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I do think there's something to the idea of just burying everything from the old relationship, including the affair. So just take all the old anger and resentments and throw them away. Can I do that now? I don't know, but I love the idea of being able to do that.

Lots of people try to do that. It's called rugsweeping. It's the second most common response to an affair, right after divorce. Most people either divorce or rugsweep, with genuine, mutual reconciliation being quite rare. Get yourself STD tested regularly if you rugsweep, because there is a very high likelihood that she will cheat again. Ask me how I know.

Lots of people try to do that. It's called rugsweeping. It's the second most common response to an affair, right after divorce. Most people either divorce or rugsweep, with genuine, mutual reconciliation being quite rare. Get yourself STD tested regularly if you rugsweep, because there is a very high likelihood that she will cheat again. Ask me how I know.

I now feel really confident she won't cheat again--at least anytime soon. And if our relationship devolves, I'll be prepared for it. I also want to add that I'll be on high alert forever now. That is the worst part of any R--knowing I'll never feel completely safe.

I now feel really confident she won't cheat again--at least anytime soon. And if our relationship devolves, I'll be prepared for it. I also want to add that I'll be on high alert forever now. That is the worst part of any R--knowing I'll never feel completely safe.

It's clear you've made up your mind to stay and to rugsweep, since she is not being any kind of partner in reconciliation, to your own admission, and you make constant excuses for her. I'm signing off and I wish you the best, even though I don't expect the best to come of this.

[This message edited by morningglory at 7:20 PM, Thursday, June 2nd]

It's clear you've made up your mind to stay and to rugsweep, since she is not being any kind of partner in reconciliation, to your own admission, and you make constant excuses for her. I'm signing off and I wish you the best, even though I don't expect the best to come of this.

I'm not rug sweeping anything.

I sometimes find it difficult to know if I'm just not sharing enough information or if I'm being trolled by people who have made up their minds.

I have made it clear--and again today--that I'm intolerant to any attempt to blameshift or pull out old resentments and anger. I also demanded she stop agreeing to things she doesn't agree with. I need to see those things before I attempt R and I haven't yet.

Very gently, because I get that you're trying, you kind of are rugsweeping. Or wanting to or wishing you were capable of rugsweeping.

To believe for even a nanosecond that she suddenly gets it today (after your disaster yesterday) is literally laying the groundwork for rugsweeping. She doesn't get it. She has shown you 100 times that she doesn't. R should be off the table until her actions towards herself and towards you change. Instead you want to jump forward to confronting her sister and planning how to accept her awful parents. This is rugsweeping.

I don't want to kick you while you're down because I see that you want to do the work and you want to try. But you can't do the work on her. She would like to allow you to do her work, because she sure doesnt want to confront anything about herself thst doesnt fit the preferred narrative. This is why separation of some kind may be the only way for you to get some sort of space and perspective and to allow her space to see what she does for herself.

Very gently, because I get that you're trying, you kind of are rugsweeping. Or wanting to or wishing you were capable of rugsweeping.

To believe for even a nanosecond that she suddenly gets it today (after your disaster yesterday) is literally laying the groundwork for rugsweeping. She doesn't get it. She has shown you 100 times that she doesn't. R should be off the table until her actions towards herself and towards you change. Instead you want to jump forward to confronting her sister and planning how to accept her awful parents. This is rugsweeping.

I don't want to kick you while you're down because I see that you want to do the work and you want to try. But you can't do the work on her. She would like to allow you to do her work, because she sure doesnt want to confront anything about herself thst doesnt fit the preferred narrative. This is why separation of some kind may be the only way for you to get some sort of space and perspective and to allow her space to see what she does for herself.

But nothing has changed in terms of status. You're right that she's failed 100x, but if I've resolved not to leave yet, she's going to keep failing until it's been enough time where I can justify giving up. Or maybe she'll make progress in IC and get it. Either way, I'm stuck here, so I'll fill my time having sex with her and calling out her bull shit as it arises.

I do worry that she could fuck up and I'll get fed up before a reasonable time has passed, but if that happens no one could say I didn't give it my all.

I do want to actively step back on the affair time period talk and I feel like I can do that now.

Dr. S:

I have said from pretty early in your last thread that your wife does not pack the gear to lead a reconciliation, which involves both unpacking her own issues while simultaneously trying to provide healing for you. She does not have it. Yet you continue with this mindset (or hope) like Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football.

Do you see how this is happening? The why has been beat to death, and it ties into your own fear. But the how...that is the important part. How this is happening is you actually believe your wife's declarations are actions, when they are nothing but words. How many times in both threads have you made some statement akin to "Now she gets it!"...only to have her lather, rinse, and repeat her actions. She is who she is, and nothing major will change for her in the short term because she has a lot of problems she has to unpack. Yet you continue to believe these declarations. That isn't her fault; it's yours.

When she makes these declarations, she is saying what she WANTS to be true...but isn't. At least, not yet. The work she must do to ACTUALLY improve is monumental, similar to turning an aircraft carrier. It won't happen on a dime. So stop expecting it to happen on a dime. It isn't fair to you, and it certainly is not fair to her.

Your desperate need to have her fixed now...right now...yesterday...is making the problem worse. If nothing more than for your own sake, you must find acceptance in her flaws. Until you do so, you are making decisions based on bad information...garbage in, garbage out.

You do NOT control the outcome here. You only control your effort. You can want to reconcile, and work your ass off towards that means. If your wife quits or fails to fix her issues, your marriage will still be over, if only in name. So stop with the illusion of control. It is leading you to make unhealthy decisions based on flawed data. Once again, garbage in, garbage out.

I'm not suggesting you should divorce, even though it would be totally understandable. What I am suggesting is that you stop doing the same thing your wife is doing: seeing things for how you wish they would be, rather than how they are.

Just a couple thoughts about your recent posts.

I led my email pointing out that the highest probability for happiness for me was to separate

and then "she had three drinks and almost spiraled us to divorce"

Those two things seem related IMO.

And then a big pet peeve of mine regarding phones.
You are at dinner with your wife trying to fix your marriage.
You get a business call and you take it. Do you realize that you are telling her that the phone call is more important than her or the discussion about your future? (Yes I know what she did with her phone in front of you) She mentioned you do that a lot.

I do not know what your business is. You are important. You may be a brain surgeon or in charge of the launch codes. Or the convo could wait for an hour. Just go silent when in other important/personal meetings, unless you care more about the biz call than the marriage.

I say that because a good friend of mine is tied to their phone always taking 30 sec 2 minute or 5 minute calls throughout our meet ups. We can be in a stupid or an important convo and when they pick up, I tune out.
Just common courtesy...

Dr. S:

I have said from pretty early in your last thread that your wife does not pack the gear to lead a reconciliation, which involves both unpacking her own issues while simultaneously trying to provide healing for you. She does not have it. Yet you continue with this mindset (or hope) like Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football.

Do you see how this is happening? The why has been beat to death, and it ties into your own fear. But the how...that is the important part. How this is happening is you actually believe your wife's declarations are actions, when they are nothing but words. How many times in both threads have you made some statement akin to "Now she gets it!"...only to have her lather, rinse, and repeat her actions. She is who she is, and nothing major will change for her in the short term because she has a lot of problems she has to unpack. Yet you continue to believe these declarations. That isn't her fault; it's yours.

When she makes these declarations, she is saying what she WANTS to be true...but isn't. At least, not yet. The work she must do to ACTUALLY improve is monumental, similar to turning an aircraft carrier. It won't happen on a dime. So stop expecting it to happen on a dime. It isn't fair to you, and it certainly is not fair to her.

Your desperate need to have her fixed now...right now...yesterday...is making the problem worse. If nothing more than for your own sake, you must find acceptance in her flaws. Until you do so, you are making decisions based on bad information...garbage in, garbage out.

You do NOT control the outcome here. You only control your effort. You can want to reconcile, and work your ass off towards that means. If your wife quits or fails to fix her issues, your marriage will still be over, if only in name. So stop with the illusion of control. It is leading you to make unhealthy decisions based on flawed data. Once again, garbage in, garbage out.

I'm not suggesting you should divorce, even though it would be totally understandable. What I am suggesting is that you stop doing the same thing your wife is doing: seeing things for how you wish they would be, rather than how they are.

You're spot on and I've FINALLY arrived at this conclusion. Honestly, I didn't really understand it before--which I will freely admit. I'm going to try to sit back now, even though that was the advice 40+ pages ago.

Those two things seem related IMO.

And then a big pet peeve of mine regarding phones.
You are at dinner with your wife trying to fix your marriage.
You get a business call and you take it. Do you realize that you are telling her that the phone call is more important than her or the discussion about your future? (Yes I know what she did with her phone in front of you) She mentioned you do that a lot.

I do not know what your business is. You are important. You may be a brain surgeon or in charge of the launch codes. Or the convo could wait for an hour. Just go silent when in other important/personal meetings, unless you care more about the biz call than the marriage.

I say that because a good friend of mine is tied to their phone always taking 30 sec 2 minute or 5 minute calls throughout our meet ups. We can be in a stupid or an important convo and when they pick up, I tune out.
Just common courtesy...

This hurts to read but I love it. I hate when people are constantly on their phones and while I don't think I'm one of those people, I absolutely will continue to be aware of it and work to be better.

In this case, it was a relatively major thing and I apologized in advance and it took only 30 seconds. Most of the dinner was her silently staring out the window in a depression, so I don't think it was a fair criticism from her. Regardless, I should strive to be better and I agree with you fully.

What I am suggesting is that you stop doing the same thing your wife is doing: seeing things for how you wish they would be, rather than how they are.

Wow...so clear.

You've mentioned,a few times,you do not believe she will ever cheat again.

I have two thoughts on that.

First..you thought this was her first affair. Yet, she recently revealed there was a flirtation with an ex,years ago. You knew nothing of that. A flirtation is a flowery way of describing an emotional affair. She may not have met up with him..maybe..but there was lead up to that evening. That was an affair.

Two..she's done no work on herself. Sure, she acts like she is. Then her mask slips..and reveals she's putting on a show. As someone said earlier..she was hoping the pussy bombing would work,and now that it hasn't, she's pretending to work on herself. But,then she shows she's not. Not REALLY.

A WS who hasn't truly done the work on herself, is still a wayward spouse. And a wayward spouse will eventually cheat again.

Maybe not now. Not when she's having to deal with a pesky BH, who refuses to let her just forget about this. But, eventually, if you stay, and if she keeps pretending long enough, she will become complacent. Still resentful, because she never really worked on that. She will badmouth you to her family, because they won't hold her accountable, and feel sorry for her for having to deal with the consequences of a hurt husband. She will continue to complain to her family. Her sister will validate her resentment. And,one day, another man will catch her attention.

I agree. Stop doing the work for her. She will never be safe if you do. 180. Take care of you,and the kids. Stop the sex. Stop rewarding her with trips to Italy,a weekend away for her birthday,and nice dinners. Work on yourself. Tell her what you will require from her ifshe wants to attempt reconciliation. And let her sink,or swim. Watch her effort. She put a ton of effort into her affair. See how much she puts into working on herself.

You've mentioned,a few times,you do not believe she will ever cheat again.

I have two thoughts on that.

First..you thought this was her first affair. Yet, she recently revealed there was a flirtation with an ex,years ago. You knew nothing of that. A flirtation is a flowery way of describing an emotional affair. She may not have met up with him..maybe..but there was lead up to that evening. That was an affair.

We disagree. Her exbf was from London and visiting US with some of their mutual friends from high school. They reached out to my wife to meet up and she agreed. Then the day of the meet, she bailed. I do not think that was an affair—in fact I would have encouraged her to go had I known. The sole issue for me is the lie.

Two..she's done no work on herself. Sure, she acts like she is. Then her mask slips..and reveals she's putting on a show. As someone said earlier..she was hoping the pussy bombing would work,and now that it hasn't, she's pretending to work on herself. But,then she shows she's not. Not REALLY.

A WS who hasn't truly done the work on herself, is still a wayward spouse. And a wayward spouse will eventually cheat again.

Maybe not now. Not when she's having to deal with a pesky BH, who refuses to let her just forget about this. But, eventually, if you stay, and if she keeps pretending long enough, she will become complacent. Still resentful, because she never really worked on that. She will badmouth you to her family, because they won't hold her accountable, and feel sorry for her for having to deal with the consequences of a hurt husband. She will continue to complain to her family. Her sister will validate her resentment. And,one day, another man will catch her attention.

We disagree.

I agree. Stop doing the work for her. She will never be safe if you do. 180. Take care of you,and the kids. Stop the sex. Stop rewarding her with trips to Italy,a weekend away for her birthday,and nice dinners. Work on yourself. Tell her what you will require from her ifshe wants to attempt reconciliation. And let her sink,or swim. Watch her effort. She put a ton of effort into her affair. See how much she puts into working on herself.

I’m not stopping the sex—for one, it’s fun, but it’s also important for me to see how she can open up sexually. That’s a big part of R for me.

As for the dinners and vacations (which she has largely been paying for, other than the other night and her birthday dinner), I’m not interested in punishing myself. I’m going to enjoy my life and evaluate her as I go. On this one I don’t know if I’m right though—I don’t think she’s with me because I take her on vacation—she would do that with anyone (including the AP I bet had it gone on longer).

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 11:56 AM, Friday, June 3rd]

I do not wish to say anything that makes you angry. I only wish to make the comment because my country has different relationships so my view is a little different.

Your wife does not love you in the way you are loving her. She probably never did. She is very scared to be alone — I understand this. She cannot lose you now because she has no other option, and she does not know how to run her life on her own. So she is trying to do everything she can to make you happy but she really does not know what that is. She knows the sex works (it always helps some). All of the work on herself things are confusing. I would not know what to do if my husband was angry and sex didn’t work either. You say you want sex and please have her turn into a different person. That is so hard.

So I wonder, does it matter if she doesn’t really love you? She probably will be too scared to try to get another man to love her so she can leave, so she will probably not try this. So you love her and she tolerates you and stays with you. You were happy with this before so why not now?

In my country most of us do not love each other. It is just the way. We can still be happy though. Maybe you Americans all live like Cinderella, but most do not and our relationships are ok. If you have to have the perfect marriage, I do not think you will have this, but most do not in the world. You just can’t expect a person to turn into a different person who you like better, you will just get a person who is acting and resenting you down inside.

I do not wish to say anything that makes you angry. I only wish to make the comment because my country has different relationships so my view is a little different.

Your wife does not love you in the way you are loving her. She probably never did. She is very scared to be alone — I understand this. She cannot lose you now because she has no other option, and she does not know how to run her life on her own. So she is trying to do everything she can to make you happy but she really does not know what that is. She knows the sex works (it always helps some). All of the work on herself things are confusing. I would not know what to do if my husband was angry and sex didn’t work either. You say you want sex and please have her turn into a different person. That is so hard.

So I wonder, does it matter if she doesn’t really love you? She probably will be too scared to try to get another man to love her so she can leave, so she will probably not try this. So you love her and she tolerates you and stays with you. You were happy with this before so why not now?

In my country most of us do not love each other. It is just the way. We can still be happy though. Maybe you Americans all live like Cinderella, but most do not and our relationships are ok. If you have to have the perfect marriage, I do not think you will have this, but most do not in the world. You just can’t expect a person to turn into a different person who you like better, you will just get a person who is acting and resenting you down inside.

Please don't worry about making me angry! I love all the perspectives, and yours I think is particularly wise. You're right that we place a lot of emphasis on love, even though the word means different things to different people. I agree with you that my wife doesn't love me like I love her--and as others have mentioned, I don't think she loves anyone like that or is capable of love on the same level. Her brain works differently.

I do think she *thinks* she loves me--and perhaps it's unfair of me to say her love is less than my love. Maybe it's semantical.

So do I need her to love me like I love her? Absolutely not. I need her to make me happy, respect me, and partner with me to raise our children as best we can. Three boxes to check and the first two aren't there yet, but I see a path to them.

Wanting her to make you happy places a burden on her that is completely unrealistic. I would have said the same thing to you had she not cheated. Happiness is an individual endeavor.

I think she can do those things. They are not so hard.

I think she will convince herself she loves you. It is the easiest path for her now. I think, if it is to help, that I have done this also. My children are happy and so am I mostly. My husband has sex with other women. I have no choice to leave. When I first read these messages it made me sad that I cannot leave and so many people have the choice. But I am better now. I wonder, what if the choice is what makes you upset? If I had to make a choice maybe I would be sad, but I cannot so I live with my reality and it is mostly good. I can chose to be sad and angry but it will not help anyone.

If you want to stay and be happy, I think that is a choice you can make.

I worry that I express poorly my thoughts, but please believe that I am considered intelligent. I am educated which is rare for us but no one is around me now to fix my writing.

You’re not going to like what I write next.

Your wife is the type of person who in the last ten years could have had other affairs. Do not be surprised if she cracks and let’s it all out to alleviate the guilt and relieve herself of the stress. To lift the pressure off her shoulders and to hell with the consequences that may come from you.

Her affair with the cop escalated pretty quickly from first kiss to sex and aggressive sex at that.

I don’t think she’s shared with you everything.

I hope I’m wrong. Truly I hope I’m wrong. I think she’s hiding from you other affairs. Ones with varying degrees of EAs and PAs.

If your psychologist is worth the money you pay them, they will get this out of her, directly or indirectly.

Your wife is a liar.

She lies effortlessly.

Do not be surprised that this wasn’t her first affair. Or last. Just be prepared. You perhaps need to tell her that she needs to come clean soon because if she doesn’t it will mean certain divorce. And you need to carry that out if that happens. If you don’t, you’ll be her doormat for the rest of your lives. Cause she won’t take you seriously again.

There are so many stories here of BS who swore they were certain their wives didn’t have any more affairs.

Don’t want to alarm you but you’re only a couple of months in and she’s going to minimise and or hide her indiscretions if she can get away with it. She’s in preservation mode and she’s great at lying.

Dr., one thing that I continue to read is, you two start discussing the A, she gets defensive and starts to look for reasons to justify her shitty behaviour, you, rightly so, get upset, then she admits she’s was wrong and apologizes. Rinse/repeat.

I went through similar issues with my WW, except my WW never tried to justify her A by bringing up marriage issues we had/have. Mine simply continued to hold back truth trying to control the situation. Problem is, I know my WW too well. I knew she was lying, so all that time wasted on discussions just made me more and more angry and we never made any progress.

Now, as others have mentioned, a WS isn’t going to change with the flip of a switch, but there should be progress. Words, apologies, etc. is not progress. She is able to get her punches in, you get upset, then she apologizes, but has she shown you any concrete actions that demonstrate that she is putting in the work?

My WW kept telling me she was doing a lot of work. When I asked what she was doing, she came up with a bunch of simple things she has done, really very simple things a lot of WS’s talk about (access to phone, email, check-in’s, etc.), but when pressed, she really didn’t have anything to demonstrate that she was working on her issues.

I believe I mentioned it on your JFO post, but when I asked how much effort my WW put into throwing her BFF’s baby shower compared to working on herself and our relationship, she realized that she really wasn’t putting in much effort at all.

DrS,

A few pages back you had mentioned how she lies effortlessly or something similar, and that you didn't want to pursue that at the present. You had bigger fish to fry, so to speak. I am of the opinion that there are no big issues/decisions in life. Everything is a multitude of little choices. I think her ease of lying is worthy of attention. This could be some productive work in counseling that may not be as likely to cause a shame spiral, and therefore easier for your wife to deal with/focus on, yet still yield good progress.

If the counselor starts with say, the last time she felt she needed to lie to you but instead chose to be truthful, then the probing can expand to the last time she yielded to the urge and did lie to you - no matter how small - then expand from there. The reasons for those smaller incidents are most likely the same reasons for lying about the drinking, spending, flirting etc. and could be worked on in a productive way. Maybe something to explore. All the best to you.