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You remind me so much of my brother it’s uncanny. Like you he is self made and has done very well but in a field that some would call blue collar. He has rough ways, drives a truck back and forth to work, looks weathered but is in good shape. He married as a teen to another teen and quickly had kids. His wife was so undereducated, she didn’t understand that no and know were not spelled the same. She came from a family of working stiffs. As the years went by and he broke his ass to provide for his family, she stayed on the gravy train. As the kids got older and the housing changed, she got more and more image conscious, but he still was the worker that drove a truck full of pipes and tools. Eventually they moved to a neighborhood that was very upscale. She got a clerical low paying job at a private school where she rubs shoulders with professional people all day, and groomed the kids to think like her.

You know where this is going. She ended up cheating on him. I don’t know the details but I do know he took it very hard. Because he is loyal to a fault he stayed with her. And she has made his life a misery and groomed the now 30 something kids to side with her. She drives a BMW to work and he still drives a truck. He is given hell if he says or does something to piss her off. And she has slept on the couch for six years.

My take for a long time has been that she despises him because he is a worker, a schlub, a grease monkey in her mind. Whereas she is soooo entitled to so much more.

I think that there is a cultural bias against blue collar that permeates our world. Think, when was the last time you saw a movie where the hero was a welder or plumber. But if they need a character that is a buffoon, you can usually find a guy in a delivery man uniform.

I know my brothers wife and I suspect your wife, and maybe your sons have bought into this construct. Your wife has spent years being embarrassed by you cuz ya know, she is a white collar professional and you’re not. You’re so tough (read crude). She’s so effete. When you feel secretly superior to your spouse, it is a short step to despise them. It’s a shorter step to marginalize them and ultimately to see them as a cipher. When your wife talks about comparmentalizing her affair, what she is saying Is that you counted for nothing for the simple reason that you were not a consideration worthy of any thought. She got there by increments and it was easy to cross the line and fall for a guy who fit her picture of success.

If this has been going on for six years it’s unlikely that the A started 2 years ago. The facts don’t work out that way if she has been playing the role you describe for that long. Or it may not be her first rodeo.

What I am getting at is that there is a lot more going on here than her being swept off her feet by a money man. She got there by seeing you as unworthy and that doesn’t go away because she has been busted. If I’m right and this is the real why, then her blame shifting is very clearly based on her perception of you. She’s the prize, you are not worthy of her. So if you change to whatever she sees as acceptable then she gets to keep everything you worked for so it is a win win.

Oh she is,in her email she answered all the points I mentioned in my email except one subject she avoided, which is the OM had at least 3 other affairs.I was looking forward to see what she would think about that but she didn't write a word about it.

Be very careful. She probably still thinks she's "special" and her relationship with AP wasn't like the "other" relationships the AP had.

She has indicated elsewhere how this is difficult to move on. She hasn't.

A-Man

You're getting inundated here, so forgive the pile-on.

I think the saga has played out positively thus far in terms of your management of it.

I said in an earlier post that you should be prepared for the continued monster sales pitch and this indeed appears to be unfolding.

I think you are wise to consider the two month proposal but I strongly urge you to use the time to your maximum advantage. Bear in mind that she will be in uber sales mode with you and probably will agree to any request you make.

So I'd absolutely get something papered with her in the form of a post-nup or whatever, which stipulates that if you D under any circumstances, you can protect what's important to you personally and professionally. You may also, as others suggest, use the time to reorganize your business such that if you are forced into a 50/50 split, you're giving less away (if you choose).

In addition to setting yourself up best for all future contingencies, you will learn a lot about how your relationship truly stands by her reaction. Given all that has happened, if she is sincere in her remorse (not clear), she should lovingly support these steps you take to protect yourself. Call it, if you will, the "half a chance" for which she is begging.

If on the other hand she pushes back or starts to negotiate based upon her own personal agenda, then I think you would have all the information you need to make an informed decision.

Just some thoughts from an old sinner....

Be very careful. She probably still thinks she's "special" and her relationship with AP wasn't like the "other" relationships the AP had.

AHGuy, you should read Walloped's story on this site. His wife's AP was also a married guy with three previous affairs, and she thought they (she and AP) had something special.

Your wife might initiate contact in order to confront him about this, if she wasn't already aware he was just a player.

[This message edited by Sunspot at 10:14 AM, July 30th (Thursday)]

If you are thinking about actually doing the 2month grace period, How about use the 2 month grace period to your benefit?

Have lawyer right up a simple agreement, in exchange for you not filing for divorce in the next 60 days, she will agree to let go of any claim she has on your business in case of divorce? It will be interesting to see what her reaction would be and just how much she is will do for THE CHANCE of saving the marriage.

Wish you luck

[This message edited by Newlifeisgreat at 10:24 AM, July 30th (Thursday)]

Oh she is,in her email she answered all the points I mentioned in my email except one subject she avoided, which is the OM had at least 3 other affairs.I was looking forward to see what she would think about that but she didn't write a word about it.

I agree that it could be fantasy. It could also be that she didn't comment because she already knew and didn't care or maybe she felt like she couldn't say anything because this OM wasn't her first either. There is a sizable gap between when you observed a change in her and when she says the A started. So either it's longer than she's saying or she had other OM before him. It's something worth digging into.

If you plan on putting things on hold, why not try to spend this time getting more of the truth? Ask her if she would take a polygraph test. Ask for full access to her phone, email, social media accounts, and whatever else if you don't have it already. Snoop around some more and see how deep this goes.

AHguy, it's important to hear out people who have a similar experience to what you are going through.

Thumos in particular has parallels:

- He got married to his wife young and she was his one and only

- She conducted a highly disrespectful affair with someone they both knew

+ I would dare say that upon discovery and confrontation, her response was more despicable than the response you got from you wife!

WE're all trying to help you out, but simultaneously, many of us are still fighting our own battles with this type of disgusting mess.

WE, including Thumos are trying to jump to your aid telling you: "DON'T DO WHAT WE DID!! SHE'S GONNA WALK ALL OVER YOU!! TRUST NOTHING!! SHE'S GONNA BREAK YOUR HEART OVER AND OVER AGAIN!! PROTECT YOURSELF!!!"

It's good advice for the most part dude. Don't trust her. Protect yourself, your future, and your livelihood. Find out every last thing you can because she's gonna lie and clothe herself in blameshifting, religion, sex-bombing, and all the usual.

It's so hard for you because she stopped loving you (At least the way you should be loved) a long time ago.

You just got blindsided: Your heart hasn't caught up yet. Your mind is blown. You never had a plan for this!

****

I disagree with some others on this thread who think you have something to work with as far as reconciliation. I don't think you do.

But in the end, as I stated some pages ago. Can you really live with her going forward?

That is your key question.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 11:26 AM, July 30th (Thursday)]

In terms of your daughter's advice to wait two months... look up the word "condonation" in association with your state's divorce laws to find out if that two months will cost you

I'm aware of it and would check again with the lawyer, I'm really not insisting on filing an at-fault based on adultery, I really don't care.

AHGuy

Is anyone besides the lawyer even aware that you could file due to adultery?

At least tell someone in your family or circle that you could but don’t have the heart to.

Then let the word spread.

It would only do good for everyone to know that. Particularly your wife.

[This message edited by Michigan at 1:52 PM, July 30th (Thursday)]

I will only speak to the issue of D and how it may be a positive move towards R.

I will spare my own trauma and details and just tell you that I made D a condition of R to my WW. She wanted R enough that she offered no disagreement and accepted anything I stipulated or condition I set relative to assets, etc. As a man of my word, she knew it was not a risk for her that I would abuse her willingness to let me stipulate all the details. I meant it and we did D.

There are two important points in my story and they may have some benefit to yours:

1. If she had not agreed to my calling the shots, it would have been a clear message to me that the R was destined to fail and her "willingness" to have another chance came with conditions. This I would never have agreed to and I was prepared with my attorney to just move forward aggressively. But she did agree, and this alone was the sole reason I was willing to try R, knowing the pain would not end, when the R began.

2. We did ultimately R and remarry. This may not work for you, but I can't tell you how significant it can be to your good faith efforts to know you are D'd and your WW was willing to give everything up for the opportunity to rebuild. While in D, you and the WS know you can up and leave at any time with very little difficulty.

D has great advantages if you use it to both your own good and potentially the good of a possible R. If you are willing to R, and want to R, but will not stand to be chained to the M while testing if a future is worth it, and if your WW is willing to give everything up, legally, as proof of how much she wants to R, then my story shows D can be a great tool, to keep the door open and to reclaim your story on your terms.

It was my condition and was not negotiable. That my WW was willing and that it did ultimately work out is not to say that it wasn't still a shitfest, because it was. But being a man of honor, I respected the degree to which she turned it all over to me, and that was a significant factor in my trudging through it.

D does not have to be the end. It can be the beginning, if the cheater demonstrated how grateful they are for the chance.

^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^

[This message edited by Michigan at 11:30 AM, July 30th (Thursday)]

Sir,

I don't post much...but I read your story and wow, you are in a rough spot.

Honest answer- It is hard to maintain momentum. Momentum is your only friend here as it will carry you through to the other side.

Time is your enemy. It is not your friend. The longer this goes, the more drama, the more pain, the more money, and the more you will doubt yourself. People are playing you to get you to doubt yourself and your values...this includes your well meaning daughter.

Hart truth- Your daughter needs to be told to step away. She sees her job as saving her family...even if it is at your expense as it is a "greater good". It is not. It is not her job and she is wrong...well meaning but wrong. This requires a stern talk with some sold hard NO built in and if she insists, give her truth about the affair and her mother. Give her sordid details that will forever hurt her perception of her mom. Been there...and she needs to be told not to get in the mud pit if she doesn't want to get muddy. The "keep the kids in the dark" theory is wrong. They need truth because truth cures fear. Give her the ugly version of the truth.

Second, read what Beyond Rage wrote. You are massively behind the power curve and her will has been and is being imposed on you...and you are moving in slow motion. I get you are hurting...but it is time to drop that weight that is holding you down, let go, and burn that world to the ground.

BR's questions are solid- Put them to her in writing. Bluntly...180 hard and hand her the questions in writing. Refuse to engage until they are answered.

I suspect she will refuse and that will be that.

In the meantime, take action to start the D. This will make you feel better as action cures sadness. You can turn it off later...but have her served.

If you sit there for 2 months, you will doubt yourself and lose your resolve...you will suffer longer and harder until D Day 2.0

Keep your momentum. File. Demand answers to the questions.

PS...I kinda think this A might still be ongoing. I get a vibe that you aren't doing any hard core tracking of her devices, email, schedule...and she is still in contact...just FYI.

I will only speak to the issue of D and how it may be a positive move towards R.

DIFM

AHGuy, you have posted several times that most people expected you to file for divorce immediately and were surprised when you didn’t.

Right now, because you didn't file immediately, the baseline moved to do you get a divorce or not.

You need to reset the baseline back to where it was originally. Of course you’re getting a divorce. It fits what everyone expected you to do.

Then the corrected baseline will be do you give her a chance of R after the divorce is final or not.

This has several advantages.

In the first case if you get a divorce you’ll be rejecting the overtures of your wife and daughter. I have a feeling that your wife wouldn’t react very will to that. "Hell hath no fury" comes to mind.

In the second case if you divorce and give R a chance you’ll be listening to your wife and daughter. You didn’t reject them. They were successful in changing your mind.

Your wife will react much better to that because all her efforts made a difference. You had an open mind. You listened to her.

[This message edited by Michigan at 12:49 PM, July 30th (Thursday)]

I will offer one more thought on the D to support R thing. Although there was an empowerment for me in doing it as I did. I was always aware that my fWW had just as much ability and choice to walk away with no strings attached once D'd, as well. I held no power over her to stay, if she wanted to leave. It both served my emotional and empowerment needs, but it did not in any way constrain her from choosing a path other than R if at any point she felt it best for her.

What it did do was make unmistakably clear my position about what I would and would not accept in order to offer a serious and genuine effort to R. My fWW had the power to agree or not, which her choice would have triggered one path or another for me. She gave in to my needs in exchange for my offering her and us a chance to build something new. It worked out.

[This message edited by DIFM at 12:25 PM, July 30th, 2020 (Thursday)]

The behavior and appearance changes dating back 5 or 6 years is a bad sign to me. I think from other things you've said this POSOM entered the picture when he started working with her company a few years ago. I would then think that most likely there is another Affair with a different AP that went on back then.

I'd ask her point blank on this and if you decide on even trying Reconciliation then you need to have a polygraph with this as one of the questions. This sort of change in behavior is a big red flag and you'll see it in stories on this site all of the time.

DIFM,

I find your solution quite elegant and inspiring.

It puts the emphasis on “you destroyed the marriage, now you have to build a new one if you meet my conditions.”.

“You’ve always been free to date other men, but not as my wife. You want to date? Then go, you’re free to go”

I need a plan for sure. I'm thinking about giving her a list of conditions I need established before i can commit to this 2 months grace period, conditions like an initial separation agreement in place...

I don't think this is a bad idea if you can get a legal agreement in place that will stick. My concern on having a viable "at fault" option was in case you need to apply pressure to get an agreement. If you can get it without having to go that far, then yes... I think it'll be good for you to have the extra time.

In regard to sleeping... your doctor can offer you some assistance with that and to be honest, most of us have needed to get a prescription at some point in the process. There are some over the counter options which can help you in the meantime. Melatonin is a hormone we produce naturally which regulates our sleep. The synthetic version you'll find in the vitamin section at the drug store works the same way. There are all sorts of formulations, from pills to chewables to drink powders, and they do work fairly well. There are also teas made up of herbal mixtures which can promote relaxation. You'll find those in the coffee/tea aisle. Chamomile is, of course, my favorite.

My biggest problem with sleep wasn't getting there, it was staying there. Any time my sleeping brain went anywhere near the trauma, I would bounce back up wide awake. I think I was subconsciously afraid of nightmares, so my sleeping brain would wake me before I could dream. REM sleep is what helps our brains to process information though, so you might imagine how this increased the difficulty level. Anyway, getting yourself into a nicely relaxed state an hour or so before bed will also help. Try also to move your mind onto more solvable problems when it gets overactive while you're falling asleep. One really good exercise is "making a salad" in your imagination, choosing the ingredients, how you'll chop them, etc. You're giving your brain a less stressful task, and hopefully, one which is boring enough you can fall asleep while doing it.

Not many people have commented about this, but it really rang alarm bells for me:

let me put things in perspective. the complaining didn't start till the last 5 or 6 years but it came with a sudden change in her behavior a complete 180 of her character. I took it as midlife crisis we all did including her sisters and friends, before that our life was normal,our marriage was very good or at least that's what I thought, we were both working long hours not just me, she suddenly wanted to go out with her friends and go to movies and ball games, she suddenly changed her life style and to her I was an old school. yes she wasn't happy and complained that's true, I wasn't happy either but I never complain...she started by life style changes, then resenting me then ignoring me then replacing me.

There are hundreds of threads in SI where a wife suddenly making drastic changes like that and becoming annoyed with their husband, or abusive to him, is a sign that the wife has started seeing another man.

The sudden need for a regular 'girls' night out', "I'm going to the movies with a friend", etc, can all cover other reasons for being away from home and out of sight of the husband.

In my opinion, your wife's 'questionable' behaviour did not start with her recent/current affair, but six years ago, when she started to find reasons to go places without you.

When a man or woman starts inventing reasons to be away from their spouse, and rejecting them, there is hardly ever a good or decent reason for it. It is almost always a sign that something else is going on.

At the time you took it as a mid-life crisis, but there may be more to it than that.

It seems like your wife pegs big changes to the kids leaving home. When your daughter left home, your wife suddenly changed, needed to be away from home more, and rejected you.

She told her recent/current AP that she would leave you when your youngest child left home. She now claims all of that was a fantasy, but it is still what she said when she thought no-one was listening.

It also strikes me that if your wife says all of the things she told her AP were lies, and she was also lying to you, the kids, and the rest of her family at the same time, she is clearly a very manipulative person who you should be very wary of.

What she has inadvertently admitted is that for the two years of her affair, she was lying to everyone, including her AP, because it got her what she wanted.

I am also not convinced about her reasons for wanting to stay in the marriage. She spent six years rejecting you and treating the marriage like a jail sentence, culminating in a two year affair, but now that the affair is out in the open, she is suddenly hugely enthusiastic to be in the marriage, being your good, wholesome, church-going little wife?

Really? If that is what she truly wants in life, what were the last six years all about?

In my opinion - which you are free to disregard - your wife is a manipulator who believed she was cleverer than she is. As a result she outsmarted herself, her dishonesty has been exposed, and the only way she can save herself socially now is if you remain with her.

If you divorce her, it leaves the way wide open for the AP to pursue her, but she knows she can never have a life with him because nobody in your family or hers would ever want anything to do with him. She would have to abandon everyone and everything to be with a man that she now knows had multiple affairs, and would undoubtedly cheat on her.

So out of the few options that she has...

(1) Start a complete new life with her AP, cut off from her family, and living as a 'scarlet woman'.

(2) Life as a single divorcee with a track record of cheating.

(3) Remaining married, with her family and established support network around her.

...the best one for her is to stay in a marriage she has rejected for six years, with a man she has lied to and betrayed...because suddenly she has 'seen the light', she wants to 'share her femininity with you', and Jesus is back at the steering wheel after a six year coffee break. Or did she just temporarily run out of 'fun bullets' to shoot at you now that you and her family are all watching her at the firing range?

Wow. The smell of Unicorn farts is making me giddy. If she was Pinocchio, her nose would be eight feet long.

After everything she has done over the past six years, if she suddenly starts being nice to you, are you going to believe it is how she really feels, or simply manipulation to prevent her world from collapsing in on itself?

[This message edited by M1965 at 6:06 PM, July 30th (Thursday)]

M1965's post is very pragmatic and I have to agree with it.

AHGuy - I have not read most of the posts in this thread (there are a lot), but I recently posted in the divorce/separation a thread about why you should consider getting counsel (or at least meeting with one) even if you are not sure if you are going to file.

Edited to add: if you are considering a post-nup then I absolutely 10000% recommend counsel to assist you as the rules of what can and cannot be contracted to post-marriage really vary from place to place and can be very complicated.

I am not sure if I am able to link to that post (as I've never linked to one before) but the URL if you can't find it is here:

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=647869

I urge you to read that not because I am pushing for you to separate or divorce as honestly I don't know enough of your story to comment, but you might find that information helpful. I am a lawyer by trade, but not a family lawyer, so that post is just my personal opinion. In it I try to explain the reasons why counsel may be helpful, and why a legal "separation" if available to you, may be something to consider. If you have no kids and no assets then I don't think counsel is very necessary - but if you have either, or both, then you may want to scope out your options now and have a free/low-cost consult with someone so you can understand the process and liabilities etc.

Honestly, I think knowledge is power, and it may help you feel a little more in control of what is going on in your life, and when infidelity is in play, any semblance of control is fantastic.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 4:46 PM, July 30th (Thursday)]

If her night outs and partying had started 5 to 6 years ago it is possible that she had fishing then. 40 year old women out partying do get hit upon a lot. The one with boundaries shut you down while others can be encouraging. It is possible that she was flirting with strangers and thus showing resentment in real life. Once you start on the path of flirting and friendship then your boundaries are down. Players like OM are quick to pick up those signals so while physically she may have started only 2 years back, she had already started that path 5 years ago. She has been effectively half a decade into a non relationship with you.