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I'm a big fan of not having someone coach you through an apology. She needs to find her own words to state she understands the pain she inflicted.

I and you, don't care if she isn't a tender person. F that! You are expected to be tender when she isn't.

You might need to do an exercise I got from an online course/group. You both write out a letter explaining from the other partners point of view how they feel about things right now.

It forces you to really sit down and think what your partner is thinking. My WW's I thought was about her feeling punished. She thought mine was about me being angry. I was more sad and hurt. She was disappointed in her self and getting more depressed. It helped us understand that we assumed we knew what the other person was going through and why they felt like they did.

You exchange the letters and then write back a response letter. You WW sounds like she doesn't like to be tender, but I bet that is her guarding herself. She is bracing for you to leave. She doesn't realize you feel the same way. That you self loath the fact that you didn't leave or do something. You feel like a victim, because you are one.

I think if the 2 of write out these letters, even what I am saying is going to be off. People are complex and when you state what you think they are feeling is usually when they start to really try to explain themselves.

Give it a try. What could it hurt? You 2 write a letter about how you think the other person is feeling about the marriage. Any way you slice it, it is a good exercise.

Good luck. And as I said, that coached apology is bull#@#@. She should do better and you know you deserve better.

@HCSDI

Thanks for answering my two questions. The way you have described how your WW is handling this I know you know her better than any of us, but I doubt she told your daughter what actually happened when they were on vacation together. Also, you describe that your daughter is acting a little different towards you. I would sit my daughter down and talk with her about the events I'm afraid she might have painted you in a light that blamed you to her daughter about what happened. Best of luck!

[This message edited by HappilyMarried1 at 9:54 AM, April 29th (Thursday)]

...maybe she's withdrawn because she's working on healing herself.

To R(econcile), as opposed to R(ugsweep), you need to ask her what she's doing.

You need to focus on and ask for what you want. If she gives it great - R proceeds. If she doesn't give you want you want, great - you know you're not a good fit for each other.

But you will never be able to do anything but rugsweep unless you figure out what you want and ask for it.

figure out what you want and ask for it

I may start another thread here because I have done that and she has argued and questioned me why I would need it, why what she has done isn't good enough, and brought up my past behaviors that I'm "same old husband trying to control things."

On my next break I think I'll start another thread, you are all very helpful.

I have done that and she has argued and questioned me why I would need it, why what she has done isn't good enough, and brought up my past behaviors that I'm "same old husband trying to control things."

HCSDI - THIS is the biggest red flag in your situation to me.

The BS drives the R train. YOU get to say what you need. You get to feel what you feel. Your WW doesn't get to tell you what YOU need for R. And no, you asking for whatever you need for R (honesty, disclosure, details, timeline, polygraph, etc) is not 'controlling'. Infidelity causes immense psychological trauma that I just don't think your WW has really done ANY thinking on.

And frankly speaking, if she is still in the mindset of blaming your 'past behaviors' for her choice to cheat on you, then IMHO she is still firmly in a wayward mindset and is deflecting and blame-shifting. I am not saying she can't get out of that mindset, but she is nowhere near R material so long as she is doing that stuff.

My xwh did this too. I attempted R for 9 months after dday1, but he never got on board with being real or honest. I got the same blame-shifting, the same deflecting, the same lack of introspection on his part that you are getting from your WW. I understand completely wanting R, I do. But you can't R alone, and right now you're the only one trying.

She has argued and questioned me why I would need it, why what she has done isn't good enough, and brought up my past behaviors that I'm "same old husband trying to control things."

wow. Just WOW. That is some ninja DARVO (Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender)

IMO, this is NOT, as it stands today, any kind of candidate for R.

it doesn't fucking matter why YOU need or want anything. Either she wants to be married and will do what it takes to figure out and fix her shit and support you, or she doesn't.

You get to decide what YOU want. She gets to decide if she's willing to provide it, or not. End of story. End of discussion.

This is sooooo typical WS thinking, and I spent WAY too long early on biting this super sketchy hook.... I end up wasting time and energy DEFENDING what I want or need, rather than figuring out how I will walk when I don't get it. It's vampire level sucking of energy and resources, can leave you questioning your own needs, in the wake of the trauma that is brought by an A.

you can't R alone, and right now you're the only one trying.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 12:18 AM, April 30th, 2021 (Friday)]

The only thing I ever said to my daughter was "I understand mom told you some stuff going on and I don't want it causing you any trouble at all" and never spoke about it again to her.

Ouch. You might have just made your daughter not care about you, as you have indicated that you do not care about her feelings on the matter. You are rusgweeping the issue with your daughter.

If you get a chance, it might be good to sit your daughter down, and talk to her about what she knows, and how she feels about it. For all you know, your WS might not have told her anything at all....

HCSDI,

I am asking you this, and it is not trying to be a smart-assed question: What is YOUR definition of reconciliation?

To me, reconciliation is HUGE. It is the effort of two COMMITTED people trying to rebuild their relationship. And that starts with a partner that is ALL IN. I am assuming that you are all in, because you have been cut to your core, and are still willing to try to make your marriage work.

But is she 'all in'? I would expect a certain amount of regret and remorse. She should at the bare minimum, be full of regret. She should be thinking about how on Earth she could make the decisions that she has. She has betrayed herself, you, AND her child. It should be an awful feeling. I would also hope that there is at least some level of remorse building inside of her. 'Remorse' is the one word that I probably take more serious than any other word on this site. Remorse isn't instantaneous. It takes time....and the right person with the right mindset. It has EMPATHY. It has CONTRITION. It is no longer about them---it is about the one's that they have hurt.

Do you have that in your WW? From the little that you have posted, there may be some regret. But as for remorse? No way. The actions simply do not line up with the definition.

My advice? Stop wanting reconciliation more than her. Better yet, don't even commit to attempting reconciliation until you see a level of remorse and commitment that is needed to even try. Because if 'reconciliation' means what you have now, I would have my reservations about my future.

RocketRacoon:

You are rusgweeping the issue with your daughter.

You have an excellent point, yes I was rugsweeping it, I was more thinking of her so that she didn't feel burdened about what's going on with mom and dad.

I'm going to have to think about that. My first thought is that I shouldn't be talking about it with her, but then again she is a young adult and she might want to know more.

I really appreciate that comment Racoon.

jb3199

Only a BS can understand how unbelievably hard it is to swallow your pain and hurt, work on yourself and apologize for all the things wrong in the marriage, and take responsibility for all the shitty things you did, and you do this first. The adultery hasn't been even been addressed and I'm apologizing to her.

By the way, our MC had suggested this approach too, she said that it would be good if I would "yield to win." <sigh...> I can be thankful for my actions here because owning my own shit is the right thing to do, and I'm pleased that I did the right thing. I'm responsible for my own actions despite the circumstances, and that goes both ways for bad and for good.

Anyway, yes I'm all in and she said she was too. But no, there is very little remorse as you have picked up from my writing. I try not to hold it against her (after all, if you don't feel it, you don't feel it). I'm not ready to give her an ultimatum but that may be necessary...

The adultery hasn't been even been addressed and I'm apologizing to her.

MC is typically a bad idea in the wake of infidelity. There is pressure to rugsweep and pressure to “work on the marriage” without addressing the elephant in the room, often at the expense of the betrayed and in favor of what is most of the time a very skewed inaccurate rewritten narrative about the past history of the marriage from a wayward’s perspective. This narrative can range from outright fabrication of the “I never loved you” variety to subtler techniques of psy-ops that would make a propagandist blush.

The shell shocked betrayed finds they are apologizing for a laundry list “airing of the greivances” of minor or even nonexistent slights of the not-picking-up-underwear or not-reading-minds variety that are inflated with hyperbole and usually attended by no small amount of histrionics and theatricality by the wayward sitting in the therapist’s office.

Outside the therapist’s office in quotidian life, once the wayward has found this toe hold, they usually lean in aggressively to press their advantage and use argument by force to pressure the faithful spouse.

This often works for a time period, until the faithful spouse comes to their senses and is able to see through the dense thicket of obfuscation, lies, gas lighting and “flip the script” gamesmanship.

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:32 PM, May 1st (Saturday)]

I really appreciate that comment Racoon.

No problem. This is what you are here for; help to navigate your way out of this.

The way you have described how your WW is handling this I know you know her better than any of us, but I doubt she told your daughter what actually happened when they were on vacation together. Also, you describe that your daughter is acting a little different towards you. I would sit my daughter down and talk with her about the events I'm afraid she might have painted you in a light that blamed you to her daughter about what happened. Best of luck!

Your daughter knows that your wife was doing some inappropriate shit the entire vacation once the flirting started. And you need to sit her down and get her story on what she saw, if for no other reason than to see if she just made like it was no big deal to your wife.

And if they were sharing a room, you are kidding yourself if you think you daughter watched this all unfold and did not know exactly what happened when your wife came slithering back to the room by herself late that night or early the next morning.

The more that comes out here the more it seems likely that the confession you got was due to either your daughter being pissed and threatening to disclose, OR your daughter telling your wife Dad would get over it if she confessed to this one big mistake.

You are being told to suck it up and don't bug me about it and just accept it.

Whats your thought process going to be next time your wife wants to go out overnight with her girlfriends somewhere.?? Of course you will be called a controlling ass hole for even objecting or asking about it.

When do you stop backing up and standing your ground????

BRage

Whats your thought process going to be next time your wife wants to go out overnight with her girlfriends somewhere.?? Of course you will be called a controlling ass hole for even objecting or asking about it.

Been there. maybe 6 weeks after D-Day she went on another vacation with my two daughters, and her sister-in-law and daughters. Back to another beach condo (not the same one, but it was triggering for me) Neither WW nor MC could understand why I was scared and hurt and pissed as hell. I had already talked to a divorce lawyer and I knew the picture and it scared me, but I was almost ready to file for D over it. I had a couple individual sessions with the MC about it and we talked about it in session, the WW agreed to some ground rules of never being alone, I track her location, I get to call / text anytime and she has to respond, and WW cut the trip short by a few days. It was difficult for me but I talked to my daughters and her and WW was never alone and so I felt better about it. I'm still a little hurt though, that WW could not understand why it was a problem for me. She told me that I should be happy for this trip because my daughters & SIL were looking forward to it. She was totally clueless.

When do you stop backing up and standing your ground????

Depends on what that looks like to you, I mean she has complied with my boundaries about how she treats me / speaks to me. If I understand the spirit of what you're asking, I suppose it is when I'm ready to lay an ultimatum down, when I'm ready to leave the marriage and D. I haven't been ready to do that yet.

@HCSDI

So are we safe to assume now that both your daughters know the complete story of what your WW did to you and your marriage while on vacation with the one daughter. Was everyone on the trip aware of you and your WW situation?

I understand what you are saying about how your wife is handling your boundaries. However, to me the biggest thing that she has done is that she seems to have no empathy about how bad her infidelity was and how much the scanty of marriage means to you. I think until she realizes that and what she truly done to you to understand why you feel the way you do will you have any chance for R. I hope she comes to her senses soon. Best of luck!

maybe 6 weeks after D-Day she went on another vacation with my two daughters, and her sister-in-law and daughters. Back to another beach condo (not the same one, but it was triggering for me) Neither WW nor MC could understand why I was scared and hurt and pissed as hell.

Wow, really? SIX WEEKS later?

Can you see perhaps how from the outside looking in for some of us this smacks of so much entitled gobsmacking behavior on her part?

The more that gets teased out here, the less remorseful your WW appears all the time.

This is malpractice on your MC's part, by the way. Hope you got rid of this MC.

EDIT TO ADD: I think you are headed for a very tough wall of deep and abiding anger and plain of lethal flatness. It doesn't sound like it's completely hitting you yet. When it does you will really look at her behavior the past six months in an even worse light.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:21 PM, May 3rd (Monday)]

I mean she has complied with my boundaries about how she treats me / speaks to me.

Just have to point out - this might be true. So long as you don't talk about the infidelity or have any feelings that are too hard for her about it, and apologize for all the things that she says are the reasons why she cheated on her husband. Oh and change all your behaviors so she can be 'happy'.

The overriding issue in ALL of her actions that you have written about here are that she is not apologizing, showing empathy, having any understanding of how badly she has hurt you, taking any accountability for her actions, doing things to help you to heal... in short, what exactly IS she doing to start addressing the giant bedazzled infidelephant in the room?

in short, what exactly IS she doing to start addressing the giant bedazzled infidelephant in the room?

Not much of anything. However, just yesterday she agreed to attend counseling to learn how to have a discussion with me, and to get advice on how to be more empathetic.

So she agreed, and then this morning told me when her apt. is. This may not sound like much, but it is huge for her. Now maybe the therapist will talk her into D but that's OK...

Not much of anything. However, just yesterday she agreed to attend counseling to learn how to have a discussion with me, and to get advice on how to be more empathetic.

So she agreed, and then this morning told me when her apt. is. This may not sound like much, but it is huge for her. Now maybe the therapist will talk her into D but that's OK...

Hard to say. Many MCs don't talk any sort of sense. Hope you get a good one.

Hey @HCSDI

Not much of anything. However, just yesterday she agreed to attend counseling to learn how to have a discussion with me, and to get advice on how to be more empathetic.

So she agreed, and then this morning told me when her apt. is. This may not sound like much, but it is huge for her. Now maybe the therapist will talk her into D but that's OK...

This is a positive small step I think for her based on what you have said. Hopefully counselor can get her to see how her actions have affected you and your marriage.