SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I often agree with Bigger but I think if Walloped reconciles, he owes her no apologies. He would doing her a favor by reconciling and overcoming his pains in order to make the marriage survive.

I understand Bigger's point about his situation, which was a horrible story, but I even feel it was within his rights to do what he did back then.

Like I said Western; the main reason I would apologize are personal. I would do it for ME rather than for her. Maybe not the ideal moral reasons to apologize but it’s at least an acknowledgement that me – Bigger – this much older and experienced, know better.

Maybe Walloped is a better man than I (not a stretch…) and hasn’t said or done a single thing that wasn’t directly conductive to ending the affair….

Chances are words have been said in anger – no matter how justified – that need to be addressed later at the right time. That time isn’t now.

Equally importantly I wanted glasshouse to know that his views have been heard and noted and are as valid as many others. Frankly I have seen other posts on this thread that I would consider more insulting, abusive and damaging that what glasshouse posted, and think a public lynching isn’t in order.

Glasshouses, it's hard to know how where to begin in responding to you. There are so many multiple realities here with respect to infidelity of which you seem ignorant (not a pejorative, you just don't seem to know).

First, here--as in life--there is all sorts of firm conversation about how talk is cheap--that actions tell all. Walloped didn't DO anything wrong in his actions; he SAID some harsh things in anger. Conversely, his WW didn't SAY anything harsh when she was in her affair, but ACTED incredibly harmfully--especially to W. The difference is, well, EVERYTHING.

Second, the ONLY hope for a relationship to survive infidelity is for the wayward to be shocked back to reality. There are SO many stories here showing how trying to "nice" them back just doesn't work. Mine is one of them. Trying to "nice" back my WW = abysmal failure. It enabled her to stay in her fantasy; she didn't experience "reality" hard enough.

Third, why is anger a bad thing? It really means that someone cares, IMO. Anger isn't the opposite of love, apathy is. Anger is part of W's response to his shock and trauma, and it's part of who he is. It's up to his wife to understand, accept, even love that part of him.

ACTIONS, ACTIONS, ACTIONS (versus words) define who we are. My goodness, what did W's wife say that she'd do if he ever strayed? My recollection is that she said she'd cut off his nuts and feed them to a dog. Turns out, those were just words.

The actions we choose--whether based on our intentions or "feelings"--define us. The big questions here in my mind are: How much have W's wife's actions changed her? Was this part of her always there waiting for a trigger, or is it who she now is? How--by her actions--will or can she redefine herself now in way that makes R possible?

Walloped's decision to R or D is based on a different set of questions, which is part of his journey through this shitstorm entirely not of his own making. How has he ACTED? Did he go out and debase himself and savage her with a revenge affair? No. He honestly shared what he was going though with integrity, honor, anger, tears, everything he is. His actions continue to define him, too.

I leave you with a quote from Thomas Jefferson: “Do you want to know who you are? Don't ask. Act! Action will delineate and define you.”

Blessings, LA

[This message edited by livinganew at 10:44 AM, August 31st (Monday)]

Walloped...I haven't figured this site completely out yet, so maybe there is some way to directly respond to a particular post and I haven't found out how yet, but your post at 11:20pm last night, the 30th...The one you are responding to someone else's comments...That other person's comments, sound like maybe your wife registered under another name or someone she knows posted...Just ignore posts like that. Your wife is the cheater. She betrayed you and it is her fault and NO ONE elses! People always want to blame the victim. Good luck to you!

Yes, I’m on vacation and no, I can’t help myself. So here I am. Despite my last post (and no, it’s not my wife – totally different writing style), I’m having a great time. Even though Scottsdale is about 700 degrees in the shade.

Okay, so I’m writing a mid-trip trip report. So feel free to ignore and move on to something more related to Spouses Behaving Badly. My friend, who we’ll call Brad (because his name is Brad), and I took a morning flight out of JFK. While Brad knew a bit of what happened with me, we didn’t discuss my situation at all on the plane – I didn’t want to provide in-flight entertainment for my seat mates – and Brad respected my desire to just relax and not talk. I would when I was ready. Good friends don’t have uncomfortable silence – you can just be yourself and enjoy the quiet.

With the time difference, we landed in Phoenix around noon and walked out to a balmy 107 degrees. Whoa (think Keanu Reeves in every movie he’s been in). It hits you like a furnace. After the car rental (Dodge Charger – it’s big. Felt bigger to drive than my Odyssey, but lots of muscle) we checked into the Phoenician hotel. Really nice place, rooms are nice, and overall a beautiful resort. Love the grounds. Koi pond. Cactus trail – who knew there were like 28 billion variants of cactus (cacti?) in the world? And apparently native Arizonians are experts in all of them. “Oh, that’s the something-something cactus, which is a derivation from the something-something cactus, but should never be confused with the something-something cactus, as you can tell by the pale green color and shorter needles.” What the hell is wrong with you people? They’re all pale green and have needles! Some are tall and thin, and some are short and fat, otherwise it’s just a cactus. And yes, I probably just offended the entire state of Arizona. Sorry, guys.

We picked the Phoenician because Brad’s a golfer and he was getting way too excited about going to Scottsdale. He explained there are more golf courses per capita in Arizona than there are toilet bowls. Me? Can’t play for beans, but he did me a favor by coming along (yes, on an all-expense paid vacation - it’s tough, but he sucked it up. One does sacrifice for friends, you know), so I was good with it. Besides, I agreed to go golfing if he agreed to go hiking. Don’t think Brad knew what he was signing up for – both in terms of the hiking as well as my suck-itude when it comes to golf.

Okay – funny story. It used to be that if two guys checked into a hotel, people would assume they were either related, friends, whatever, and once in a while the clerks might think they were “together.” Nowadays, it seems the assumption is that you must be partners (cue Seinfeld “not that there’s anything wrong it”), or at least that’s what the girl at the reservation desk assumed because she told us we’re in a grand deluxe room with a king bed! Great. I immediately asked her to change it to a room with two beds, and Brad, jerk that he is, put on this real exaggerated effeminate voice and whispered to her confidentially, “that’s because Walloped always hogs the blankets, the bitch.” We were off to a great start.

Anyway, Friday afternoon we just relaxed and chilled at the awesome pool, and had a couple of beers at the pool bar. I toasted you guys and made sure to have an extra for the people from Arizona who offered to buy me one. Really nice on site bistro (kobe burgers!) with a bunch of flat screens to watch the pre-season (this became a nightly thing). No Yuengling though, which I’m a fan of. Apparently they don’t distribute to Arizona. Ah well. They really do have a nice beer selection – between the two at the pool and two watching the game I had a Pilsner Urquell, Sam Adams, a Stella Artois, and because I was in Arizona, a Four Peaks Hefeweizen. This became a nightly thing for us – watch the preseason and try different beers. Over the weekend I also tried some other new beers – a Dogfish 60 Minute IPA, a Hoegaarden, a Deschuttes Mirror Pond, and something that was pure heaven called Rogue Hazelnut Brown.

Early hike Saturday morning at Piestawa Peak, lots of steps up to get to the summit (roughly 2,500 feet up), but beautiful views. Felt good. Brad grumbled the whole way up. I knew what I had planned for Sunday and he was going to hate my guts – I was right. Showered and then golfing. The Phoenician has three 9-hole courses, which you mix and match to create 18. Since we booked late, slots were only available when it was 108 degrees, so of course, morons that we were, we went. Beautiful greens (see? Don’t I sound like a golfer?). No, seriously, the backdrop and scenery really was beautiful and very relaxing. We were paired up with a father / son team. The father looked to be in his 70’s. He was kicking my ass. I definitely held everyone back. Look, I don’t golf. So I did what I usually do when forced to go golfing at corporate events – I make jokes. Quoted Happy Gilmore and Caddyshack. Did a nice Art Carney impression (“Norton – address the ball.” “Helloooo ball.”). Oh – and I swore like a sailor. I mean, my ineptitude at golf really came through – maybe because I swung like Happy Gilmore, I don’t know, but I swore like him too. The other two guys were really good natured about it – even tried to give me pointers before they realized I was a lost cause.

More swimming, more beer and football. I could get used to this. Brad and I talked. We’ve been friends since the second grade. He actually was the one who got my wife and I out of the “friend zone” back when we were teenagers. You know, we both liked each other but we both didn’t want to say anything for fear it wasn’t reciprocal and we didn’t want to mess up what we had. He kicked us both in our collective behinds so we could see what was blindingly obvious to everyone else. Anyway, he’s known my wife for over 25 years. He just listened, didn’t say much other than “I’m sorry buddy,” and then said he wanted to think about it some more before he said anything else.

Sunday morning we hiked Camelback Mountain. That was awesome. The mountain is shaped like a camel (two humps), hence the name. Brad is no longer my friend and hates me now. His version of exercise is walking to and from the car. We took the Echo trail. It’s a tough hike. But when you reach the summit you feel really accomplished. My thighs were killing and you really feel like quitting at certain points. I know that I have a whole bunch of negative feelings going on inside. Failure (I know, I know), feel somehow like less of a man (and I’m not a macho guy, but still), and weak, if that makes sense. Like I can’t do anything to fix this. So I channeled all of those feelings into climbing Camelback. I wasn’t going to fail, I wasn’t going to be weak, I was going to conquer this. I cannot describe just how good it felt to stand at the top (awesome views, by the way).

As a treat to ourselves for the two hikes, I scheduled spa appointments for us. I’ve never been to one – always seemed too girly for me (sorry ladies). But we had loads of fun. Goofballs that we are, we dove into the whole experience. Got the robes and slipper. Ooohed and aaahed over the different facial and exfoliation options, asked a whole bunch of discerning questions about the different types of body scrubs and wraps - the girls got a kick out of us - or they were just being professional and thought we were jackasses. You know, that's probably more likely. They have a meditation atrium where we took a meditation class. Believe it or not, it was actually really relaxing. First time I closed my eyes and my mind didn’t wander to the affair. We booked massages. I couldn’t handle a female masseuse with everything going on in my head so I asked for a male. Of course Brad and I went through the whole George Costanza routine, although I definitely didn’t have to worry about anything “moving” as I’ve been pretty much dead down there for the past 4 weeks. Got something called a holistic massage, which is basically a customized hodgepodge of different massage types depending what you needed. Lasted an hour and a half. Was told I was really tense and stressed (no shit, Sherlock). In truth, it was pretty amazing. I felt super relaxed afterwards.

More swimming, food, watching football and drinking beer for the rest of the afternoon/evening. Brad and I sat at an outdoor fire pit and talked last night. He told me he thought a lot about it and just wanted me to know that from his perspective, he is 100% positive my wife loves me. Term he used is that I am her world. He can’t think if why she would do this, but he said as tough as it is, he would at least spend the effort to get at what was going on with her that she was able to do this. He agrees that it was selfish and wrong, but he doesn’t see this as an entitlement thing. He thinks it’s more complex than that. He wanted to know if I could get past it, and I simply said I don’t know, which is the truth. He told me that he’s there for me, whatever I need, and if that includes future vacations to get my mind clear, well as tough as it is, he’s willing to help out.

So, we checked out this morning and are now heading north up to the Grand Canyon. First, we’re going to stop at Montezuma’s Castle (thanks for the tip, H0peless!) and then take a jeep tour in Sedona. Brad’s driving and I’m typing. I pay, he drives. That was the deal. I think he wins. So does he.

Being away is great. It’s what I needed at this time. The affair has never left me, but it has diminished while I’m active and doing things here. Being out of the house helps a lot. I’ve had a real positive attitude while here and have been as upbeat as I’ve ever been since this whole mess started. Brad has been a true friend and his knowing when to banter and when to remain silent is just what I need. The beer helps too.

I have been calling my girl’s cell to talk to them and my boys each day. I haven’t spoken to my wife, nor do I want to at this point – it would just take me out of where I want to be right now. Kids are doing fine. My 19 year old leaves to college soon, but I’ll see her before she heads out. She said my wife has been good about being with them and the boys (took the boys on day trips to Adventureland – yes, like the movie – and Bounce, etc.), but is really sad at night when she’s home.

She said she’s had numerous “talks” with her mom, wanting to make sure she was okay, but also asked her how could she do this and was she looking to leave me. Apparently my wife was very candid. She didn’t tell her the “why” of it, but did say she was working with her therapist on that. She also told her she never wanted to leave me and the “how” was because she was stupid and selfish. That she did the dumbest and worst thing she’s ever done in her life and she’ll never forgive herself for it. She believes in me enough to say that she thinks I’ll forgive her, but told my daughter that she is so, so sorry but she assumes that I won’t be able to live with her after this and that we’ll likely get divorced. But she’ll try and do whatever she can so that we can stay together as a family for as long as we can until then. And that she’ll do whatever she can to help me, but isn’t sure what she should do. But if I need to leave her, she won’t fight me. According to my daughter, my wife told her that she hurt me enough, and that she won’t continue to do so by fighting a divorce if that’s what I feel I need. I try not to think about her while here, but I am happy to know she’s at least trying to work on herself.

I obviously do keep checking in (can’t help it) and read everyone’s posts every now and then (which I’ll respond to shortly), and I appreciate your continued comments and advice. Thanks.

I agree and understand, Bigger. Thanks for the explanation. You make a few good points there.

IMO Way Off...If remotely so, she can sort out today in therapy. Trust Your Gut! Feed The Good Wolf and continued prayers for healing.

appreciate the update Walloped. Sounds like an awesome trip. You really are seeing everything out there. beautiful palces.

Dogfishhead, one of our local breweries here. Good stuff, good IPA.

Again thanks for the update. I'll have a beer tonight for you

Walloped: IF you reconcile then someday far down the road she is entitled to tell you about the pain she felt after it all came out. IF you reconcile correctly then you will listen to her. She might understand how some of the pain was necessary to end the affair and shake her back to reality but chances are there will be some things left that still leave a bitter taste in both your mouth’s; words and things said that maybe had no purpose other than hurt.

Bigger - I absolutely agree with you. And glasshouses is entitled to his (gender?) opinion and I have no issues with his POV, even if I may disagree. And divergent views are very helpful here.

I simply took exception to his characterizing my actions as treating her as subhuman, etc. It was clear to me that he hadn’t read my posts carefully and attributed actions that never took place. For example:

But I do think Walloped should consider apologising for deliberately trying to hurt and punish his wife. Just because it's understandable it doesn't make it okay.

When did I do this? The only thing I could think of is I’ve said a few things out of anger, which I’ll likely apologize for some day down the road when we/if we get to that point. Other than that? I didn’t tell her friends, or co-workers. She volunteered to tell my daughters, and my mom and her parents (I was against the idea). I suggested she go to her sister’s for her own health. Not to toot my own horn, but under the circumstances, I think I've behaved admirably and sensitively, albeit a few episodes where I've said a few hurtful things out of anger. But that's it. So it wasn't the point being made that bothered me, it was the misrepresentation of my behavior and actions that did.

Finally: I think assuming that Mrs. W or her “friend” is posing as glasshouse is waaaaaay out there.

I agree.

Thanks, Bigger.

I also just wanted to say thank you to wk55hn, longtimesucker, livinganew, western, cajun, etc., for your awesome posts. Thanks.

By the way, looking out the window driving up from Phoenix to Sedona reminds me of the Who song, "I Can See For Miles."

...and miles...and miles...and miles...

Have fun up North, Walloped. Enjoy the respite from the heat.

Walloped, thanks for the update as well. Your vacation sounds like exactly what you needed to reset.

No Yuengling though, which I’m a fan of. Apparently they don’t distribute to Arizona.

Apparently not Texas either. I recently became a fan of it when I first tried it in North Carolina two weeks ago on my family vacation. Future BIL brought some from Florida to share. I've been hooked and hunting for it ever since.

I was thinking of why I reacted the way I did yesterday. I read the comments by glasshouses and I felt compelled to reply. It is common knowledge that we are all shaped by our life experience and the way we see and process things is shaped by the said experience too, no matter how much we want to be objective. For instance, the victim of abuse from a certain category of people (i.e. gender, race, ethnic group etc.) will always have an unspoken assumption that someone from that particular group will be prone, more often then not, to act a certain way. And will always have some mistrust and a certain type of reaction to what the member of that group says or does. For instance, if one has been abused by a man, they all (men) can be seen as potentially abusive, either physically or verbally. If one has been cheated on and then blamed for it, then anything that can sound like blame-shifting can trigger a knee jerk response. A lot of people here have been on the receiving end of blame shifting from their WS. Also, I think that the duration (and level of trust) of the relationship prior to the discovery of a betrayal has a lot of impact on how we react and how much it affects us when we find out. The longer the relationship, the more we think we "know" the other, the higher the level of intimacy and trust we place in them, the worse we feel like we are "walloped" by the betrayal. And the more it makes us question our own judgment of others (if the person we have lived with for so many years did it to us, then what to expect of others?) And the longer the living together, and the bigger the family, the less the options of action that would not cause much collateral damage...The biggest thing in going forward with thee relationship after betrayal is, IMHO, the lack of trust in the partner and in one's ability to accurately 'know' or predict how the one we thought we knew so well will act. They say that after the famous "Et tu, Brute" and the realization that the one he saw as a son was stabving him too, Caesar stopped fighting the assailants, covered his face and allowed them to kill him without any further resistance...

Hi W -

I'm happy you're having fun.

This is my experience only, but shit like your wife cheating on your is like a balloon. You are forcing all of that air out of the balloon. It's not going to automatically come back in when you return unless you blow it back into there.

You're in a good place. The only thing I implore, and only real suggestion, is that the journey of making a decision is still going on. Don't dwell on that at all. When it's time, you'll know it.

Eric

Hello W and others,

Thanks for the mid-way travel report, I laughed (thanks for that too!) I am so glad that you are getting some down time and keeping busy...You go Man!

I also think its good that the A is not foremost in your mind right now! I guess what I am trying to say (in more words than necessary) is Good on you for doing something just for you! As I suspected just having a few days would do you a world of good!

And yes, Go toot your own horn in fact blow it loud!

Not to toot my own horn, but under the circumstances, I think I've behaved admirably and sensitively,

As I said before, you have exhibited remarkable grace under pressure!

And I see that your wry sense of humour is returning, definitely a good sign! And personally inspiring me to keep moving through! So thanks for that too!

Just wanted to say Hi and wish you well, and I will look forward to the next travel log!

Best wishes (((Walloped)))

Wal, thanks for the update. I strongly urge you to check out the "I can relate" subforum here, "Betrayed menz" thread, I think you would fit in there perfectly and it would help you a lot. If you've already seen it and/or posted, nevermind my post:)

Best wishes

Dang it, Walloped, you remind me of me.

Arizona, huh? Stop by in Flagstaff, there's a great outdoors store called Babbitt's.

Oh. And when you see the sign for Winslow, AZ, you're almost obligated to hum a few bars from the Eagles' tune.

You will LOVE the Gr Canyon! And yeah, Montezuma's Castle is a good call. Since you're taking in Sedona (and there's good beer there at Oak Creek Brewery! Top shelf stuff! I brought their glasses home)...if you have time (and yeah, time is limited on trips like these), drive just west of Sedona to a little artsy fartsy town called "Jerome". In Jerome is the home of the best hamburger I've ever had in my life. Ever. A burger. A burger worth the trip. Trust me. It is at "Haunted Hamburger". Have one w/ a Flat Tire Ale.

mmmnn-mnn.

I love me some AZ.

Sedona is beautiful. Hike in Sedona. Also, take in some petroglyphs. Take pictures, and oddly, the petroglyphs show up on digital 'film' that you couldn't see when you were there in person. Odd, huh?

"Take it eeeassy, take it eeeeasy...

Got a world of trouble on my mind..."

appropriate

[This message edited by CanoeVA at 1:47 PM, August 31st (Monday)]

Walloped

Good to see your taking care of yourself.

The most important thing and you are definately going about it the right way, is just what you can live with regarding your wifes betrayal if you do decide to R.

That is all on you. I believe your wife is remorseful however that is of little consequence after being outed and the details of her sexual excapades were provided.

I wish you the strength to travel down whatever road you choose where neither decision will be easy.

Hurting Big Time

♂ Member

...

Now advice....

1) My SIL maybe gave me the best advice from anyone back when I was in the thick of it. She said something like "you are emotionally damaged right now. You aren't eating, or sleeping, or even really married. Try picking a timeline and getting through that. No major decisions. Just boundaries and focusing on healing yourself." I picked 90 days. It seemed forever. But in that time, the healing already started, and it gave me a buffer to say to myself "You don't have to decide about your future today." For me that helped.

2) Make the boundaries clear. Your WS broke NC. It sounds like it was at least a good thing (ie she seemingly wasn't calling to hear his voice or try and get back together)....but still she broke it. You need to make it very clear to her what will happen if she ever does it again. I told my WS - "You need to treat this person like they are dead. You can't call a dead person. If you treat them like they are alive, then our marriage is over. Period."

3) Realize one very important thing. You can't control her. You can't. Nor do you want to (trust me). It's no fun being in a relationship where you dictate what the other person can do. I know what you're thinking right now...but hear me out. What I mean to say is that you can't control her....but you can control yourself. Tell her that. Say "look. I know I can't make you do x or y. And I don't want to. What I can tell you is what I can accept and can't. I can't accept a marriage where my wife is calling and talking to the OP. Ever. For any reason. So if you make the decision to do that, then you need to know that I can't take that and will file for divorce." or something like that. Put things on your terms.

4) Along those lines - try to speak in the I and not the you. That's tough, I know. But don't say "You did this! You acted this way!" Whenever you talk like that it puts the other person on the defensive. Say it from "I feel x, or when you say this it makes me feel y, or it's hard for me not to feel z when I think of you doing these things."

5) I will echo what others have said....your WS at least seems to be doing things correctly. Trust me there are plenty that were more defensive, or blameshifting, or shut off (mine wasn't nearly as good as yours has been)....and we stuck by them. Maybe I should have left. But I'm glad that I tried to make it work. And R is work. So is marriage. It can be a good work. There is no doubt my marriage is much stronger now than it was before the A happened, even though I thought it was perfect back then (when it was far from that).

6) Most important. By far. Remember this - you are a good person. You didn't cause this. You deserve someone who loves and respects and is faithful to you. Say that over and over and over. Way back when, your wife fell in love with you for a reason. Your kids love you for a reason. You friends are friends with you for a reason. It's because you deserve it. Look at yourself in the mirror. You may see a person who looks scared, and tired, and afraid, and hurt. But deep down under that, is a caring and kind and supportive person who deserves love and respect. Find that guy. Reintroduce yourself to him. Let him guide you. Unlike everyone else...he will never betray you. Ever! I think the moment my wife finally snapped out of her fog was when I sat her down and said almost exactly that. I can remember it like yesterday. I told her "I deserve to be loved, and I deserve a spouse and partner who will be kind to me and faithful to me. I know that. And I know that I will find that again. I hope it is with you. But I know that if it isn't, I will find it with someone else." And I meant it. And she could see that. Later she said to me "It was the first time I ever pictured you leaving me and finding someone else, and that image broke my heart."

That really helps me.

Breathe deeply. You have been through a lot. Relax put your mind to rest.