SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Sorry you are in the club no one wants to be in. My heart goes out to you and your family.

We all have our line in the sand that can’t be crossed. Only you can decide what you can live with. I divorced my XWW since she crossed the line. I can understand how a person could get caught up in an affair and maybe even kiss another man or woman.

But my own personal rule is “The Penis” rule. If my wife has another Penis in her hand, mouth, kitty, or butt or is just looking at one in real life that is not mine then she will be my Ex! Because that is far more than getting caught up in an affair. You know there is never an acceptable reason for having another penis in those body parts.

In your case at least she did not cross that boundary. Good for her and you she did not go there. I can get over a kiss on the mouth but not on another guy’s dick.

That is my boundary and you will have to decide what you can live with. After seeing my Ex suffer after our divorce and living with what she did to our marriage I had to forgive her. She almost ended her life and I still cared about her and our children.

The question is can you eventually forgive her?

I am so sorry that happened. Just try to breathe and make decisions later. Thinking of you!

Nice to see you around SG, hope you’re doing well. Fibble, what he said about “the line” is spot on. My line actually was kissing, but I wasn’t married. Long term girlfriend kissed another guy in a club, and BAM that was it. I never saw her the same way again. She was tainted. She went from being my [insert amazing qualities here] girlfriend to just another stupid party girl the moment she confessed.

This is a choose your own adventure story. It’s one you didn’t want, but you ARE in the driver’s seat. The folks here can give you advice and interpret events based on their experience, but you are the master of your own fate.

Whatever decision you make, make it about the woman you now know she is, not the woman you thought she was before.

Mr Flibble, sorry you are here. Despite the shitty situation you find yourself in, you seem to be handling this pretty well. Keep making yourself and your kids the priority.

Quick question, have you defined what constitutes "making out" between your WW and her AP? I think this is the key to understanding the circumstances you may attempt to reconcile with.

Whether or not "making out" includes sex acts short of PIV, is polygraphable (not sure that's a word) as long as "sex" is defined beforehand. WS sometimes attempt to gloss over oral or manual stimulation as "not sex", and this is a distinction without a difference that your WW may be clinging to in hopes that it is a mitigating factor. I'd recommend getting clarity on this issue sooner than later.

Kissing constitutes physical affair. Making out constitutes a physical affair.

Quick question, have you defined what constitutes "making out" between your WW and her AP? I think this is the key to understanding the circumstances you may attempt to reconcile with.

Whether or not "making out" includes sex acts short of PIV, is polygraphable (not sure that's a word) as long as "sex" is defined beforehand. WS sometimes attempt to gloss over oral or manual stimulation as "not sex", and this is a distinction without a difference that your WW may be clinging to in hopes that it is a mitigating factor. I'd recommend getting clarity on this issue sooner than later.

This is a very good point from Sanibel. Does making out involve hands under clothing, digital penetration, oral, etc. As Sanibel states getting clarity on this sooner rather than later could be a good idea. What does making out mean to her?

I would add that many do not know where "the line" is as they are confronted with a situation completely foreign to them and it's not a sterile hypothetical. It's a complete mess. It may take time to sort things out and that is not unusual.

Also, circumstance matters. Young kids, homes, mortgages, schools, etc. The reality is these things when present factor in in some way.

ETA: You seem to have some information on what has transpired. Often there is no knowing with certainty the extent of what has happened or exactly how things took place and years are spent raking through the pieces of information you have haunted by lingering doubt and questions that may never be answered. That is it's own hell. Had I known what I was in for, looking back, I think I would have chosen a different path. For reference, I had denial of anything physical and some good circumstantial back up for that. Enough was discovered and admitted that it was not pretty, but after a lot of anger and anguish and indirection, I swallowed hard. But some things do not stay down and I am pretty much back where I started in terms of what I will do next, just it all doesn't eat me up so much as it once did.

[This message edited by Rufus at 1:33 PM, January 3rd (Sunday)]

Brother very learned people here to offer advice. Ultimately you are there, know your WW, her emotions and the like.

Communication is a big thing with her. She has hit rock bottom and I feel is keen to get on with the R if you will want it. She is accountable and responsible for her actions. She needs to fully complete the time line of the EA. But as advised kissing is physical hence it could well be considered a PA.

Keep her mother away due to her brow beating your WW.

IC for both and talk. I take your time re D or R. But talk!!

One day at a time.

According to your story, your wife showed real remorse which most WS's don't show.

After confirming the truth by polygraph, you can try to reconcile. But if you think you can't get past this despite knowing the whole truth you should file for D.

I have to say, of the many stories I read on this site, your wife is one of the few WS's (maybe only) that i felt sorry for.

^^^Yep^^^

Thank you all for you input. I have troubles responding on my phone, so my posts might be very irregular, sorry. Also, this site looks confusing as hell to be honest. Long live 2002 face..

I apologize again for how long my initial posts are, but I thought that the best aproach would be to put here everything I wrote over last two months. Guess I was was wrong and I made a mess. Should have made it a lot shorter.

And note. I probably haven't made it clear enough, but we are not in the US. Full european breed, and english is not my 1st language so I apologize for any spelling mistakes. And for replying at odd times, because you know, time zones and all.

Dignitas

Yes, he's a complete loser. That's what hurt a lot, that my wife was willing to put our lives in danger because of this. But in the end it doesn't realy matter who it was, the damage is still the same. If it went far than their make-out session in his car I would go straight for a divorce. She knows that and it's maybe a part of why she didn't sleep with him. Or she tells me.

steadychevy

You calling the background "comprehensive" is nice of you. I have other words for it, like "too long". Looks like our stories are a lot similar, but I was able to stop it before it got out of hand. Now I am pretty sure his ILY was just a mind game, at least my wife wasn't stupid enough to take this bait. I am lucky I was able to put together a pretty decent picture of what hapenned (from multiple sources) and I think that polygraph would not do me any good. It was immediately suggested in my thread at LS, but I was against it from the beginning, even before I knew everything. For me it's a matter of trust, if I have to go through polygraph to be sure my wife is not lying to me the marriage is already dead. Sorry to disappoint, but that's just how i feel.

I always knew that infidelity is a dealbreaker for me. And if she slept with him it would be. But this is kind of a grey area, and with the house and mainly kids.. you know. If we didn't have kids I would probably divorce my wife without looking back. But that's my impulsive side, which I try to keep at bay.

ShutterHappy

As I said, polygraph is out a question. I know it can be useful, but it's not for me. Same goes for keyloggers and all this stuff. I either trust her or I don't. As the RO goes, no idea if it even exists in our country. Probably does, but OM hasn't bothered us in a while. If that changes I will look into it.

How did she react when she learned that he was seeing 4 married women? Does she still see him as Prince Charming? Probably not.

Absolutely not. He makes her sick. She doesn't give a crap about him now.

Are you leaning towards R or D? What is your plan going forward?

No idea. Probably more toward R, but I am not sure I have it in me

marriageredux959

HR *fired* her for what was basically a flirtation with a peer coworker, neither of whom reported to each other?

Yes, they did. She works at a position where there is a strong push for moral and ethical traits. Like written letter from 3rd parties when you want to even apply for this job. It might be even in their code of conduct, not sure tho. And it's a big part of her job. They went agains it many times during their affair. She was questioned and she admited everything, so it was clean case. But she put her notice before they were reported so it made basicaly no difference other that she got no letter of recomendation which basicaly prevents her from getting this job ever again.

So are we to understand that your wife lost her job but her AP did not?

No, they were both fired.

I find it hard to believe that any attorney would advise a 'quickie divorce' over an office flirtation, two non-penetrative, brief make out seasons, all evidence pointing to no actual sex, and an apparently remorseful spouse. Most responsible attorneys would advise counseling and therapy first, divorce a far second based on this level of extracurricular involvement.

No idea how this works in the US, but he asked me what my plan is, I told him I want a uncontested petition ready a he did what I want. No idea why he should play the devils advocate, it's not his job.

In reference to the attorney, not even sure your wife's physical involvement meets the criteria for adultery in many or most states. Most states require significant evidence of sexual intercourse.

I am not in the US. I wanted to go the uncontested way. No need to give any evidence of cheating, even though I have plenty now.

My apologies to you, OP, if this story is genuine,

but it reminds me in style and content of a previous frequent flier on SI, who had a HUGE multi-page thread filled with lots of bad assed posturing and scorched and salted earth and righteous justice and a broken and sobbing wife.

No idea. This is my first thread here. But I guess you are right, it sounds like a soap opera. But that's my life now apparently.

jb3199

Not sure where OP is from, but here in NJ my attorney gave me the three month timeframe.....assuming that my WW and I were able to reach an agreement. There is no separation period here.

That's exactly how it goes here. If we come to agreement on house and custody of our children there is no mandatory separation period and divorce can be final in three months. IF it is uncontested.

Mene

Something is not sitting right with me regarding this story. She’s not telling you the whole truth.

Nah, I am pretty sure I know the truth now. I think if they slept together (or did more than what she finaly admited) I would know.

SpaceGhost0007

Thank you, I read your story and I have to admire the way you handled it. I feel like we share the same outlook on this matter, and I like you penis rule. I feel the same. But even though it never went further than him going under her skirt and her immedietaly cutting him off, the mental images are still there. No idea if I can ever be fully over it

The question is can you eventually forgive her?

I think I already did. But it doesn't mean we will go back together. I see it as a two separate entities

confused2007

I am so sorry that happened. Just try to breathe and make decisions later. Thinking of you!

Thank you. I know I shouldn't make a hasty decision, but this stalling do us no good. I feel a little pressured to make a decision sooner than later, and it sucks. I know my wife doesn't pressure me as a manipulation tactic, it's truly crushing her, but I honestly can't. Not now

Sanibelredfish

Quick question, have you defined what constitutes "making out" between your WW and her AP? I think this is the key to understanding the circumstances you may attempt to reconcile with.

First was just a swift kiss in elevator, second was a 10 minute make-out session in his car. Some wandering hand on his part, the he went for it and put his hand under her skirt. This was too much for my wife and she immediately left. So no hand stuff, no oral and definitely no sex. If I believe that? To be honest, I do. And all the evidence supports that. But i know you can never be 100% sure, but how can you prove you DIDN'T DO something?

Rufus

I would add that many do not know where "the line" is as they are confronted with a situation completely foreign to them and it's not a sterile hypothetical. It's a complete mess. It may take time to sort things out and that is not unusual.

Also, circumstance matters. Young kids, homes, mortgages, schools, etc. The reality is these things when present factor in in some way.

Completely agree. I thought before that one strike (even kiss) and I am out. But we have kids, 13 years together and she knows how much she fucked up and is genuinly sorry. When this happens to you, it's not that clear as you previously thought.

guvensiz:

I have to say, of the many stories I read on this site, your wife is one of the few WS's (maybe only) that i felt sorry for.

Same here. My empathy is usually very low to non-existent for cheaters.

This story was a tough one man, almost got tears in my eyes.

I don't feel sorry for her. She put herself into that position. Kissing, making out is not honourable. She allowed it to get that far. Had it not been found out would it have eventually gone farther?

However, if MrFlibble decides he wants to try and reconcile I think he has a WW that appears to be very remorseful. She is perhaps the most likely of all of the WS I've observed on SI to be a good candidate for reconciliation.

MrFibble has no obligation, though. The decision is his to make. What is best for him should be the determining factor.

Children are not stupid. They know mom hates dad and dad can't stand mommy. I would much rather divorce and kept civil relationship with my ex than play this charade. And I'm not from broken family btw, my parents been married for more than 30 years and still going strong.

DO they know that? Do you really HATE her? Does she HATE you? For the reasons given? I know you are angry, I know you are bitter and disappointed. But do you actively feel out of love and this much dislike? If so, you have managed to do what many of us can't do-- flip the OFF switch to how we view our partners. I'm not sure that's all that commendable, in this instance.

Also, scorched earth is out of a question now. For me it was valid option in case my wife decided to keep lying and be overall nasty about her affair. She's everything but nasty. And if we decide to continue with our marriage it would be a horrible attitude to build on

You're touching on the part of your epic that I'm baffled by. Mind you, I'm not apologizing for ANY emotional affair. I realize the results of "innocent flirting" often lead to physical affairs but as I'm reading your narrative it just doesn't leap out at me as being hopeless and unfixable. I agree that you shouldn't take the word of the ONE person who is deeply invested in lying to you on the subject of sexual affairs, but it seems in her case she was backed up by HIS messages, am I wrong? Soo, to sum up, inappropriate texting for certain. Limited physical contact, no PiV sexual contact, maybe some attempts at "first base" that apparently were rebuffed. Balance that with a remorseful spouse (and she appears to ME to be this way), who clearly did her homework, clearly wishes to cooperate with you in full disclosure, and clearly understands what will trigger you and tries to help you through that (example: Ex-Asshole texting from unknown number. She reports this to you immediately, knowing you wouldn't take it well, but you needed to see that and her reaction). Seems to me like she's being responsible and owning everything-- not blaming you at all.

This isn't the worst we've seen on here by a loooooooong way. This seems like the most positive outcome of infidelity in marriage you could possibly wish for. Are you CERTAIN you couldn't stay with her? I know trust is a hard ask, but she seems like she wants to put in the work for both of your sakes. Do you realize how rare this is? I should have been so lucky.

It doesn't matter if she is the most reconcilable WW that ever existed. If it is a deal breaker, it's a deal breaker. If it's worth attempting reconciliation but you just can't get through it, it's still a deal breaker.

The decision is your to make. It doesn't matter if your situation seems so much less than someone else's. It is your trauma. It is your decision.

Yes, your WW seems to be the ideal candidate for reconciliation. I've said it again. The question of what you do is still yours to make. R or attempted R or D are all valid.

MrFlibble - The length of your post is not an issue. Telling us the whole story helps us not ask too many questions over and over.

***

It appears you are dead set against polygraphs and other methods of spying and monitoring as a matter of principle: "If I have to do that - then the marriage is over"

Well, I can't really speak for everybody, but basically everybody felt the same way - it's the kind of thing you never even conceive of when in a trusting relationship!

However, not using these tools has caused a whole lot of us much longer-term pain than was necessary.

You see, they are most important to your decision making and specifically to your reconciliation.

I'll make my case below:

Absolutely not. He makes her sick. She doesn't give a crap about him now.

How do you know that? Because she told you? How was it he kept contacting her even though she tells you she never gave it to him? Inquiring minds want to know. Is he some sort of private investigator?

News flash: Cheaters are liars. When they are busted they lie to protect themselves.

She never-ever wants you to know the whole truth. Please understand this. Remember the "I love you" lie. She boldly lied to your face.

The real story jeopardizes her marriage. She knows that. And not knowing the full truth jeopardizes your reconciliation. You should know that. It eats at you over time.

First was just a swift kiss in elevator, second was a 10 minute make-out session in his car. Some wandering hand on his part, the he went for it and put his hand under her skirt. This was too much for my wife and she immediately left. So no hand stuff, no oral and definitely no sex. If I believe that? To be honest, I do. And all the evidence supports that.

Man, I sure hope it is true. But I certainly wouldn't believe that some dude who is trying to fuck 5 women outside of his relationship isn't getting more if he is putting in that effort.

Also, the evidence you have is decent but not really "tight". Maybe we can talk about that since I can't really go through the 2 months of information your provided - and I am glad you provided it.

But i know you can never be 100% sure, but how can you prove you DIDN'T DO something?

A polygraph.

And there are also a lot of ways to prove somebody "did do something" including a polygraph or monitoring methods.

Some think polygraphs are not reliable enough. I'll tell you what, they are 1,000 times more reliable than the word of a cheater.

***

Here is the thing - if you want to divorce, you have all the information you need, though many go the spy route so they feel comfortable they made the right decision.

If you want to reconcile - you also have the information you need! As long as you are willing to deal with uncertainty of how far your wife went for the rest of your time together.

That uncertainty is what seems to erode the marriage over time. This appears to happen more with men as it pertains to physical boundaries crossed.

One thing I can pretty much promise you is that your wife continues to hold back information and details. Somebody as scared as she is isn't predisposed to honesty.

I am not saying that she screwed or blew the guy, or that he penetrated her with this fingers, or she gave him a handjob (sorry for the explicitness), but I am also not saying she didn't.

But, you should be prepared to deal with the fact that she has kept information from you. Remember her deleting the messages?

***

I would like to point out that these methods of obtaining information are not just for catching cheaters in a lie - they are equally helpful for catching cheaters in the truth, and therefore putting your mind at ease.

I'll try not to belabor this further, but the fact that you are experiencing indecision (like all of us have) is in large part due to your mind filling in and/or wondering about things that your wife has or would have kept from you.

Information is good for the sake of your mind.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 11:55 AM, January 4th (Monday)]

Another point: You feel the reason it did not go further is because you caught your cheating wife before things "got out of hand"

I agree with half of that. It didn't go any further (That you are aware of) since you caught her because you caught her.

But I think it did get way out of hand. Making out in his car? All the texting ++ the other shit?

Her lies to you? Her deleting evidence.

It was out of hand.

But I applaud you for going with your gut and taking action to arrest the progress, regardless of how far it really went.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 12:29 PM, January 4th (Monday)]

One thing I’m beginning to see commonly on this forum is: “oh your WW/WH is so remorseful! You’re lucky!

Seriously? Sure, on the scale of THIS WEBSITE WHERE WE TALK ABOUT INFIDELITY AND FAILING MARRIAGES they are “lucky.” But, by the standards of the general population, they’re getting a shit sandwich. They aren’t “lucky” just because their sandwich wasn’t as shitty as yours. Nobody on this forum is “lucky.”

I repeat. Fellas, there are woman out there who are loyal, intelligent, kind, passionate, and beautiful. Ladies, there are men out there who are just as great. Plenty of marriages never experience infidelity, EVEN if they have other problems.

Fibble, verify verify verify. I think the potential worst outcome here is that you stay thinking "she only did X, but not Y and Z" but find out years later that she did Y, Z, and the ABCDEFG...

If going further than kissing is your true line, then you need to dig dig dig before you settle on the belief that she didn't cross it.

[This message edited by Dignitas at 12:13 PM, January 4th (Monday)]

One thing I’m beginning to see commonly on this forum is: “oh your WW/WH is so remorseful! You’re lucky!

Seriously? Sure, on the scale of THIS WEBSITE WHERE WE TALK ABOUT INFIDELITY AND FAILING MARRIAGES they are “lucky.” But, by the standards of the general population, they’re getting a shit sandwich. They aren’t “lucky” just because their sandwich wasn’t as shitty as yours. Nobody on this forum is “lucky.”

I repeat. Fellas, there are woman out there who are loyal, intelligent, kind, passionate, and beautiful. Ladies, there are men out there who are just as great. Plenty of marriages never experience infidelity, EVEN if they have other problems.

Fibble, verify verify verify. I think the potential worst outcome here is that you stay thinking "she only did X, but not Y and Z" but find out years later that she did Y, Z, and the ABCDEFG...

If going further than kissing is your true line, then you need to dig dig dig before you settle on the belief that she didn't cross it.

All of this is true.

I bolded what I think is the most important part of your post.

In my case, when I wrote "lucky", those were "irony quotes".

Lucky in that it is horrible, but wait till you read the other stories floating around and how those other cheaters acted before and after confrontation.

But you're right, it's a shitty curve to grade a degree of luck. Maybe "not as stomach-churningly horrible" is more appropriate.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 12:24 PM, January 4th (Monday)]

steadychevy

She allowed it to get that far. Had it not been found out would it have eventually gone farther?

I am pretty sure it would, it was only a matter of time. But my wife obviously denies that. I don't know, she resisted but I think given more time and space she would do it.

MrFibble has no obligation, though. The decision is his to make. What is best for him should be the determining factor.

This would be true if we didn't have kids. I want to do what is best for kids, and by that I don't mean rugsweeping this to not disrupt the family.

KingofNothing

DO they know that? Do you really HATE her? Does she HATE you? For the reasons given? I know you are angry, I know you are bitter and disappointed. But do you actively feel out of love and this much dislike? If so, you have managed to do what many of us can't do-- flip the OFF switch to how we view our partners. I'm not sure that's all that commendable, in this instance.

Nah, it was a hypothetic scenario. I don't hate my wife. I hate what she did, but I don't hate her. Not at all. My feeling towards her are jumping all over the place. Not as much as a month back, but still. I feel crushing disappointment, that's for sure. And I feel sorry for her. And I love her to death. And I resent her. So there is no easy answer to how I feel about her. It sucks

And yes, she does all those things you mentioned. My biggest issue is that it still might not be enough. And that scares me as hell. I am not sure of pretty much everything, but it's getting better.

faithfulman

Sorry to disappoint, but polygraph is out of a question and that's my final decision. I have an access to all her accounts but I went through them once and that's it. I do not plan on playing her stalker. If I decide to get back together it will be because I know I can trust her again. It might never come to this point, then it's a different discussion.

And one issue that came up yesterday.

In the aftermath one of my demands was an STD test for both of us even thought I am 99.99 sure they didn't sleep together. It was embarassing as hell (our GP is a friend of ours), but we went through it and both are clean (as expected). My wife tried a few times to initiate something (it's been 2 months now) but it didn't sit well with me and it ended with tears and/or a fight. I know she's hurt by it, I am too, and my question is this - is it a good idea to be more proactive and try to put all this in the back of my mind and just go through with it? Because I feel like this is a big part of this distance that's forming between us. I don't know, I want it, I miss it to be honest, but every time she starts something the images are back and it's over before it started.