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Ugh. I'm so sorry. Have you thought yet about what you're going to do? I'll be honest with you, given the open marriage routine, it really sounds like he's going to try to make this about sex. Don't fall for it. Cheating is about CHARACTER. It's about our core values and the boundaries we build around them. This guy has a "but..." in his core value of fidelity. ie. "He believes in fidelity, but... not if he decides he wants more sex." You see how that works, right? People who have a "but..." in their belief system don't really believe at all. It's like being a little bit pregnant, you either are or you aren't. You either value fidelity or you don't. It's that simple.

Don't let your WH make HIS choice to cheat about YOU. It's 100% about HIM. Nothing you did (or didn't do) can make someone throw away their own values system. You just don't have that kind of power over other people. You didn't cause the deficits in his character and you can't remediate them. Only he can do that, and while it IS completely possible for cheaters to turn it around, it's truly difficult, introspective, and humbling work, and he has to take absolute responsibility without blame-shifting. Do you think he's capable of those kind of efforts?

Anyway, you don't have to make decisions today. Do make arrangements to be tested for STDs, and I highly recommend that you see an attorney. There's strength to be had in knowing exactly where you stand. Make sure you're engaging in really good self-care; eat what you can, stay hydrated, avoid alcohol, get some light exercise, see your doctor if you're having trouble sleeping.

((big hugs)) I know it hurts like a sonofabitch, but you're going to be okay.

Yes he is saying it’s about sex. It was a means to an end, that he didn’t want to pressure me and make me feel bad but I wasn’t putting out (not his words). It is so humiliating

Honestly I think your thread is wrongly titled.

He’s not asking for an open marriage. In fact it doesn’t look like he’s asking for anything.

It’s more like he’s telling you that he’s going to have sex with other women no matter what.

I’m a former cop. Sometimes we would “ask” people to comply. Like I would “ask” you to step out of your vehicle. I might even use words like “please” and “would you like to” but the fact was that what you wanted wasn’t really relevant. Like it or not you were getting out of that vehicle. What he’s doing is comparable. Only he’s trying to make it sound better by calling it an “Open Marriage” rather than cheating and he’s asking you when in fact he’s telling you.

It’s the wrong label and not a request. It’s a demand for what he’s going to do anyways.

I can’t see it – the open marriage thing was never considered mutual?

Have you asked him if YOU were allowed to have sexual partners? I think the answer to that would confirm what I’m saying above.

Can your marriage afford a continuous outlay of $$$ month-after-month for him to indulge in his fantasy?

I’m not certain he’s capable of this but here is a suggestion:

Let him know that as is you are not open to an open marriage. However since you have all this cash that’s going to prostitutes then maybe it could be better used for the two of you to get counseling. A couples counselor could help the two of you on the trust issues, the sexual intimacy, the concept of opening your marriage and all-in-all if you two are compatible at all. Tell him that as is the options are whether you should spend the money on a divorce attorney or whether you two should spend time and money on getting guidance.

I see you have three sons…

There is a theory that sons take after their fathers. They learn behaviors like how to be in a relationship from their fathers actions. Some would assume that this will lead to your sons being equally disrespectful in their relationships…

Well… not necessarily so.

Sons also love their mothers. If they realize the fathers actions are not correct they can develop the exact opposite behavior to protect their mom. The dad becomes a reverse-role-model. This tend to be based on a level of disrespect for the dad, and pity or sympathy for the mom. Neither really a good thing. It’s hard to get respect from someone that feels pity towards you.

As a parent I encourage you to stick to your values. That MIGHT make your H see the light, it MIGHT lead to divorce. Either way it creates a healthier environment for your sons. If this were to end in divorce your sons would create a new, healthier and realistic view and relationship with their dad, as well as a healthier relationship towards you. One based on empathy – and empathy is not ever related to pity.

He said all the right things again, but again maintained that our sex life was dry, we are incompatible, he felt resentful, etc. But he doesn’t blame me and he’s sorry. He doesn’t want me to hurt. He wants to do whatever I need.

Whatever you need to be okay with him cheating and spending money on OW going forward, right? Not whatever you need to heal and R.

There's a short list of things you need for this to have ANY chance of working out for you:

1. His commitment to R and re-commitment to fidelity

2. Him handing over his phone, email, and social media passwords allowing you to check in and make sure he is keeping his word

3. An honest account of what happened, for how long, how many, with whom, and a total of how much money was spent to the best of his knowledge and preferably verified with a polygraph

4. A plan made by him to get help (CSAT, IC, SAA) and a financial plan to pay back the money he spent

If he skips out on even one of the above, it falls apart. Can't have #1 without #2 to verify it. Can't do much with #4 without #3 to verify it. No point in having #1-3 without #4 because then he will just do it again.

Given where he is at and where you need him to be, this is a big ask and it doesn't sound likely that he will be willing to do "anything" needed once you lay it out for him.

He said all the right things again, but again maintained that our sex life was dry, we are incompatible, he felt resentful, etc. But he doesn’t blame me and he’s sorry. He doesn’t want me to hurt. He wants to do whatever I need.

Just curious how you see this as saying all the right things? I think maybe you need to raise your standards for "right". It totally comes off as blaming you.

He wants to do whatever I need.

Except for him to stop cheating, right? He clearly can't and won't fill that need.

First off, when my XWH was doing this, he had a freak in the bed at home who was darned near pestering him for sex. I was being turned down for blowjobs. Do not listen to this horseshit about "well I felt badly about asking you for sex".

Is he on disability for his lack of hands? I hear a hand can do wonders for sexual frustration.

Would this be cool if he were stealing money from you because he was tired of being broke and not being able to afford to do whatever he wanted?

The only right things he could have said were "I am an absolute piece of garbage who does not deserve you and I am going to leave and go get serious therapy for whatever made me think that this was an okay way to treat my wife."

He has been having a great time. He has been having a blast. He hasn't been sobbing in front of the prostitutes' doors and staggering in with grief to get his so important needs met while lashing himself with thorns and crying about betraying you. He has reduced sex with strangers to nothing more difficult than getting a burger at a drive-thru.

He had the gall to ask you for an open marriage because this has become such a fun hobby for him. He has NO CONCEPT of what he has done to you. I know you will hear lots of people chime in with suggestions about reconciling. I believe some people can reconcile. This, though? This kind of behavior is more than just cheating. This exposes so very many character flaws. I don't know that a person like this changes. Maybe it has happened sometime in the known universe. Just never seen it myself.

I have tallied so far over $10,000 spent since January. I run a small business that so far has survived during COVID. It has been stressful. I've been worried about it going under. But we have been lucky and have been in a good financial place these last couple of years, because of my business. But I have been working hard. He does too (he's' a teacher) but doesn't have the same kind of work pressure that I do. I am numb and am seeing a client in 8 minutes. Haha! How do I tell my good friends this?? They army support network. What does anyone say about such things? I feel like the biggest fool.

You tell your good friend what you have shared with us.

But keep in mind that talking only alleviates pressure. It doesn’t solve anything.

What happens if he refuses to quit? What happens if he carries on spending money on hookers?

Can your family support a +20k per year sex-habit?

Please – the consensus here seems to be that YOU pressure changes. Yes – that might result in a divorce. But you don’t know. You don’t even know what a D might be like. All that’s happening now is that you feel worse and worse.

I feel like the biggest fool.

I know. But you aren't. I did too. This is just so far outside the realm of expected behavior of someone who loves you that you that there's just no way to anticipate it. There's no way you should have thought "Well, he's probably spending thousands of dollars sleeping with multiple prostitutes". This experience is like coming home and discovering that your front door is made of cheese. Were you supposed to guess that would happen? It's appalling behavior. Absolutely shocking behavior. In no way should you have seen this coming.

I feel like the biggest fool

You aren't a fool, not at all, there is no way you could see this happening and you trusted him, thats normal, not wrong - he is the fool who has abused your trust.

What I will say is that you are at a big crossroads now, because it is open and acknowledged, ou know now and can't pretend that you don't so moving forward, he will feel he has your permission for this if you stay without action.

You must be clear and unambiguous in telling him what you do and do not want. Do not give him room to doubt or gaslight i.e "I do not want an open marriage" "I want you to stop cheating".

Finally, go and speak to a lawyer and find out what divorce looks like, you don't have to do it but make sure you have the knowledge because it sometimes looks much worse in your head than it actually is in reality. Find out how you protect your finances, the money he is spending on women belongs to you and your children as well.

Its time to start looking at action - you are not going to solve this now by talking him round.

[This message edited by Jambomo at 10:25 AM, April 28th (Wednesday)]

I feel like the biggest fool

There's always one Bigger!

I posted on page 2:

He is being almost as transparent as a cheater can be.

He is going to fuck other women. You can leave him, give him explicit permission, or give him a talking to when you happen to catch him. Your choice.

That's what he is offering.

I would choose leave.

As far as I can tell, this is still the case.

Divorce is not a dirty word in this kind of situation. Divorce can be a beautiful sacred gift to yourself. There really is a whole world out there to discover that wouldn't require you to live under this black cloud. There are people, experiences, and peace on the other side of divorce. I know it's a hard thing to think about early on, but it isn't a negative outcome.

Divorce gets a bad rap, but it is often a very good option. The negative is finding out that you're with a serial cheater. The positive is creating a new life without a serial cheater.

He used his words to say he wanted an open marriage, but neglected to mention that he'd opened his side up quite dramatically already. Blamed that on you, no less. Now if you say "I won't be in an open marriage or one with cheating", he'll likely say that he won't do it anymore. Believing those words is quite a stretch. I know that people will come along and say "R is possible", but you have to ponder whether or not R is even desirable in this scenario. He can't unfuck those whores and you can't unknow what you know. He'd have to figure out how to begin respecting you as a human being, which he most certainly has not been doing. I'm not going to bullshit you. To suggest you wait around to see if he changes feels like I'd be gaslighting you. To hell with whether or not he changes or even could change. This is now about the life YOU want to live. This is about your future. This isn't about whether or not he can learn to human. He already wrecked the marriage. That's done. At this point, you'd have to look at him and choose him a second time. This is when you decide that based on what kind of life you want to live and what kind of person you want to share it with.

This: yes, he will continue to cheat, with or without permission, I suspect. I have been clear than I am not willing to agree to him 'getting his needs met elsewhere'. He told me he had been excited about this prospect of a compromise. I think he is now coming down to earth a bit and he is apologizing over and over. But I think it would just be a matter of time before he can't 'suck it up' any more.

He's too full of entitlement to see that it was actually the wrong thing to do.

Devastated: I appreciate how clearly you think. I am normally a pretty high functioning individual haha! I know that right now I am not working with all my faculties. I am too shocked (though again I feel stupid because I should perhaps not be shocked given the history). I think it was a couple of months ago that I actually commented to him about how well e are coping with all the stress of COVID. So many couples are divorcing etc etc. I actually told my friends I thought he was finally maturing.

There is no way I will ever trust him. I haven't for a long time anyway - not deep down. There have been some good moments.

You know what's nuts? We were putting in a pool! An expensive winter long project. I was looking forward to the whole family hanging out outside all summer (with nothing else to do).

I just got a text from him saying "let's talk about divorce tonight. I know you feel trapped. I know I will never earn your trust. Let's find a way to separate that has the least amount of impact on the kids. I should not have spent the money. I should have sucked it. I should have talked with you. Etc. "

Girl, NO ONE is high functioning in the aftermath of this, lol. My doctor put me on anti-depressants because I was borderline suicidal and had lost 20 lbs in a month. I was a mess.

Honestly, if he's willing to talk divorce and not trying to love bomb and manipulate you into staying, this is probably going to be easier on you. He will say blamey stuff to not completely own it, but let that fly right over your head if you can. It's not true. It isn't about you.

"let's talk about divorce tonight.

Sounds like he’s trying to control you. A threat that since you haven’t given him a budget and a stack of condoms then he’s playing the D car. Best response? Call him out on it.

That pool…

You doing it yourself? You out there digging and staking out where the pool will be? You selected the material, the pumps, the electricity, the plumbing?

Or did you get a contractor that has access to electricians, tool-operators, plumbers, gets the correct permits and all that?

Do you think a pool is more important than divorce?

Five years from now – think the pool will have impacted your life more than a divorce?

DO NOT think you can divorce over a cup of coffee after doing the dishes this evening.

Limit your talk about divorce this evening to something along these lines:

“I accept that since I am not willing to let you freely screw around and waste our marital assets in purchasing sex and since you aren’t willing to stop and change that divorce is inevitable. Our state has some clear guidelines on how our debts and assets will be handled, as well as how we will deal with custody, support and all that. It’s too complex for me to deal with properly so I will get an attorney that will ensure my rights are guaranteed. I wont make it harder than it need be and if you want then my attorney can handle the whole package. But I won’t be talking details with you”

When he starts grumbling about potential costs: “The divorce will cost anything from what you spend on sex in two to three months. If you find that expensive then just look at it as an alternative way to get screwed”.

I just got a text from him saying "let's talk about divorce tonight. I know you feel trapped. I know I will never earn your trust. Let's find a way to separate that has the least amount of impact on the kids. I should not have spent the money. I should have sucked it. I should have talked with you. Etc. "

I get a sense that he is trying to scare you here, he thinks he is threatening you to fall in line because he believes you are more scared of divorce and losing him than you are of letting him have sex with other people.

I know its hard, but you need to be strong here. Tell him you are speaking to lawyers (and go make an appointment to make it the truth) even just as a fact-finding mission. Do not agree to anything he says around divorce until you have done so, now is the time to protect you and the kids.

Bigger: haha! Funny! But really, I'm not sure you were understanding my talk about the pool. OR why it matters if I am digging myself or have contractors. I think I was trying to process some loss here...it has nothing to do with money.

I am feeling really shy of being open and perhaps not really able to tolerate what feels like a dig. Anyway, I don't actually think the divorce is a threat on his part. He has no desire to leave.