SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Your insistence that people divorce immediately is well placed, it’s what you believe should happen for their best interests. It’s your application of that is one sized fits all that erodes your credibility. Because the truth is no one here knows what’s best for anyone else outside of the idea that it’s best for them to heal and find peace. And that requires looking deeply at themselves - which looks different for every individual here. It’s a journey. Because most people can’t divorce immediately without wondering if there was more that could be done.

You may indeed have a point, @hikingout. Tell you what, I will check myself more carefully on whether I am being too strident or shaming (instead of being supportive in my posts as I should), moving forward. Maybe I can be kinder while still calling it as I am seeing it.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 7:32 PM, Thursday, August 8th]

I will never discourage someone from divorce and I don’t think there is a poster here that would do that.

I respectfully disagree. There’s at least one "credentialed" poster here who I’ve seen regularly advise AGAINST choosing D immediately, saying things like "That’s a permanent ending of a relationship that can’t be undone" and therefore this person’s strong advice is to not make any kind of decision for at least 6 months or some such. No matter how horrific the circumstances, the routine advice is "hey you can R if you chose to". As if that’s all it takes: a simple choice. To be fair, I’m sure this poster knows there’s much more than a simple choice, but my point is that’s how it comes across to the betrayed: simple chose R and it can be yours! Maybe an even better M than before!

Such counsel that choosing to START D is basically irrevocable, and apparently the "nuclear option" makes no sense to me. To start, the D process typically takes a long time, and we’ve seen many examples where the adulterous spouse starts to "get it", not at all coincidentally as real consequences for their actions start to land, and the BS decides to give R a shot, as they perceive the onset of true remorse. We also see a number of examples of where couples have full D’d, only to then begin a relationship again, sometimes even including remarriage.

What’s the grave risk in advising folks while there’s no foolproof formula that works for everyone of course, but there are commonalities among those who see the "best" outcomes (namely getting out of infidelity asap) after being horrifically betrayed:

- They make it very clear to their betrayer they will not tolerate being abused

- They allow the natural consequences for their spouse’s evil decisions to land

- They take the position this relationship is over, short of massive change from the betrayer

- They refuse to drive the R bus

- They put the responsibility to change the betrayed’s mind on the betrayer

- They focus on what’s best for them and any kids and detach from their betrayer

There’s of course zero guarantee the above will result in a successful R. In my humble opinion, the above does give the best shot at determining in a "reasonable" time frame whether their betrayer could be a candidate for R, should they want that. On the other hand, failing to do the above almost guarantees extended pain & suffering for the betrayed.

[This message edited by gr8ful at 8:28 PM, Thursday, August 8th]

Thanks gr8tful. I have not seen that, but it’s a big site and I don’t read every post. I would agree, pushing for either outcome is not the best idea. We can push them to see certain things they are glossing over. Your list is great.

And won’t be fooled- that’s great!

On the other hand, failing to do the above almost guarantees extended pain & suffering for the betrayed.

I can attest to this. I had no critical path and had no idea of where to even start. I floundered and foundered for way, way too long. Its one of tbe greatest regrets of my life. I ended up overpaying my tuition for this lesson in tbe school of life and thats an understatement.

I know affirm being proactive as a fathful-yet-betrayed spouse and establish prerequsites along with concrete steps for moving forward.

Thanks gr8tful.

On the trail this morning, I remembered yet another action that did not serve me well and that was to stay in the marital home and same town where the A occured. Triggers everywhere. I stayed for yet another altruistic reason which was that my WW loved that house. It was an older home that we had spent untold hours restoring/renovating and she adored that place. Her design/decorating touches were everywhete. Sooooo....I stayed. And paid a greater price. Actually stayed in that damn place for almost 10 years. Foolishness.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 7:32 PM, Monday, September 2nd]

I am so so sorry to hear, @DoubleTraicion. I hear you man....

With what I said above, I think on SI we need to talk more about the COST of attempting R, just like a doctors talk with their patients about the long-term risk of a procedure. I have seen too too many sad sad men who have lost themselves (and their mojo) in their R attempts with their WWs. They are either still with their WW stuck to a woman whom they no longer respect and who does not respect them back, OR even worse IMO, it was their WW who decided to pull the plug, usually after a bunch more affairs on her part.

I have NEVER seen a BH sad (with his decision that is) after deciding to D his WW however.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 5:06 PM, Saturday, August 31st]

Wontbefooled- I am genuinely interested-do you think no one reconciles happily? I have been on this site for 7+years, and I know many couples that are happily reconciled.

I don’t think it always works, and that people shouldn’t settle for less than their own happiness.

I will say too that those who tried to reconcile and it failed, some percentage regret that, I don’t deny that at all. But there is a whole subset of a group who are glad they tried and found healing through the process they went to.

Doesn’t it seem logical to you that some percentage make it and are happy, some stay married and aren’t happy, some people are happy they tried even if it didn’t work, some wished they didn’t spend time trying, some get divorced and are happy, some get divorced and are not happy?

I think any result is valid after infidelity, and that BS’s should deeply weigh what it is they want and do that. Because reality is, healing is not contingent on the outcome of the relationship, but I think the crux of all your arguments is that divorcing is the only path to healing?

At this point I am fascinated by your dedication of it’s the only answer- do you think part of you feels you need others to walk your path in order to validate it? Like does some part of you feel shame or guilt over what happened that you can’t shed?

This is genuine, not some sort of debate. I just have never seen anyone as wrapped up in a predetermined outcome that is truly believed as one size fits all.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:44 PM, Monday, September 2nd]

At this point I am fascinated by your dedication of it’s the only answer- do you think part of you feels you need others to walk your path in order to validate it? Like does some part of you feel shame or guilt over what happened that you can’t shed?

This is actually starting to get irritating. Just because I feel as I feel, does NOT mean that I have some sort of unresolved issue or anything, as you seem to be implying, in several posts of yours not just this. I don't need your concern.

The only place where my views are considered extreme is on here.

Okay, I will stop asking. I do think most people here are more here because of their experience, and most people cite things from that experience, so I guess I keep thinking that’s going to present itself here?

I really wasn’t trying to come at you in an adversarial way, it’s just you seem intelligent enough to realize that some percentage of people experience good results from any of the given outcomes.

I am still here to learn and see my own experience from different angles, it’s hard for me not to think that others who are here years after their experiences are still seeking resolution on some aspect of their own.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:19 PM, Monday, September 2nd]

FWIW, I would NOT say anything against someone's attempt at R when the WS shows an extreme desire to "do the work"-to understand why they did what they did and how they really hurt their BP. We almost NEVER seem to have that on here though.

We instead seem to have on here most of the time is a BH who seems to be stuck living with a WW who continues to hurt him, and a BH who seems to be getting more and more 'stuck' to his WW in his futile efforts to R--sunken costs, pot-committed. In many cases the WW isn't even out of the affair!

I think the BH who is attempting R needs to be warned upfront that there are all possibilities.

We also see many many men sticking with their WW because of some sort of scarcity mentality--she is their only chance at love and happiness in life they seem to be thinking. We need to understand as a gender that we do not need to live this way! We can heal and then get to be with someone we deserve.

And..you are certainly more than welcome--certainly by site rules and just as much as far as I am concerned, to ask WHY I feel that I do. It is your framing your question as for why I believe as I do, as some sort of issue on my end, that I take issue with.

I understand. I am not trying to say there is something "wrong" with you. I believe it is your own perceptions that make that seem to you like a negative assertion that I have made. I have no malicious intent, nor am I trying to indicate that you are "extreme". I do not perceive you that way.

I perceive that you do find certain things to be a weakness, and you want to empower these men. And I do not think you would encourage R under any circumstance, and that’s okay. I am just if the belief there is a difference between healing and looking strong. Inaction is not always stuck, it’s just some people require healing before action. In fact, I would say the majority of people require healing to a certain extent before action.

Sometimes the way I read you is that you took action and want to equate that as healing. But it’s you who often seems stuck to me. My questions are out of concern for you, but you have now shared that it’s unwanted, and since this is an anonymous forum, it also may be unwarranted. But, I do want you to know that my questions were made of good intentions and not meant to seem shaming towards you.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:05 PM, Monday, September 2nd]

I came back to this thread to quote something I posted and saw some recent activity.

WBFA, as with all betrayeds, Im so sorry for what you faced in your betryal. Ive faced much trauma in my life but there is nothing like the pain of marital treason. Nothing.

To this:

I am so so sorry to hear, @DoubleTraicion. I hear you man....

With what I said above, I think on SI we need to talk more about the COST of attempting R, just like a doctors talk with their patients about the long-term risk of a procedure. I have seen too too many sad sad men who have lost themselves (and their mojo) in their R attempts with their WWs. They are either still with their WW stuck to a woman whom they no longer respect and who does not respect them back, OR even worse IMO, it was their WW who decided to pull the plug, usually after a bunch more affairs on her part.

I have NEVER seen a BH sad (with his decision that is) after deciding to D his WW however.

The cost of all of this garbage heap called infidelity is immeasurable. R or D will take massive effort and the affects of surviving infidelity are life long.

There are definitely cases such as youve described where R is a one sided effort. Such was my case. As I said before, as a young husband and father, As devastated as I was by her betrayal with my then best friend, I was as desperate to keep my family together and not have my kids go through the trauma of a fractured family. This was a huge mistake on my part. Admittedly my then wife was only quasi remorseful and the effort was doomed. I kept at it for a miserable decade and it took a lot of tread off of my tires. There are many situations like mine.

There are also those who D pretty quickly post betrayal regardless of the state of their ws. Some go on to healing, restoration, connect with a healthy individual and build a meaningful new relationship. Still others become bitter, jaded, and have an almost impossibly difficult time building any new relationship.

Then, there are those that I refer to as "breakthrough people". These are the truly R'd. Both wayward and betrayed dig deeper than they ever have in their life, committ 100%, are all in and work diligently to repair themselves and in so doing, build something new. These folks are exceptional. I have read their accounts with wonder. I personally know couples like this and they amaze me.

I guess what I mean here is that how people deal with infidelity is as varied as there are personality types and the circumstances surrounding the betryal.

Thankfully, I was able to move on, work on myself (gross simplification) for years and build an amazing relationship and new marriage with a woman who was also an infidelity survivor.

Having said all of that brother, I wish you healing, restoration, strength, clarity and fulfillment.

ETA: I would add that I advocate that all betrayeds show strength and a steely resolve post Dday to enact the 180 in toto until clarity as to the course of action is detetmined. Waywards represent the single largest risk to the betrayeds mental/emotional and possibly physical health on the face of the earth. I also recommend ice not fire as front facing response to the wayward.

Shown strength & self protection are the only way forward regardless of R or D.
The altrustic get utterly rolled too many times.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 7:17 PM, Wednesday, September 4th]

@DoubleTraicon

There are definitely cases such as youve described where R is a one sided effort. Such was my case. As I said before, as a young husband and father, As devastated as I was by her betrayal with my then best friend, I was as desperate to keep my family together and not have my kids go through the trauma of a fractured family. This was a huge mistake on my part. Admittedly my then wife was only quasi remorseful and the effort was doomed. I kept at it for a miserable decade and it took a lot of tread off of my tires. There are many situations like mine.

You are not alone in that at all my friend.

I am thrilled that you have moved on and are in a new much happier relationship!

@sisoon, Page #3

R is about the future, not the past.

The past can't be changed, but one's reaction to the past in malleable. And I can't get away from this truth: the heinous things the WS does is about the WS, not the BS. The betrayal is a dysfunction in the betrayer, not the betrayed. The betrayal is something the betrayer does to themself, not to the BS.

I will respond to points made in this post, as it informs my own posting style on here. I am not trying to single anyone out.

Anyway, I have at least one issue with the quoted. The BS in fact DOES suffer consequences for the WS, including being up for STDS and having themselves or their family put in physical danger. So I disgree with this.

A BS who keeps feeling that the betrayal was done to them is stuck in a Drama Triangle, and that's a disservice to themself. Staying out of a DT is what lets a BS recognize how good a candidate for their BS is. I agree: unremorseful WSes can't R. Narcissists can't R - among other things, they really do believe their BS is the problem when the problem is in themself.

But, the betrayal WAS done to the BS though. Meanwhile, almost all of the time in my estimation we have a WS who is unremorseful, making the BS's attempts at R doomed. Hence my posting style.

That's why, IMO, some of us say R is possible for virtually everyone. But being possible doesn't mean any BS has an obligation to start R. Every BS can choose D. BSes with remorseful WSes can choose R, but they do not have to.

Well, R may be possible for with a WS who is remorseful. Who. is. remorseful. See above.

But BSes who come here thinking their only option is D should be informed that they have pother options, too.

Since I believe knowing what options are open is a Good Thing, informing a new BS that they have multiple options is not being pro-R. It's being pro-Betrayed Spouse.

If their WS is unremorseful though they do not have any other options but D. At least not until WS gets to remorse. Which is out of BS's hands (does the poster whom I am quoting disagree with this?) and will probably take a while.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:23 PM, Friday, September 13th]

@DoubleTraicon

ETA: I would add that I advocate that all betrayeds show strength and a steely resolve post Dday to enact the 180 in toto until clarity as to the course of action is detetmined. Waywards represent the single largest risk to the betrayeds mental/emotional and possibly physical health on the face of the earth. I also recommend ice not fire as front facing response to the wayward.

Shown strength & self protection are the only way forward regardless of R or D.
The altrustic get utterly rolled too many times.

So true indeed, brother....

The BS in fact DOES suffer consequences for the WS, including being up for STDS and having themselves or their family put in physical danger.

The BS and WS are 2 separate people. The BS doesn’t ‘suffer consequences for the WS.’ The BS has to solve their own problems no matter what a problem's source may be.

*****

But, the betrayal WAS done to the BS though.

The BS was certainly victimized by the WS, however, the BS has choices about how to respond. One approach is to stay stuck in the misery of victimization constantly reminding themselves about how the WS did them wrong.

Another approach is to realize that the WS’s actions impact but don’t define them. The BS, IMO, best serves themself by choosing to figure out what the BS wants and to heal – to process the pain out of their body - irrespective of what the WS has done, is doing, or will do.

*****

Meanwhile, almost all of the time in my estimation we have a WS who is unremorseful, making the BS's attempts at R doomed. Hence my posting style.

Well, R may be possible for with a WS who is remorseful. Who. is. remorseful. See above.

You can’t know that. You don't know the statistics. And all we know about any member is what they say about themselves, and we have no way of verifying even that. We see most WSes through the words of the BS, and we have no way of knowing how well we judge our BSes.

We help each other best by avoiding snap judgements. It takes some time to determine whether or not a WS is remorseful. It takes time for most BSes to figure out what they want. How many BSes start with, ‘I always thought I’d dump a cheater immediately, but now that I’ve been betrayed, I’m not so sure’….

*****

If their WS is unremorseful though they do not have any other options but D.

I know we see BSes staying for kids and for financial reasons, and there are probably other reasons people have stayed, too (immigration status, for example).

The BS was certainly victimized by the WS, however, the BS has choices about how to respond. One approach is to stay stuck in the misery of victimization constantly reminding themselves about how the WS did them wrong.

And another approach is to get UNstuck and to remove yourself from the person who has caused you so much pain. Hard to heal while you are stuck in such an environment--a WS who still does not get it and is likely to still be in the affair.

You can’t know that. You don't know the statistics. And all we know about any member is what they say about themselves, and we have no way of verifying even that. We see most WSes through the words of the BS, and we have no way of knowing how well we judge our BSes.

Well, I am sad to have to say this but all too often we do know this, assuming that the poster isn't outright lying. A WS who is unresponsive to the BS post D-Day, is actually still having contact with AP, is clearly NOT remorseful.

And another approach is to get UNstuck and to remove yourself from the person who has caused you so much pain.

On d-day, the BS has to deal with the excruciating pain of being betrayed. A BS can't escape that pain - it's been dumped on the BS, no matter whether the BS Divorces, Reconciles, experience False R, whatever. One approach is to process that pain. Another is to stuff it, with or without taking on a long-term role of Victim in a Drama Triangle.

A BS who is stuck in the Victim role in a Drama Triangle is the cause of their own pain. I don't see how a BS who's taken on the Victim role can separate from themself.

(Another option for one who is stuck in a Victim role is to turn into a Persecutor.)

You can’t know that. You don't know the statistics. And all we know about any member is what they say about themselves, and we have no way of verifying even that. We see most WSes through the words of the BS, and we have no way of knowing how well we judge our BSes.

Well, I am sad to have to say this but all too often we do know this, assuming that the poster isn't outright lying. A WS who is unresponsive to the BS post D-Day, is actually still having contact with AP, is clearly NOT remorseful.

Sure, when the BS relates facts that show their WS is irredeemably unremorseful. But except when pushed, you write as if every WS is irredeemable, and we usually see only a little evidence.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:02 PM, Sunday, September 15th]

I know. I wish I (and the others who post similarly) weren't always right though.

ETA:The truth instead is that I believe the WS needs to show *serious* effort, or its D.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 2:32 PM, Monday, September 16th]