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Robin, spouses absolutely owe sex to each other. And love. If you’re not willing to deliver those for a lifetime you should never have married. And if you aren’t delivering them you are a shitty spouse.

[This message edited by PlanC at 7:32 AM, February 16th (Friday)]

And, yes, no holds or holes barred. I have not heard of “peening”/“sounding” before but if a wayward husband gave that experience to his AP he owes it to his wife should his wife want it. “His body his choice” does not trump overall fairness.

Maybe I am not reading this correctly. If so, I apologize. All I do know is that if my H, whether he be a WH, a BH or just a H, EVER reduced me to a hole or felt that ANY transgression ever equated in me having to hand myself over to him to even a score then I would have an easy choice to make.

Now that I am back into the dating world, if things ever become serious, this topic will be brought up....not because I ever would cheat and find myself a WW, but because I don't want to involve myself with anyone who would ever feel this way.

Ugh. If that's really the case, then our best advice to future WWs would be that the marriage can never be equitable again and they'd be better off to just end it.

Well yeah, if a WW is contemplating meeting her needs outside of the M then the relationship should be terminated immediately. There should never be any As! But once that vow has been broken? All the rules are out the window and you now have to do every you can to win your spouse back if you want to stay in the M under the new conditions. If those are deal-breakers for you? Then let your spouse go and don't contest the divorce. Give them what they want and wish them well.

[This message edited by skins21 at 7:39 AM, February 16th (Friday)]

SMH at how far apart we (men and women) are on this issue. It's amazing to me, and I'm sure amazing to the women reading this, because I suspect I sound like a cave man (and I won't say what the women sound like to me, but an equally unfavorable comparison).

I'd like to see what others think about something I said last night (that might be a little less inflammatory). Right or wrong, it's obvious from this thread that a lot of women feel this way. The question then becomes, is this one of the reasons that R statistics are so slanted (men are so much less likely to R with a WW)? Is it because women feel this way internally and it makes it more difficult (impossible, for me personally) for men to R? The advice/discussion given here by women echos the sentiment of general society; women don't owe men sex or any kind of sex for any reason, ever, so I think a lot of women would probably internalize that message and use it to justify "My AP got it, you're not going to". And, at least from what I'm hearing here, and for myself personally, if that were my WW's stance, it would have been D for me, no amount of rationalization would have fixed it and no amount of feeling like a white knight would have salved that wound for me. And the message for men is totally different, "do whatever it takes to get out of the doghouse", buy her stuff, promise her things, take her to fancy dinners, write her love letters.. Never is it even discussed for men "only if you want to", it's just "do it, you f**ked up, this is what happens when your an a**hole". And maybe this helps women choose to stay in the relationship?

By all means, marchmadness, ask away should you reenter the dating world. But I bet more than 95% of men would view this topic the same way as I do. I sure this era’s version of Alan Alda is floating around out there somewhere.

[This message edited by PlanC at 7:45 AM, February 16th (Friday)]

By all means, marchmadness, ask away should you reenter the dating world. But I bet more than 95% of men would view this topic the same way as I do. But I sure this era’s version of Alan Alda is floating around out there somewhere.

But make sure you phrase the question right. Most men, myself included (shoot, I married a woman where this was the case) would be OK with "I did sexual things in previous relationships that I don't want to do anymore". That's understandable, and I think that while it will hurt some men (it hurt me badly, but I respected her right to that, and I eventually came to accept it, even if it was a constant source of internal conflict for me), a lot of men are mature enough to realize that we do things when we are younger that we don't necessarily want to do anymore. I will say, I always hoped that would change as the relationship matured (it never did), so, while I accepted it, it was always "there" in the back of my mind.

But that's not it, the real question is "If we get together and I never give you anal sex, but then cheat on you and give that to someone else that I've known for a week, will you be OK with forgiving me if I tell you I never want to do that with you". Phrased that way, or any other flowery way you choose that conveys the same message, my thoughts are... Good luck. I can't see many men deciding that they'd be OK with that, and frankly, even if you did find a man who said "OK", I can't imagine him actually feeling that way when presented with the situation.

Rideitout,

One message that SI is pretty consistent about is that when a WS cheats it's not about the AP right?

Surely the same goes for sexual acts? Blowing an AP is not about you.

This thread is terribly depressing. It makes me feel like there are so many men who at their core believe women should perform sexually for them.

Withholding sex? This concept only makes sense if you are arguing that you are entitled to sex. And no one is entitled to sex.

I think this sentiment is what is bothering (or infuriating) many of the men here. I don't believe anyone is arguing that women are essentially sentient sex dolls there for our physical pleasure. However, most feel strongly that a healthy sexual relationship is an integral component of a solid marriage AND a material aspect of the marriage contract. IF a person (of either sex) wishes to enter into (or maintain) that marriage contract then they have a responsibility to do so in good faith with regards to the sexual component of the marriage.

Acting as if "withholding sex" is some fantasy concocted by misogynists is utterly f'n ridiculous. You may never have done this (though I find it hard to believe), but the overwhelming majority of women have... probably approaching 99.9 %. It is a fact. Many of us have experienced it in our relationships with WW.

It is entirely possible that we are talking past each other here. You seem to be concerned with coercive sex/force and I can see how that issue is intertwined with this (perhaps inseparably so, I have given some thought to the male ego/emasculation aspect of this which I would like to get into later). What we are talking about is sexual acts that the WW WILLINGLY performed for the AP. Many of us feel strongly that this absolutely means she should WILLINGLY perform such acts for us. It does not mean that she is obligated to in general, it simply means that if she wants to mend things and reconcile treating us AT LEAST as well as she treated the AP is a condition. That means she should be willing to go out for sushi with us if that is what she did with AP and it means that she should dress up like Wonder Woman for us and have anal sex with us in the bathroom on a 747 if that is what she did for AP.

If she doesn't want to that is HER choice, but we won't settle for being second class any longer and she is free to deny somebody else that act after we move on with our lives.

As noted by others, this isn't an "on demand" demand. It simply means that the sexual relationship within the marriage must expand to at least the parameters established in the A.

One message that SI is pretty consistent about is that when a WS cheats it's not about the AP right?

Surely the same goes for sexual acts? Blowing an AP is not about you.

^^^^^This is brilliant!!!

I feel that a BH forcing or demanding his WW perform the same acts as she did with her AP on the same moral level as having a revenge affair.

Tit for tat. Evening the score. Doesn't do anything to achieve true healing.

A revenge affair involves having sex with someone other than your spouse, not your spouse.

Let’s just call it like it is. Some of you women believe that “my body my choice” is more important than fairness in the scenario at issue. I don’t agree. Most men don’t agree.

Robin’s statement is not brilliant. It is illogic.

Do I have to even explain this to you?

I feel that a BH forcing or demanding his WW perform the same acts as she did with her AP on the same moral level as having a revenge affair.

Nothing is forced. It's a condition of the new relationship contract. If WW refuses? Then the marriage needs to end and she can do whatever sex acts she wants with someone else.

Tit for tat. Evening the score. Doesn't do anything to achieve true healing.

Denying your H what you freely gave to AP isn't helping the H heal. It's further degrading him and making him feel like the plan B loser that only gets the leftovers of the AP.

[This message edited by skins21 at 9:10 AM, February 16th (Friday)]

I feel as if many men are lost, unmoored--not just because of infidelity, but also for a host of other reasons. I think many women here are simply alarmed at the versions of masculinity that some men are advocating, types of masculinity that project an aggressiveness and anger that appear to put women in the crosshairs, sometimes a WW, but sometimes all women. There is a feel of war, and women are the enemy who must pay. This underlying attitude comes up in many threads.

We can feel that many men are hurting and feel lost, but you're scaring us. We're responding from fear in many of these threads, not just this one.

I think this understates the importance of fairness and demonstrating caring and remorse as it relates to this issue, however, it is a very fair point.

I don't think of my WW (or any woman) as chattel, but as I've considered this issue over the last day and I have realized that part of my stance does stem from an innate territorial need. I've never felt this before the A, at least not consciously. I've never asked what she did with others prior to our relationship and I've never pressured her to do specific acts that she did not want to perform.

What she has done IS a direct assault on my manhood though. She may not have meant it to be, but it was. You can say the A is not really about me (popular refrain around here), but it was TO ME. One of the hardest issues I'm dealing with is the emasculation aspect. Intellectually I know this is probably stupid and unproductive, but this is something primal. In some way I have to get this back.

I really would like to salvage this marriage if possible, but I need to heal my ego and reestablish my pride. She will determine if I can do that while rebuilding our marriage. However, piglike this may come across, reestablishing my "claim" to her sexually (as I see the marriage contract, I owe the same to her of course) is perhaps the biggest component of that. (I also need her to get to the point where she sees the A as disgusting and her AP as disgusting... which may be more of a problem if I had to guess) I don't trust her words. I am not assured by her assurances that I am the man she wants and that I am superior to AP. She has to demonstrate that through actions and, like it or not, sex is probably the most important action at this time.

I don't expect a sex slave. I won't force her to do anything. If she denies me those things she did with AP, I will be gone though. I do see how this is potentially problematic... but it is also something that I simply won't budge on. Hopefully this will be a non-issue for us.

Some of you women believe that “my body my choice” is more important than fairness in the scenario at issue. I don’t agree. Most men don’t agree.

And it's more than evident that to some a woman is just an object to be used.

I was molested up until the age of nine.

I was raped at the age of 20.

I will NEVER, NEVER!!!!! allow another man to treat me like an object for HIS pleasure.

My husband does NOT have the right to demand sexual acts from me that I deem out of my comfort zone just because we are married.

My husband does not have the right to say that I either do for him what he wants or else

she is free to deny somebody else that act after we move on with our lives.

If he can't enjoy what we do do together then he is welcome to leave.

she is free to deny somebody else that act after we move on with our lives.

If he can't enjoy what we do do together then he is welcome to leave.

The WW already ended the M with the A in my opinion. So yeah, if she doesn't agree to the new relationship agreement you better believe I'm leaving. Why would I stay with someone who cheats and treats me as second best.

The WW already ended the M with the A in my opinion. So yeah, if she doesn't agree to the new relationship agreement you better believe I'm leaving. Why would I stay with someone who cheats and treats me as second best.

This. I didn't ask for this and I didn't cause this. It is up to her whether she wants to take the actions necessary to mend this, but I am not obligated to take her back if she doesn't want to.

My xww lives with me.

Her sex drive is far higher than mine. She wants it at least daily. I would be happy with twice a week. I perform on demand because I should meet her needs. If I am not in the mood, I get there. Which is the way it should be—in a relationship one should try to meet the other’s needs.

She has requested a sex act to which I have not yet agreed. But if I had cheated on her and done that act with someone else, you can bet I’d do it.

Because: fairness.

Why would I stay with someone who cheats and treats me as second best.

You shouldn't. I wouldn't. And I would never suggest anyone else do so either. And that IS the point, no matter how much we might want this not to be true, men here are all saying the same thing. We're not lying. This is something that is very important to me, and many other men in R. Take it for what it's worth; call us misogynists or cave men. But this is just the way it is for at least some of us. And if you are a WW and want to R, IMHO, you'd be much better off listening to men here and considering this as part and parcel of what it takes to help many BHs heal.

Her sex drive is far higher than mine. She wants it at least daily. I would be happy with twice a week. I perform on demand because I should meet her needs. If I am not in the mood, I get there. Which is the way it should be—in a relationship one should try to meet the other’s needs.

I do the same. I have sex all the time when I don't feel like it. And don't have sex all the time when I do feel like it. And yes, I "perform on demand" because I love my W and I want to have that level of intimacy with her. And you know what? After I do it, I am always happy that I did, even if I was in a bad place or not at all in the mood before it started.

She has requested a sex act to which I have not yet agreed. But if I had cheated on her and done that act with someone else, you can bet I’d do it. Because: fairness.

Of course. It seems so obvious to me; and frankly, even if I hadn't done it with the AP, I would feel the same way. W wants something new/different, of course, because I did the "ultimate" new/different without them (sleeping with another person).

I tell ya what, as long as it's within guidelines, folks can offer the advice they want to, whether you agree with it or not.

The original poster can take what they need and leave the rest.