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Do you think that you are hesitant to set boundaries around the blame shifting and the equalizing and deflecting because you are worried she will leave the marriage if you do?

ETA: What is the worst outcome that could happen if you simply refused to be dragged into arguments and insisted on real, mutual recovery from the infidelity before working on the other marital issues?

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 9:34 AM, Thursday, June 4th]

Oldwounds

In your counseling session, you mentioned things that your wife can check off a list — that’s not how safe works.

Yes I understand this. It's why I've been so hesitant to create a list for her. If I do that, and she "checks" items off the list, it will just be performative, and I'm sure I won't feel like she is changing her core.

She is right, she doesn’t have to own anything, but if there is no empathy for the pain she caused you, again, I can see that turning into resentment from you at some point.

I would not describe it as no empathy. I think it's more accurate to say that she is heavily damaged by her own choices, which causes her to super defend herself, and I'm hearing from everyone here that I'm partially enabling that behavior by not having firmer boundaries.

GotTheMorbs

Do you think that you are hesitant to set boundaries around the blame shifting and the equalizing and deflecting because you are worried she will leave the marriage if you do?

I guess it depends on what you mean by boundary. I have made it very clear that I will not accept blame shifting and that I view her continuing to bring her resentments from the past as blame shifting. This often the point of contention for us. She once again brings it up, and I once again push back. She keeps framing it in a "we are working on our relationship, and you have to put in effort as well" way. She doesn't see it as something she has to work on. She sees it as something I'm being stubborn about. And to be fair, after 2 years of this I have grown pretty stubborn about it. The first 6 months I was much more patient with it than I am now. Which I think caused her to feel like it was something she could continue bringing up, and that eventually I would relent. I feel like I shot myself in the foot there.

ETA: What is the worst outcome that could happen if you simply refused to be dragged into arguments and insisted on real, mutual recovery from the infidelity before working on the other marital issues?

If I insist on real mutual recovery she will come back with "then I need these issues addressed!", and "I need to feel that we are on equal ground in our relationship!". It basically walks right into her blaming me some more and me getting defensive for being blamed. Who could argue with "we need to be on equal ground in our relationship"?

I could work on pausing the conversation when she gets like this, but in the past when I do this, she gets very angry, accuses me of not listening to her, and implies our relationship is not equal again. Though to be fair I wasn't very good at this the last time I tried it, so I probably triggered her by doing it. Maybe I just need to level up my skills in this area.

At this moment in time, your answer seems to be that she is not willing or able to do what you asking of her.

Theevent, I encourage every BS hopeful for R to get as comfortable as possible with D. Reconciliation is never a foregone conclusion. It can fail. Until you're emotionally, mentally, spiritually and everythingelsely prepared to end your marriage, trying to reconcile alonr stops being a prison of your own creation and becomes an option... Let go of the outcome.

I think your smartest course of action is to get yourself to a place where separation looks good to you.

My vote would be detachment

I'm writing to say that you need to consider that you may be co-dependent, that your desire for R is unhealthy... The 180 may be just what you need.

I think you’re on the edge of understanding that your future will be full of resentment if you don’t see some changes that make you feel safe.

I agree MC is a waste of money right now.

I hear you all. I'm going to spend some time thinking about it. Considering my options, even if it's only changing my perspective to let go of the outcome.

hikingout

Her resentments are her responsibility.

Until she can take accountability for her creation of these resentments, and stop lobbing them at you, the vulnerability she needs to have in order to build that connection bridge is not there. And in the case of infidelity it has to be her to do it and you to decide whether you will meet her on.it.

...she needs to find her way in that fight that is productive and moving in the direction towards you rather than against you.

A lot of wisdom here, and I appreciate the perspective you bring to the table.

I had an exit affair, it wasn’t like at the time that’s what I would have called it.

I suspect it was the same for her. She says she never wanted to leave, or to destroy our relationship, but it's so hard to know what the real truth is in these situations. It's possible that when the reality of the situation dawned on her, that she was not willing to pull the trigger. I just don't know. It eats at me.

A gratitude practice was very key for me here. Instead of her looking at all the bad, she needs to focus on what she appreciates about you and your union and why she wants to fight for it. She doesn’t need to be reinforcing why she lost sight of the fight.

I think she is actually doing this. When we are not fighting, she has made it a point to recognize my efforts and thank me for them frequently. Thats a good sign. When we fight it's like a whole different person comes out. Crazy.

I don’t mean it as a punishment nor do I think you are looking to dole one out.

I appreciate you acknowledging this. I really don't want to punish her. Only to feel safe again.

I meqn it in the way of by detaching and focusing on yourself and your boundaries, you will feel like you are reinventing your self respect and protecting your energy a bit better.

I will try to wrap my mind around this. Do you have any examples you could use to illustrate how this plays out in the real world?

Theevent —

I would not describe it as no empathy. I think it's more accurate to say that she is heavily damaged by her own choices, which causes her to super defend herself, and I'm hearing from everyone here that I'm partially enabling that behavior by not having firmer boundaries.

She is choosing her comfort over yours — she could definitely use MORE empathy than she has shown.

As for boundaries, at this point, I think you need to share what you have to have to move forward.

You can even start the conversation with, "We’re both still here, it seems we want to be around each other — what would it take for her to let down those walls?"

In any M, people have to look out for the other, what will she do to SHOW she is looking out for you, other than promising not to do it again (a promise that failed before)?

I think you mentioned an MC asked if she wanted the M or to be married. Did she answer that?

I do think my own R improved when I knew I would be fine with or without my M (the letting the outcome go).

Clearly, you want the M. But not as lopsided as it is now.

That day you know you’ll be good solo or M, you will be able to outline your boundaries/needs much better.

How does letting go of the outcome play out in the real world?

Let's be quite clear and honest about a simple truth: not all BSs are saints. I could have been a much better spouse. I own that shit. I know damned well my exww was a better spouse than I was until she wasn't. Within a few weeks of d-day, I made that admission to her. I owned my part in our marital disharmony. I was willing to address the issues my behavior and tendencies caused in our pre-A marriage.

However!!! Before that ever happened. I had to believe, to know, to trust the she could own and fix her shit as well. Because infidelity is a fucking deal-breaker. Marital issues were of no concern to me. Her infidelity is all that mattered. There was no balance anymore in our relationship because she unbalanced the holy crap out of it.

Affair repair was going to happen before I ever considered repairing a fractured marriage that she annihilated.

In the meantime, I was going to try and live my best life, with or without her. Reconciliation would be great and that was my hope. But I had to get comfortable with the very real possibility that R would fail. That meant that I had to get comfortable with the very real possibility that divorce might be the way forward for me (six years later it was).

Letting go of the outcome allowed me to focus on me and my healing. It allowed me to address my own issues. Detaching allowed me to stop tying my own happiness and well-being to the possibility that reconciliation might be successful. It allowed me to know that I could feel my own safety.

It's not punishment. It's not revenge. It's you being OK on your own.

You don't have to give up on R. You simply need to accept that at some point you can walk away and be OK with it.

How your wife reacts is entirely up to her. She can get all butthurt and cry about how unfair it is to know you're good with either R or D - or, she can do her best to keep up with you, focus on herself, own and fix her shit, and live her best life as well.

It sets you free, brother.

Oldwounds

In any M, people have to look out for the other, what will she do to SHOW she is looking out for you, other than promising not to do it again (a promise that failed before)?

She has said that she:
- Distances herself from anyone she feels a connection with
- She has been honest and transparent
- She is going to individual therapy
- She is attending church on a regular basis and studying the bible.
- She goes out of her way to notice and thank me for doing things
- She does the little things to help me feel loved.
- If it's clear I'm having a hard time with a show we are watching because it has infidelity in it, she tries to comfort me, and apologizes.
- She has deliberately made time to spend time with me, and continues reaching out and keeping that attachment alive.
- She is fun to be around.
- Says she loves me often.
- Brags about me to others she works with.
- Writes me cute little notes.
etc.

Like I said it's such an odd place to be. She really is doing a lot, and also when she gets triggered she morphs into someone who defends herself by lashing out with blame and criticism. She does mental jujitsu to counter any argument I have or switch the topic to one she thinks will be more effective, and she stubbornly holds to all the ideas I have outlines in this thread. In the end it's always me who did something wrong. It's like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Extremely confusing.

I think you mentioned an MC asked if she wanted the M or to be married. Did she answer that?

Yes. This was in a session only like 6-8 weeks after D-day. She took a minute to think about it and grudgingly said yes. Attitudes like these early on are one of the reasons I suspect her affair was actually an exit affair and she was deciding if she wanted to just bail, or try to reconcile. Bailing meant we would get divorced because of her cheating, which everyone would have known about. So even though I think she does love me and wants to reconcile, the large amount of resistance she has shown, and logic like this really eat away at me.

Unhinged
I'm curious how these 6 years wen't for you. Can you give me a brief year by year breakdown, and at what point, and why, you eventually decided you were done?