the car so I had to uber back to the hospital in the middle of the night.

Lots of accountability issues and he likes to just put it back on me. We got into a disagreement because my adult daughter who is in the military was stopping by last weekend and he didn't have the appropriate notice for her to spend the night so he flipped out and it turned into I'm a bitch and cheated on him 13years ago.

I can't take the circles he's running me around in.

Part 1

We had a long discussion this morning. Our first honest talk in years.

In the years leading up to my summer 2013 bombshell, she had also not been perfectly thrilled with the marriage but accepted what we had as good-enough. From her perspective, she was not “settling” so much as aware of what she had, which was overall OK with her, as she described it to me this morning. She said up until summer 2013, she considered herself thankful to have what she had.

Today, I learned from her that when I finally let her know summer 2013 I was unhappy, the message received was that I didn’t want her. Yes, I was gamely trying to say that, influenced by fog. It didn’t resonate as meaning I might want her, with some help. So her reaction was to take care of #1, not to invest anything more in me. She’d already been for me “who she had needed to be” … despite knowing I was unhappy with the marriage. WTF. So yeah … all on me. Ain’t that sweet?

For her, I crossed a line with her trust. Killed it by admitting my loyalty was not 100%. For her (and for my fog-self) indecision was the same as having made a decision against her. This was long before my ONS, and before I knew I was just starting myself up in the EA.

It's ironic my infidelities didn't seem to hurt her, because 1) she flipped an internal switch already ( or soon after, without explicitly telling me so ) and 2) because they hadn't truly come to fruition yet!

I had effectively abandoned her, she said, by letting her know I couldn’t necessarily be there for her always. “Helpless” to change the situation, she changed tack and gave up since “fixing” me didn’t inherently involve her.

So that’s why in 2013 there was no fight, never from her any “Honey, what’s wrong/how do we fix this?” I feel I wanted and needed some of that.

Love can be about giving people things they don’t deserve, sometimes? (Don’t answer that.)

Part 2

I spent a lot of time this morning describing how my conflict avoidance and shitty coping skills severely harmed me and everything I have done to her. Root causes.

I repeatedly described how I was in a fog and how it impacted my behavior, my attitude, expectations, the damage to her and the marriage. Regret. Remorse. I was not there this morning to “beg her” for anything nor did she expect/want it. Yet, I wanted to make her aware I do not feel as if I am the person I was. That me is dead, as it must be. “Great for you, but I’m already gone.”

She knew about my EA before she’d confronted me Xmas 2014. I’d come home from the family trip summer 2013 where I’d made the “amazing new friend (ANF).” The next few days I lamely tried to drop some vague “complaints” in random conversation about what-we-didn’t-have-together. It was the best I knew how to do at the time.

And then I went out of town under the auspices of spending more time with my family I’d just spent a week with?! and to see some friends there … but seeking the ANF, like a moth to a flame. I hugged my kids and my in-laws goodbye and left my wife standing there. That’s when she knew.

When I came back, and my wife and I had that really nice last date I mentioned here earlier, the damage had already been done. Little wonder the sex was reluctant from her, and that it triggered me to divulge my unhappiness — finally. Even then, she said nothing about her suspicions. I wish she had, but I cannot stand here today and claim it would have shook me out of my funk.

Part 3

I had to some clean for myself, and that also meant mentioning my ONS with the family friend. She was surprised learning who it was but again, not angry. Doesn’t care about her, because … she doesn’t care about the “us”.

Took me a long while into it but I let her know what I knew. The guy she had her ONS with she considers a friend worthy of keeping for reasons unrelated to what they did. He was a friend before and since, and that “it’s done.”

I tried to let her know it might not be done, and that she can’t really know if it’ll ever be done, if she continues to flirt heavily. She feels differently and has a strong sense of separation about that. She’s always been terribly flirty. I don’t roll that way at all, and so it hurts my self esteem and/or disrespects me. Take your pick.

And so when I let her know I knew about the other guy, the long term affair, she indicated she was perfectly comfortable in her decision to retain that as well, as an ongoing relationship. She’s good for now, as a practical matter, with our arrangement. I’m unemployed and she recognizes my need for some basic shelter. Also, he lives in another country so there's that.

So until I get a job, leave and divorce, however the fuck that’s supposed to work, I’m wondering at what point we introduce ourselves to people as, being married but that she’s in another relationship. I’m wondering at what point her coworkers will/should also realize that lie they’ve been told. I’m wondering if the older flame’s fiancé needs to be told about his behavior. I’m wondering if the friends she has confided to about her displeasure in the marriage also know, or would care, that she may have additionally hid her behavior from them?

I’m wondering at what point our kids know any of this. “Oh, Dad’s moving because he and I have a history of cheating on each other. We decided not to try and reconcile and just move on with our lives. That’s a bummer, but we’re good friends still!”

Part 4

We talked about things that are real (being there for kids, doing the non-glamorous aspects like laundry etc) vs. things that are fantasy. She has no illusions about “wanting to be with” the other guy forever, but that doing that/being that for herself is perfectly valid, regardless of my apparent “epiphany” here.

She honestly told me reconciling is far from her mind, now. I never claimed this morning it would work, but that I feel we owe it to each other to consider it as an option before punting. She did not agree than people should feel obliged to have an outstanding question answered, if the question has already been answered in some other way.

I again, let her know that it’s possible she may feel differently later about her perception of the path she has chosen.

She did let me know she’s seen some positive changes in me the last few months. I let her know I knew I needed to be more engaged, aware, in the moment here, and so have acted to make it happen. Over Xmas I remembered looking at her in a different light, in that family setting. She was comfortable and happy visiting at my dad’s house.

Part 5

I thanked her for the discussion and asked her for one more thing, a hug. It was a really nice and long hug. I mentioned, “Feb 2014 was the last time we did this. I pulled away from the hug you initiated that day. I wish now I hadn’t.”