SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Your story reminds me of the thief on the cross. Saved at the last. How many waywards can take the lessons from your story and understand there isn’t forever but there can be forgiveness

I’m still moved everytime I read your words. It does mean a lot to me that others have benefitted from all these exchanges over the years.

I heard it once said that the one thief on the cross showed that forgiveness is possible, right till the end. The other one showed that it should never be assumed.

Since this is title "philosophical" I'll join in the thread on a couple of topics.

1) Affordable Mistakes. This is an interesting turn of phrase, and I guess it comes from a parenting book (ha!). That said, I do think there is *something* to this. None of us are perfect and we all wish we could behave in a way completely aligned with our hypothetical perfect version of ourselves. We have breakdowns of willpower and discipline. As it relates to infidelity, I think an affordable mistake is more like failing to keep a solid transference of vigilance. Perhaps doing something that looks untoward, but isn't. Realizing it, apologizing, and trying to do better in the future. I do not think we can expect anyone to be perfect, but I do think expecting devotion in intent is reasonable. A breakdown of intending devotion is not an affordable mistake. I could probably try to make a list of affordable and not affordable mistakes but I think something like:

Going to get coffee or lunch with an opposite sex friend or coworker without telling you about it. That doesn't have to be cheating at all, but it could look wrong and sort of break your boundaries. Heck, maybe you meant to go as a group but it ended up only being the two of you. They might not even realize it was a problem because there really was no intent, spark, or attraction.

A not affordable mistake would be:

Flirting openly with another person.

2) I'm not so religious myself, but Thumos was a big fan of a particular verse, Proverbs 30:20 (I prefer HCSB for accuracy of modern translation to original meaning)

This is the way of an adulteress:
she eats and wipes her mouth
and says, "I’ve done nothing wrong."

Seems to fit in your case, unfortunately.

Hope you had a good father's day.

But I made it clear in that that what she had done as my final straw (the mechanic asshat) could never happen again, and she dug her heals in. She claimed the right to make "affordable mistakes". I just walked away from her.
Well, turns out she had actually been in contact with asshat mechanic this whole time, all the while saying she still hoped to R and asking a mutual friend to advocate on her behalf with me. For some reason my wife confided this in the friend, and the friend (being compulsively honest) insisted my wife tell me. Wife argued, blustered, all that bullshit we all know and love, and then cut off this friend when she held her ground. So my wife told me about this, referred to it as being "more familiar than I would want to as a married woman".

An affordable mistake...She thought that staying in contact with the sleeze ball mechanic who was the last straw for you was an affordable mistake... And cut her friend off because said friend was pointing out what a bad idea the contact was... She has the mindset and values of a two-year-old. I'm glad your kids are old enough to be mostly self-sufficient because your STBX really is a train wreck.

I think your STBX did you a huge favor carrying on with the mechanic. While you path has been setup before you, there were still trees and bushes that could have had scary monsters hiding behind them, now she has removed those bushes and trees exposing all.

Just refer to me as the TEMU Mr. Rogers I guess.

You’ll find love again. Probably a lot quicker and easier than you anticipate.

A not affordable mistake would be:

Flirting openly with another person.

especially if that other person is the one that was the last straw leading to your divorce.

Thanks for the update Ink. I’ve been wondering how you’ve been managing.

I hear around here that shame is only destructive, but I don’t think that is true. I think shame has a useful affect, it helps us to learn and not repeat. In the book "The Shame That Binds Us", (thanks, WOES!) the author talks about a necessary healthy shame that is inherent in acceptance of living as a finite person, and then a second kind of shame, a toxic shame.

Agree with this. Obviously having zero shame is not an admirable or desirable goal. Obviously there is a place for normal, healthy shame. I do think that maybe there is some conflation of guilt vs. shame that’s going on though when you compare it to not having a conscience. Guilt and shame are separate but related/integrated concepts. Guilt tends to focus on the behaviour ("I did a bad thing") vs. the person, whereas shame tends to be more self-focused ("I’m a bad person"). What becomes problematic is when shame is so powerful or overwhelming that it becomes toxic and the person is unable to focus on anything other than the shame (or protecting themselves emotionally from the shame via defensiveness, denial, etc…)at the expense of the guilt that might motivate them to actually alter their behaviour and empathy for those impacted by the behaviour.

As someone who has been long-interested in figuring out/decoding the future ex-Mrs. Hulk’s character profile, I’m both intrigued and completely baffled by "affordable mistakes". She remains an enigma to me – and perhaps always will. Regardless of whether we’re talking about shame or guilt, I think it’s pretty clear that she’s not doing a lot of self-reflection. From the cheap seats it sounds like she’s picking and choosing whatever she can from therapy/self-help to continue to justify her actions. I don’t think therapy itself is to blame here (though it certainly is the current weapon of choice), it sounds as though it is definitely the vessel here who is twisting it to their own ends. No amount of therapy is going to change someone who is not open to and motivated to change. If she is intent on maintaining her victimhood, she will find a way to do so. I have long suspected there are some cluster B traits at work here (covert narc?) but if you’re not going to spin your wheels on analyzing her (probably a good choice btw), I’ll do my best not to either. In any event, the fact that she thinks she (or your marriage) can afford any mistakes right now is telling. You deserve so much better.

The truly informative part to me is it didn’t hurt me at all. No trigger, no emotional funk. It felt like vindication, like my mental model of her is now accurate because I predicted this, which is why I initiated divorce. My heart is truly dead to her.

This, on the other hand, makes perfect sense to me. You’ve detached. I think one of your fears/hesitancies has been around ‘making the wrong choice’ and giving up on something that you think could have been salvaged and with this she’s just proving to you again that she is not the person you need her to be and has absolutely no intention of attempting to become that person. YOUR therapy and work is evident. Keep on keeping on.

Happy father’s day.

InkHulk,

I hear around here that shame is only destructive, but I don’t think that is true. I think shame has a useful affect, it helps us to learn and not repeat. In the book "The Shame That Binds Us", (thanks, WOES!) the author talks about a necessary healthy shame that is inherent in acceptance of living as a finite person, and then a second kind of shame, a toxic shame. Clearly once we get into the toxic side we have problems, but to have no shame at all is not a compliment. It’s like having no conscience. It’s like a moral leprosy, loss of a necessary sensitivity to keep us safe and healthy.

This 200%! In our postmodern, hyper-morally relative culture, shame gets such a bad rap... when in reality, the emotion is an essential survival mechanism. Even those who are not religious must acknowledge that humans are social creatures; therefore, behaviors that threaten threaten essential bonds, cause chaos, and weaken the social fabric should be considered taboo and ostracized.

BSs will often attribute their WS's continued lies and obfuscation to shame because we're imagining how we would feel if we were caught cheating... and project that emotion on to our WS. But more often than not, the use of "shame" is just an excuse for a WS to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions.

2)I perceive that therapy worships at the idol of self esteem so strongly that shit like this can emerge. If she says such and such makes her feel better and aligns with "her truth", therapists don’t stand up to that bullshit and instead affirm it. I am largely suspicious of the profession at this point.

I agree with this as well, which is why I'm always skeptical when a BS seems to perceive IC as a magic bullet that is going to solve all their WS problems and save the marriage. IC is not a surgical "character transplant" procedure. A good therapist may help some WSs get to the root of maladaptive behaviors and sort themselves out, but more often than not, a WS will just use the IC as a sounding board and a source of affirmation. There's simply more money to be made in telling someone what they want to hear and soothing them than challenging them to confront uncomfortable truths about themselves.

ChampionshipRugsweeper,

I have read every one of your posts and I have to say as a WW I have taken so much of value out of your story. It was the swift kick in the ass I needed to understand there is a time limit on when I can still fix things with my BH. Maybe it’s a long time, maybe a little but it did kick me into high gear of figuring it out.

If there's anything else you should take away from InkHulk's saga, it's not your BS's anger and grief that should frighten or distress you; it's his indifference. If your BS still tries to argue with you, ask you the same questions over and over, and talk about the affair, it's because he's still emotionally invested in the relationship and cares enough to engage with you. The minute that he shrugs his shoulders and throws his hands up is when you know your marriage is over. And as you wisely pointed out, you don't know when that breaking point will come. It could be years from now or it could be tonight.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 7:48 PM, Monday, June 17th]

One thing I have never forgotten is ChamomileTea talking about how her husband’s character was (maybe still is?) flexible, infirm. I’ve always thought that was a great insight. And I still wonder how do you ever screen for something like that?

After everything that's happened, I'm not sure that's something we can screen for. My fWH (like everyone else's cheater probably) claimed all the nice character assets we'd want in a partner. Fidelity?.. check. Honesty?.. check. Hell, I would have defined him as Loyal above all other things. They don't just fool us. It sounds so convincing because they actually believe it themselves. That is, until it's tested and it fails.

After that failure, some WS's are able to dig deep and take REAL responsibility and then remediate the flaws in their character. They're the ones who question WHY they were able to cross a line that they believed they'd never cross, the ones who truly want to find out how they were able to say 'yes' to cheating. And they don't stop until they have those answers and until they've thoroughly reprioritized their values.

Going forward, I do think it will help you to have some deep and meaningful conversations with any potential partners, but truly, I just don't think there's any kind of magic we can count on to assure ourselves.

If your BS still tries to argue with you, ask you the same questions over and over, and talk about the affair, it's because he's still emotionally invested in the relationship and cares enough to engage with you. The minute that he shrugs his shoulders and throws his hands up is when you know your marriage is over.

This is fully true. I think my wife had some kind of idea that she would leave me alone in the throes of my anguish, wait for me to come out of it, and then deal with me then. It was a perverse take on "BS heals BS, WS heals WS". Because while it’s true that she could never magically heal me, I should have been able to expect a kind nurse.

Going forward, I do think it will help you to have some deep and meaningful conversations with any potential partners, but truly, I just don't think there's any kind of magic we can count on to assure ourselves.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I admit I skipped this step with my wife. At the time I was just really excited to have a woman interested in me, and somehow I failed to notice that while I told her everything about me, and we really enjoyed kissing each other, she never reciprocated the emotional depth. I will not make that mistake again. And I hear you saying that even that will not be a guarantee, and that is ok. I’ve got myself and my God, I can take that risk.

1) Affordable Mistakes. This is an interesting turn of phrase, and I guess it comes from a parenting book (ha!). That said, I do think there is *something* to this. None of us are perfect and we all wish we could behave in a way completely aligned with our hypothetical perfect version of ourselves. We have breakdowns of willpower and discipline.

I do agree. While I still fully align with StraightUp’s take on the current situation, I think this parenting concept can reasonably be applied to relationships in general. The affordability of a mistake in a relationship will be relative to the health and magnitude of that relationship. And we could still expect consequences to come in response to an "affordable mistake", it would just imply that it’s not a complete break in relationship. In this particular case my wife was off both in her assessment that the offense was in fact affordable given where we were AND I know she meant that she expected there to be no consequences, even minor ones. I will never understand her, and I’m ok with that.

Thanks for the Proverb. I recognize it, but hadn’t thought of it in a while. Very apropos.

I do think that maybe there is some conflation of guilt vs. shame that’s going on though when you compare it to not having a conscience. Guilt and shame are separate but related/integrated concepts. Guilt tends to focus on the behaviour ("I did a bad thing") vs. the person, whereas shame tends to be more self-focused ("I’m a bad person").

I admit that I haven’t developed a solid intuitive feel for this distinction, and how they interplay with what we call the conscience. All of them should be in play as we do things that violate our standards. I guess it’s an area to grow in.

Sorry that my wife will be left as an enigma to you, but…

Again reaching back into the archives, after you were done calling me a newbie, you asked a question in the Cheaters Handbook thread that was devastating in it’s simplicity: if I made all these excuses for her, how could I ever accept her as an equal? I saw that, I knew I couldn’t answer it, and I dodged it. But it hung in my subconscious, occasionally coming to the surface. And ultimately the answer is the one that the question begged: I can’t. I didn’t need her to be my intellectual equal or my financial equal. But I did need her to be my moral equal, my spiritual equal. I needed that, and I didn’t get it. Just excuses. And that was not enough. Question answered.

Not really disappointment - I think more confusion. To be clear, I have certainly been disappointed in her actions/reactions in the past - mostly because I know you hoped so desperately for her to get her shit together in order to save your family, as I watched you twist yourself into knots trying to defend her (indefensible) honour.

Again reaching back into the archives, after you were done calling me a newbie, you asked a question in the Cheaters Handbook thread that was devastating in it’s simplicity: if I made all these excuses for her, how could I ever accept her as an equal? I saw that, I knew I couldn’t answer it, and I dodged it. But it hung in my subconscious, occasionally coming to the surface. And ultimately the answer is the one that the question begged: I can’t. I didn’t need her to be my intellectual equal or my financial equal. But I did need her to be my moral equal, my spiritual equal. I needed that, and I didn’t get it. Just excuses. And that was not enough. Question answered.

This broke my heart a little while also making it swell with pride. You really have come a very long way, my friend. You DO deserve a real partner - not necessarily an "equal" but certainly someone you can respect (and who respects you). At the end of the day, I think that respect may actually be more important/crucial to a marriage than love is. And yes, you absolutely deserve both.

InkHulk post #37:

This is some pretty incredible insight right here. I think you are entirely right.

Hey man could you pass on these words to the Admins here? That I am entirely right...that is just something I NEVER hear from the SI Moderation Team

I have wondered what was really going on in your STBX-WW's IC sessions, and from what you've posted on here I have strongly suspected that your STBX-WW wasn't being held accountable for anything by her IC. You mentioned once that IC and STBX-WW seemed to be more like besties than therapist-patient. Maybe your STBX-WW was misleading her IC all this time, maybe her IC only ever cared about STBX-WW's happiness in the moment (you know, 'her truth' and all that nonsense) and she didn't care about STBX-WW growing in integrity and being held accountable for the pain she caused you and your family. Maybe it was both (which is my guess).

Still man, I admire how well you've handled everything. Your kids are lucky to have you.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 2:41 AM, Tuesday, June 18th]

Hey man could you pass on these words to the Admins here? That I am entirely right...that is just something I NEVER hear from the SI Moderation Team

You know, I never actually hear from the Mods, so maybe you could just try that?

Edit to add: also, aren’t you glad that I talked you out of ghosting me like five times in the last two years?

[This message edited by InkHulk at 2:28 PM, Tuesday, June 18th]

In one way being a member of staff here reminds me of being in the police: The ones that stay within the guidelines won’t be much aware of us members of staff, those that bend the guidelines might notice a gentle warning, but those that go too far... well... they are clearly made aware of our presence!

InkHulk

Regarding shame. I don’t really see many on this site say it’s a negative emotion.

What I do see repeated very often (and since I do so too then I agree with it) is that our partners decision to cheat is a decision, and that the decision is of no fault of ours. They might use all sorts of excuses related to us – we weren’t attentive, no romance, spent too much time at work, didn’t help with the housework... whatever – but these are all justifications, and mainly retrospective justifications. It’s normal and probably expected that we feel embarrassment and even possibly shame for our wayward spouse’s decision to cheat, but we should not overemphasize our "blame" nor let that "shame" hold back on some commonly accepted correct reactions to end the infidelity.

Yes – it might be true that we did spend too much time playing golf, or didn’t help with the housework, or spent money stupidly... all issues that could have negative impact on the relationship and all issues we should have some guilt/shame for, but none that explain or justify the decision of the spouse to counter your lowering golf-handicap with the attention of OM...

I think it’s always good to evaluate why we feel shame. Like if I got really pissed-out drunk, hit on my best friends wife and urinated all over his couch while dancing a strip-dance in front of our group of friends... I SHOULD feel shame. It then becomes an issue of how I deal with that shame.

I could just hide under a rock for half a year, find a new friend and if asked just laugh about it and claim I had the flu and that booze didn’t really work with my medication... minimizing the event and diverting the blame to something not really within my control.

Or...

I could knock at my friends front door apologizing to him and his wife, offering to clean the couch or replace it, apologize to everyone that witnessed my behavior and really reevaluate how, why and when I partake in the devil-water. My shame and embarrassment would make me NOT want to repeat and would hopefully strengthen my resolve to not do that again.

Shame can be good... It let’s you know how your moral barometer is calibrated.

The negatives I most often see with shame on this site is where the betrayed spouse has a feeling of shame and embarrassment about their spouses affair. This tends to keep them from doing the things our collective experience indicates work. Mainly exposing to stakeholders about the affair. Its like we think our spouses decision to have an affair indicates a deficiency in the marriage and therefore us – causing shame and embarrassment. I think it’s important that we refuse to accept that shame, because it’s not warranted or due to any fault of ours. There are no amend we can make for our spouses decision to have an affair.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 2:10 PM, Tuesday, June 18th]

Like if I got really pissed-out drunk, hit on my best friends wife and urinated all over his couch while dancing a strip-dance in front of our group of friends

You always have the most colorful illustrations.

Shame can be good... It let’s you know how your moral barometer is calibrated.

Fully agree.

The negatives I most often see with shame on this site is where the betrayed spouse has a feeling of shame and embarrassment about their spouses affair.

I still think waywards have extremely complicated relationships with shame, and that was more the angle I was coming from, but I agree that the betrayed have to recon with shame as well and it’s complicated.

This tends to keep them from doing the things our collective experience indicates work.

Oh, that invaluable collective experience. I took a risk two years ago. I started a JFO thread in one of the worst days of my life, dared to tell what happened to me and what was happening in me. I got some good advice, I some straight up wisdom from this0is0fine, and then I was quiet for a while. My wife hated this place, and I was looking around for counselors and pastors and websites that could help me. But there was just something here that kept drawing me back. And it was that collective experience, but even more than that because others have experienced this shit. But the wisdom here was unique in the judgment of my mind and heart. Victim blaming was spotted a mile away and crushed immediately. Forgiveness wasn’t demanded. I could go on. You all have given me so much, and I’ve taken as much as I could, and I’ve left some behind. Bigger, you honestly left a strong impression in the discussions about "what is marriage". You helped me see that what I really want is a beautiful relationship, and that I need to be more thoughtful about how I weave the boilerplate contract of marriage into that, if I do at all. You all shared your wisdom with me and the risk that I took two years ago in coming here and baring my soul has paid off in spades.

My feelings about shame have evolved as I have thought a lot about it over the years.

I tend to think you have to put it into context in one’s own life, but here is how I view it.

Shame is painful. It’s a good precipitator for change. Fear is useful too, it can save you from hurting yourself. But fear and/or shame as a lens to look through dictates thoughts and actions and it hinders one’s ability to see the right path they should take.

Shame os accumulating if you never work though it. Mine started as an abused child who truly believed myself to be damaged goods, dirty, bad. It sexualized me at a young age, and when you experience emotional neglect from your parents on top of that, then you start getting attention from people leading with your sexuality.

This lens led me to do things that only compounded my shame. So then I became avoidant, my self worth was skewed, and I being vulnerable became harder and harder as this accumulated.

So when I talk about shame it’s never just about the affair. I will always be ashamed I had one and I think that is healthy. But when I say as a ws I had to work through my shame, it was an unlayering of what I believed about myself to the core. Stripping those layers require courage and dedication.

So fresh off of dday, it wasn’t necessarily shame of just the affair holding me back, it was shame of who I am that I had carried through my entire life and had reinforced through acting out of that place as well as now seeing how far down I had gone.

So, when I say shame I am not just talking about having an affair. I am talking about a lens that my entire being was built on. That’s when it’s unhealthy because it guides your thoughts and behaviors to ne super reactive rather than being proactive and managing things that you need to cope with. It makes it painful to look at yourself because you hate who you are. And this was me far before ever having an affair. I looked at myself and the world very critically

And this shows up in so many ways. I no longer talk badly about people I know, I will be compassionate when they falter, I can be trusted with secrets because I do not need the attention someone gives me with gossiping. I think positively more than not and am more patient and understanding in general. I have learned not to take things personally. Why? Because I am doing these things also for me. And our relationship with ourself dictates our relationship with others. I also hold them accountable for hurting me, lying to me, or not considering me. Those are things I was incapable of before because I didn’t think I deserved those things. Or I just have done something wrong for them to act this way. But now that I abide by certain things I find I expect them in return.

I think a lot of ws experience this. But some do not. A very current case we have seen in the wayward side is a good example of a ws not really held back by shame, but in selfishness. Your standards for yourself and vision for who you want to be have to be high enough that you feel you have done something morally wrong. Some people simply do not have that instinct.

But I have always said overly selfless people and overly selfish people have the same problem: it’s all trying to fill a void. Overly selfless people get love by overdoing and over compliance. Overly selfish people get love by being demanding and monitoring all the ways you could show them.

So, to tie a bow around my usual ramblings and meanderings- this to me probably is a rough guide. I think the overly selfless ws end up being the ones that have that accumulated shame. I think the overly selfish have less issue with shame and more issue with being demanding about what they want. There is surely a gradient of this, and exceptions, but this is kind of the pattern I have noticed in what I have seen here.

Takers just don’t seem to have the same barrier, though they suffer from a lot of the same root causes. But, sometimes I think if you don’t have a healthy amount of shame over what you have done then that’s when some will become a serial cheater.

How do you know when it’s your spouse? I don’t know. I will say that my husband isn’t one to carry shame, and I do think he is has been more selfish than me over the course of our marriage but I don’t really see him out of balance in those two things. Maybe he is more of a gradient in that way, but I don’t think if I hadnt cheated that he would have ever done it so that’s the best I can tell you.

Shame when you have an abundance of it is not crippling unless it already existed and accumulated, and I think you will find a lot of those we are the ones you find that they are at rock bottom. They know something has to change because the pain they are in feels unsurmountable.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:19 PM, Tuesday, June 18th]

I feel like I would be a freshman arguing with the professor to even try to engage with you on this topic, I’d just fumble around.
I’m so sorry for what was done to you to start that accumulation. I had a conversation with my stepmother last year as part of a quest to understand my father better. I asked her where his demons came from. She said no one knows, some have speculated he was SA’d as a boy, but with no evidence of that it’s just stretching to try to explain a promising life that was thrown away.
This paradox (I seem to remember Owl talking us thru it last year) was a well of pity for me. To know of these experiences she had, and even that her mother had, it’s so hard to pronounce judgment. That the categories of good vs bad people just isn’t helpful. I think she is dangerous and destructive and for entirely practical reasons I must get clear of her. The rest I leave in God’s hands. I’ll say that it is wildly encouraging to me to hear your first hand experience of undoing the effects of toxic shame. My experiences would make it easy to assume it can’t be done.

Does anyone have insight into how/why we feel shame both for what we do (Bigger pissing on the couch) and what is done to us (things like SA of a child)? It seems like a curiosity to me that we feel this same emotion for such different things, and then it creates these impossibly complex cascades.