SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

What the world?!

I avoid inappropriate interactions and situations with men because I respect myself and my partner, whether he deserves that respect or not. And even more than respecting him, I respect ME, and how I feel I should conduct MYSELF.

Babygirl, you are in no place to warn me and tell me to take heed to anything you have to tell me. I’ve tried to be kind and respectful, but you went too far with that. Check yourself and focus on why you cheated on your husband, and how you can try to fix that, if possible, instead of trying to insist that I might be a cheater one day too.

Well, I tried. Good luck.

Yea, you did try me. I wish for and hope the best for your BH.

hi Ghostie, I haven't read all of your posts, so forgive me if this was already covered in another area. I've noticed a pattern that reminds me of patterns I see in myself. In your case, it is wanting to get help, but needing the person giving the help to put themselves at the same level as you - not superior, not better, not in a position to judge - but equals. I 100% relate to that, I was never helped by a BS who approached me with a tone of superiority. I know where that comes from in my past. Does this ring true for you? If it does, do you know where it comes from in your past?

I think that when we have either chronic or acute trauma, we often go back and try to address it by re-enacting. Other than not accepting help from people who put themselves in a position of superiority, another acute trauma re-enactment I did over and over was to have sex with men. That comes from a 13yo rape. I put myself in that position over and over again to try to gain a sense of agency and victory. Can you believe that?! Punishing men by having sex with them. I realize now how stupid that was (and dangerous), but my 13yo brain was firmly in control, and the idea of getting a man to a point of sexual vulnerability, where there was nothing he wanted more than sex, and then immediately after rejecting him, felt like victory to me. Some other part of my brain knew it was shameful, so I couldn't even face what was happening, I would dust myself off and go on with my normal looking life, until the urge to re-enact the trauma became irresistable again.

So that's what it looks like to me with your posting, except your habit of engaging people and either getting them to agree that they are equal to you or getting them to assert superiority, and then fighting about it, is a bit less destructive than my pattern. Still, it's probably not helping you heal, and it might be a good idea to take a look at where it's coming from and address the root causes.

Hi Ghostie,

I remember saying "I am not your wayward," though I didn't mean "I'm not like your WS in behavior or character." What I meant was "Although I am here to learn and grow and atone for my transgressions against my BS, I am not here to be the whipping boy for all BS. I do not owe you a belly crawl as catharsis for your anger at your own betrayer or at waywards in general." The one time I got a warning on this site was when I publicly blew my stack about that. It was six years ago, and it will probably surprise some folks here to read about it, because I am generally a rule follower and a strong advocate of the benefits of SI. Despite getting into it with management at the time, I ultimately went on to become a guide and moderator. (I'm back to private citizen status now, entirely voluntarily, so all my comments should be read in that light.)

I am not going to try to tell you that you'll never encounter anyone here who feels free to treat you poorly because they feel they occupy the moral high ground. I will suggest that maybe you're hearing it more loudly and frequently than it's actually being said. Most of the BS here are legitimately trying to help you. Some of the best, most helpful, compassionate advice I've received here has been from BS. If they see you trying, they'll extend an arm to help you up. At the same time, they're going to defend themselves if you announce that they're all living on the edge of cheating if the circumstances aligned. Trying to get them to admit that because you're hurt and angry isn't a whole lot different than someone trying to force you into a shame spiral. It's not productive and takes your eyes off your own plate.

The shaming tendencies have also improved a lot over the years. When I arrived, there was a thread that suggested there was value in some cultures' practices of beating WS in the public square. When I pushed back, I was told that most BS would prefer to be punched in the face than cheated on. I have no doubt that's true -- I'm a mad hatter, so in addition to watching my BS suffer, I have personal experience of betrayal. But that doesn't mean anyone gets a pass for physical abuse, and it's an entirely different discussion from the practice of public, institutionalized punishment for a private relationship offense. I said I'd never submit to it, and that remains true. I also think it's rare to find someone here with a thirst for it.

Anyway. The most valuable piece of advice here is to take what you need and leave the rest. Note that it says "what you need," not "what you want," because a lot of the medicine that will do the most good is going to be bitter. But if you feel that someone is trying to use you to make themselves feel righteous and powerful, I recommend you turn down their volume in your own head. You're here for you. Focus on that.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 1:53 PM, Monday, December 1st]

Pippin,

A lot of the trauma I have comes from the manipulation and emotional abuse my stepdad did to me. I have a strong need to be understood, and I get frustrated if I feel that my words are misinterpreted. I choose to believe the individuals here are not doing that on purpose, but rather that they are deafened by their own betrayal trauma and resulting biases… I’ve spent a lot of time here trying to make them understand, I think, because the childhood me wants to hear that understanding and recanting from my stepdad. Adult me understands that it isn’t going to happen. I have therapy with what will hopefully be a "real" therapist tomorrow, with whom I intend to discuss this. Thank you for the reminder to take a step back and consider it this way.

I don’t want to "bring them down to my level." I genuinely mean what I say when I give my warnings that no one is immune from the possibility of infidelity. I have seen enough people, with very strong convictions, go against their purported values in everyday behavior. (You tend to pay attention when you’re consciously trying to enact these values yourself.) I didn’t think I "could ever" commit infidelity myself (and after each time prior to the most recent which weren’t "caught," I thought I "would never" do it again) because I knew it was morally wrong, because I love and respect my husband, because I held fidelity as a value, etc. I do not want to see more people so hurt by infidelity in the world, so I am advising anyone who’s reading here to be on guard and not believe themselves infidelity-proof…

So many people don’t understand how affairs and temptation can "sneak up on you" when you’re at your most vulnerable, when your hidden internal issues have suddenly resurfaced, maybe when you’re in a not-so-great place in your marriage… And along comes the perfect storm to sweep those values right away. Next thing you know you’re in a shame spiral over betraying those values and having an identity crisis.

I don’t want anyone to take this warning personally, as I know many people believe that only "terrible people" become "cheaters" and read this as if I’m accusing them of being that "kind of person." No, the reality is that there’s no "kind of person" who commits infidelity. It can be anyone. I don’t want to see others in the position that I’m in, and for there to be more BS out there. Where is the harm in being extra careful to avoid that, other than maybe taking a blow to the ego and considering oneself capable of infidelity, in order to guard oneself against it?

ETA: Don’t get me wrong, "haven’t ever cheated" is certainly something to be proud of. I still believe "would/could never" is reserved for the end of your life.

[This message edited by Ghostie at 2:50 PM, Monday, December 1st]

As politely as one can say this… fuck that. Especially when it’s coming from people whose reconciliation attempts didn’t work out, no offense. I see absolutely no reason to trust advice from divorcees, other than maybe answers to the question, "What did your wayward do wrong such that you divorced them?"

I can only assume that this was a swipe at me. If you'd rather I refrain from trying to help, I'll step away.

What did my ex-wife do so wrong that I divorced her? She cheated.

I was 17yo the first time I fell in love. A few months after we started dating, my girlfriend slept with one of my best friends (they were both at a two week West Point summer internship contemplating military service). I found out through the grapevine. I didn't break-up with her and stayed friends with him. I chalked it all up to us being dumbass teenagers and forgave them both.

I swore to myself that I would never, ever tolerate that shit again.

Two months later, towards the end of summer, a female friend climbed into bed with me. She was naked and clearly wanted me. I wanted her, too. I couldn't do it. We kissed a bit and hands roamed for a few moments, but I simply couldn't follow through.

Fast forward many years. When I got out of the Navy, I started going to college. I met a woman in class who I really liked. We started dating and I was falling in love. Unfortunately, it turned out that she was in an on-again, off-again relationship with another man. I was a distraction during one of their off-again periods.

A couple of years later I was in a long-term relationship with a wonderful woman. She went back home for a couple of weeks to visit her parents. While she was gone, I ran into the woman I met in that college class. She invited me to her place for dinner (off-again time). I went. We cooked dinner, had some wine, listened to music, talked and laughed. Then she kissed me. Some clothes came off, hands roamed...

Alarm bells went off in head. I swear I was out of the door in 90 seconds flat, much to her chagrin. I simply couldn't do it.

I believe that infidelity is self-destructive. I've done enough self-destructive shit in my life that adding infidelity is simply beyond my capacity for self harm.

Now... my wife, the love of my life...

My immediate reaction to discovery was to run and never look back. Within two months I was talking to a divorce lawyer. There was just one obstacle: my 4yo son. I couldn't blow up his life. I couldn't imagine not seeing him everyday. I decided to take the hit, put his needs beyond my own.

I came to SI to find out if reconciliation was really possible and, if so, how to go about it. Two years later I felt as if we had reconciled. I understood, as much as humanly possible, why she did it. I believed she was sorry, regretful, remorseful. I forgave her.

But... the damage was more than I could bear. I knew that I would never love her the way she wanted me to love her. I let her go. I let me go. We're both happier.

Was it a failure on my part? Maybe. I don't know. What I do know is that infidelity profoundly and permanently alters the nature of a relationship. That alteration is not only with a significant other. It alters the relationship one has with one's self.

Does this answer your question?

Does any of this negate the experiences I've had in my life or here on SI, learning from members, betrayed and wayward?

If you believe that I've misinterpreted your words, feel free to explain. I don't think that I'm right all of the time. In fact, I know that I get shit wrong. And I certainly don't take umbrage with your apparent anger towards me.

My only hope is that I can help, to pay it forward.

I will just say that most of the people on this site who didn’t reconcile tried to. And many of those pitfalls taught me a lot of what to avoid.

And reconciliation is not proof of growth. It’s an outcome of a relationship. Sometimes ending a marriage is growth or the start of it.

Your armor is more in your way than it is helping you. Rising strong by brene brown is a great read that helped illuminate this for me.

Kissing and "hands roaming" is infidelity if you are partnered with someone for whom that is not acceptable. Did you immediately share this with your long term girlfriend at the time, or did you keep it secret? (An apparition of Shirley Glass is whispering in my ear right now, "windows and walls!") Whatever the opposite of "congratulations" is, Unhinged; it sounds to me like you’re unquestionably capable of infidelity… That is not to "swipe at" you; it just an example of people telling themselves they "could never," but the reality is they certainly could.

If you are a BS who couldn’t get over your WS’s betrayal, that’s… well, I don’t want to say "fine," because it’s not "fine." I’m sorry it happened to you. But I guess what I mean is that if that’s the reason your reconciliation attempt failed, that’s one thing. I just don’t think you have it "figured out," so to speak, what a wayward ought to do in order to properly reconcile if it didn’t happen in your relationship. (Ought not to do, sure.) And I understand that sometimes reconciliation is just not possible because of how some BS fundamentally are… But I just don’t give much credit to your advice if that’s the case for you.

It’s like if I had tried to enlist in the military and just realized I wasn’t a good fit during boot camp, and then I went advising recruits on what they ought to do if they want to graduate and remain in the service. It raises eyebrows.

I do not think further explanation from me will help you understand what it is I am attempting to convey.