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So we talked about the fantasy story I discovered (see fantasy letter in Reconciliation forum).
I brought up that I had been Sherlocking and saw his notebook where he was listing goals and his goals/thoughts concerned me. Seemed more like SA, "no more erotic stories means no more, no masturbation, no porn, focus on partner, appreciation, etc." I am concerned it may be more of a sex addiction so we talked that through. He said he did have a period a couple of months ago where he was looking more than he liked and that was why he wrote that down but since he has been doing very well. I mentioned how much I hate that I snoop from time to time and he told me he wrote about a fantasy. He shared some of it but didn't mention it was with a coworker at first. I asked where it started and he reluctantly told me it was at work, he saw how this would be very triggering but promised it was a fictional person and that he just copied a story he had read from literotica. He wasn't mad I went through his stuff but stated he didn't realize I was reading his thoughts. I don't WANT to do this but feel like I almost can't help myself. He understands why, I understand why. He kept a secret from me for 15 years.

I just don't know. I'm struggling with it all. I now am rethinking maybe a poly would be helpful. I need to know if he is the fantasy was about a fictional or real person. I can't take the lies and discoveries. He says he didn't think this was something he had to share, his thoughts. I normally agree but I feel like given our history he should have disclosed he had been writing as an outlet.

I will post more later on this thread.

There have been many positive changes in him over the last few months and his goals align with what I have been needing/asking for but the betrayals just put out the little spark and I'm back to feeling less hopeful.
I can tell today he is feeling more aggravated that I snooped but understands why. Neither of us wants this snooping/walking on eggshells, "white knuckling".

For those that snooped, sleuthed, sherlocked, How long did this last? Was it a matter of time passing and not finding anything that wasn't shared/disclosed?
What is reasonable for me to expect him to share? If there were no indiscretions I wouldn't expect him to share his fantasies or me to snoop through his journals (I feel so shameful about this) but with betrayal I feel some of it is reasonable. What was reasonable for you to expect to be shared?

I would have liked him to come to me on his own and say something like..."I've been struggling with limiting my erotica reading and ended up writing a fantasy sex story. I wanted to disclose this to you for transparency and trust-building."
I would have asked if this was based on a real person and the context but other than that I feel the rest could remain private. Is this reasonable?

I think what you're asking is very reasonable. Given that the story was about a coworker, fictional or not would bother me. I think it's pretty normal to check up on a wayward, I don't really like the word snoop myself. He's proven he can't be trusted. Until there is a LOT of trust building that's not going to come back, I'm not sure if it ever does totally.

For me, it wouldn't be about wanting to control what he fantasizes about, it would be about me not wanting to be with someone who still fantasizes about sex with a coworker after that exact action caused me enormous pain. And it would be an absolute dealbreaker if that fantasy was about the AP.

I don't know what's reasonable to ask of him. Is it reasonable to ask for a poly for that? Fantasies are supposed to be private things, but he wrote it down and left it unsecured, knowing that you were snooping in his phone, so that changes things a little. It's a tough call.

The first time I snooped for a couple of different reasons.

1) Trust but verify (my DH)
2) Meet my need of ensuring that what I'm being told makes sense. For me this is different than trust but verify.
3) I didn't trust myself..

I probably snooped on and off for about 18 months. It was a.lot. at the beginning. After 18 months of DDay1, I was ready to let go, trust my husband and myself.

The second time, I snooped much less, and it was more targeted. Maybe a handful of times. And it was some notes he made as he was working through the steps. So, not really great on my end.

I think mostly, the second time, I trusted myself more and it really did get to the point that I didn't care about the marriage. (I wouldn't divorce...at worst just legally separate which my state recognizes).

It would have helped if I focused/prioritized myself earlier in the process. When I chose to prioritize myself, I think that's when our marriage really started getting better.

So, personally, this is something I would take to MC, and get further recommendations. I read the other thread and agree with BSR - I would not get a release to see details of his IC and make that an unsafe space for him.

I also want to say the post from recklessforgiver in that thread is excellent advice.

Does your husband have adhd?

I don’t know if he has a sex addiction, but if my husband had symptoms of that I would want that to be evaluated. It also just might be a fetish, and a lot of times those are more manageable than a sex addiction.

I am on the fence about the poly personally. I am pretty sure it’s normal for people to occasionally have impure thoughts about someone they know or have met, at least within reason. It doesn’t mean they want to carry it out. I understand that he has cheated and that changes the game because he has already done that.

If you poly him and he fails then you are running the risk of judging that to be a permanent fixture in his head and will have trouble believing his progress. It will not be something you will ever know of it changes for sure unless you oily him again I suppose.

You all are still in the early days after dday, it’s going to take more time for him to work though all this in therapy. So I would only do it if the immediate answer will be a quick swift divorce. Otherwise, all you have done is add to your misery as you continue to watch and wait.

If you don’t feel you would leave on that alone, You might consider a poly a little later in this, or maybe even change what you want reassurance of- making it more general about is he considering cheating. If the answer to that is no and he is truthful, then you can consider whatever he wrote was purely fodder for his *ahem* quality time with himself.

I know this is all very hard to withstand, you have just suffered a terrible trauma. You said he is doing therapy and making progress. That he gave up porn willingly. If a coworker scenario is something of a fetish it will take some time to work on reprogramming that. On the other hand, my husband has a fetish and I don’t think even with conscious effort it would go away. I don’t really need it to, as long as it does not affect his fidelity. But that’s just me, and everyone thinks differently.

If you decide to take on reconciliation, it is a marathon and not a sprint. You are not going to be able to poly him at every cross road. It’s expensive, and at some point you have to work through the trust aspect more organically than that or part ways.

I also hope you are going to IC too. It’s important for you to focus on yourself and getting all the support you can during this.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:59 AM, Wednesday, March 20th]

it would be about me not wanting to be with someone who still fantasizes about sex with a coworker after that exact action caused me enormous pain.

This.

He can say the fact that it was a coworker, in the fantasy letter,is just a coincidence, and no big deal. But that's simply not true.

Imagine if a wh cheated with a stripper,and a bs found a letter detailing a fantasy involving a stripper.

Or if the ow had been a teacher,and the letter had been about a teacher.

This is not a coincidence. While yes,it matters if the coworker in the letter is an imaginary person, the sad truth is that clearly he clearly isn't all that disgusted by his affair. If he was, the fantasy woman would never have been a coworker.

There are literally hundreds of different things she could have been..a friend, a teacher, a cashier, a celebrity, a therapist, a doctor, a cheerleader,etc, etc. He chose to make the object of his fantasy a coworker. That was a deliberate choice.

I don't see how he can see the pain he has caused you, and for one minute think of making this fantasy woman a coworker.

As soon as I read the word "literotica" on your post, my heart stopped. That site is NOT just stories. There is a very active forum on that page. That is the page where my WH interacted with amateur pornographers for years before finding his AP there.

If you are not aware of the forums there, or if you need any assistance in searching the forums, please let me know. Unfortunately, I've gotten very accomplished at searching things out there.

I think you need to change your perspective.

This isn't snooping. He is your husband. After an affair, he should be 200% transparent. If you look for anything, nothing you find should be a surprise. Because he should have already told you.

That he is aggravated is a red flag.

Seriously? The audacity of him being mad, when you find he's writing fantasies about coworkers, when his affair was with a coworker.

And IF it's true that je copied a story..tell him to show it to you on that site.

Again..regarless..he find stories about sex with coworkers to be titillating. Considering his choice of AP, that's a problem. It should turn his stomach.

Again..regarless..he find stories about sex with coworkers to be titillating. Considering his choice of AP, that's a problem. It should turn his stomach.

I disagree. I think it may eventually turn his stomach, but this early in he would not be a former wayward. He is still a wayward who started therapy, but no one changes from loving something to hating something overnight. You can demand it, it doesn’t make it true.

I would not try and reconcile with him yet, and she isn’t. But there is no switch that gets flipped upon discovery. For months the wayward will be more in their guilt and shame, and maybe feel remorse but that in itself is it enough to create complete change. The amount of change needed makes it more gradual because it’s so many things at once.

Look at how many bs come here and wish they could get to the point of divorce, but it takes time for their healing to align their feelings with their mind to do it. The ws may want to be the model spouse but that doesn’t usually happen overnight either.

I will use myself as an example, it took me probably six months or more to stop pining for the AP. I didn’t want those feelings, I worked hard to turn them around. I mean I fought. I wanted my marriage and I wanted to stop the other feelings more than I can even express to you. I didn’t break NC, I went to therapy, and dug in to every possible thing I could. My mind and emotions were at total odds with each other.

Eventually, I even got treated for OCD for intrusive/obsessive thoughts (which she says he is looking at that same treatment here). Then it started to subside and get under control. It’s why I asked if he had adhd because sometimes that goes hand in hand. When there is an obsession, it means that you have to treat the brain chemistry, something no one has control over. It takes lasting lifestyle changes.

It sounds like he is working on it. I mean the whole reason he wrote the story is because he has given up porn. It could be a fetish, it might not, it might be addiction, it might not. But if she wants to remain detached and wait and see and he keeps making progress, it doesn’t mean it’s not fixable.

I agree with most everything I ever see you say but when it comes to the timeline on when you think a ws is remorseful or completely changed is not realistic for all scenarios. It would maybe work that way in a one night stand or a far less involved affair. But a lot of times the ws has done a lot of mental gymnastics to be in the place they are, it takes time to unwind those narratives, and for the brain chemistry to adjust.

I agree that his fixation on the coworker scenario is hurtful, triggering, and very concerning. I can understand why she is triggered and why she is not reconciling right now. But this fixation does not mean he is still cheating. None of us know what our partner fantasizes about. I don’t think it’s realistic that people only fantasize about their spouse.

To be clear, I am not asserting that has any bearing on what she decides to do. I am just saying it’s not realistic that he is far enough into this that it would be turning his stomach yet. Most, if not all, of the former ws on this site will tell you that their change was gradual. It doesn’t even necessarily mean he wants or pines for his AP necessarily.

Internet porn is probably the worst thing that ever happened to marriages. There are hundreds of genres and for some people they can become very fixated on specific ones and their performance becomes tied to that. My husband has this issue, and it’s fine with me as long as he stays within the boundaries of our relationship. It’s not the fantasies in my case that would be the enemy, for me it would be the need to carry them out. Everyone is different, and requires differently amount of their marriage, but I think taking that stance probably just means the ws is never going to tell you about it. There is no way to police someone’s brain, but you can their actions.

I will just reiterate for the op- focus on yourself and your healing, that’s where your power can be found.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:01 PM, Wednesday, March 20th]

For months the wayward will be more in their guilt and shame, and maybe feel remorse but that in itself is it enough to create complete change.

I asked where it started and he reluctantly told me it was at work

He knows he's being sketch. He seems to be putting a lot of energy into his sexual stuff, and that in itself would be concerning to me, especially knowing his stated goals: "no more erotic stories means no more, no masturbation, no porn, focus on partner, appreciation, etc." And then to make the erotic story about a role his AP was in? Technically, he's faithful, but he's getting his fix for that dynamic via his fantasies and I would be wondering if he's thinking about it when he's with me. That's an intimacy killer.

Internet porn is probably the worst thing that ever happened to marriages.

100% agree. It changed my H's appetite and it ruined good old-fashioned lovemaking. It's rather heartbreaking, really.

I don’t disagree that’s an intimacy killer but they aren’t having intimacy. By her other post it sounds like a 180 is in place. She isn’t agreeing to reconcile and she isn’t having sex with him.

I don’t disagree it’s not desireable behavior, nor am I defending it. I just think he is used to stimulus to perform and he has issues that will take longer to address. I do no have an opinion on whether she should keep going. I do however have an opinion we don’t really have realistic time frames around here at times for a bs or a ws.

I personally would just keep pushing op to remain detached. I don’t think a poly will affect the outcome. Either he will earn her trust organically or not.

I feel like he needs visual stimulus still to perform, and at best has a fetish, at worst misses the excitement of the affair. Neither of those things are unsurmountable for a ws to work through if they want to. The second one is pretty common and does take time to deal with- even though it’s hurtful and triggering.

It changed my H's appetite and it ruined good old-fashioned lovemaking. It's rather heartbreaking, really.

Hmm. Well, we never had a lot of old fashioned love making until the past year. We still oscillate between the other stuff, but I do treasure we learned to feel passionate in that type of intimacy. Our relationship started as friends with benefits and I don’t feel our sex life ever really evolved from that tone until lately. I don’t know if it’s because of an increase in our emotional intimacy, or if it’s just aging makes you want to slow down, but I feel sad we didn’t have it before.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:54 PM, Wednesday, March 20th]

We will just have to disagree, Hiking.

Sure, it takes time for real change.

That's not the issue. He is jacking off to fantasies where the woman is a coworker. There's plenty of porn/literotica out there, that the woman is of any other kind of profession. He is choosing to get off to fantasies involving a coworker.

Again..if it had been a stripper,and she found fantasies involving strippers, that would be a clear red flag. That the woman at the center of his fantasy is a coworker,when his AP was a coworker, is a red flag.

This isn't something that should require real change. It's a very simple matter of choosing a different object of fantasy. He isn't doing that.

I find it amazing that the object of the fantasy could be any other profession..literally hundreds of different options..and you're saying it should take time,and work,and real change, for this to not be a fantasy.

If I recall, your husband had an affair with an employee. If you started finding porn involving a boss and employee, would that not be a red flag that he didn't really understand why that's not ok?

Waywards aren't stupid. He had to know that wasn't ok. He even said he understood why it upset her. So he knew. He just didn't care.

[This message edited by HellFire at 7:57 PM, Wednesday, March 20th]

Hang in I deleted half my post on accident

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:16 PM, Wednesday, March 20th]

We will just have to disagree, Hiking.

Sure, it takes time for real change.

That's not the issue. He is jacking off to fantasies where the woman is a coworker. There's plenty of porn/literotica out there, that the woman is of any other kind of profession. He is choosing to get off to fantasies involving a coworker.

Again..if it had been a stripper,and she found fantasies involving strippers, that would be a clear red flag. That the woman at the center of his fantasy is a coworker,when his AP was a coworker, is a red flag.

I didn’t say it’s not a red flag.

I don’t think it had anything to do with a profession, it was more of a scenario of a coworker. I am not defending this part as okay.

This isn't something that should require real change. It's a very simple matter of choosing a different object of fantasy. He isn't doing that.

I find it amazing that the object of the fantasy could be any other profession..literally hundreds of different options..and you're saying it should take time,and work,and real change, for this to not be a fantasy.

And this is where we diverge.

Unless you have been a ws or had an addiction or OCD, I think it’s easy to discount. In truth, I think he is over correcting saying he won’t masturbate. They aren’t having sex, a normal functioning male is going to need to masturbate in most cases. And if you have a fetish you can’t perform without that specific stimulus a lot of times without working on it a lot.

People with OCD get hooked on specifics. The fact they are looking at whether he is (and I think it’s highly likely he needs treatment for that. I had it, and I can tell you it’s hard to manage without a treatment plan.

I appreciate that you are a very black and white thinker and I think it helps people here for things to be broken down in that simple right/wrong way of seeing things.

But as someone who did a lot of recovery, you really don’t have insight into what that part takes. It isn’t simple to change something ingrained like a fetish, an addiction, or OCD. I think it can be very simple not to act on it in real life, but changing the brain chemistry and momentum is a different topic altogether.

If I recall, your husband had an affair with an employee. If you started finding porn involving a boss and employee, would that not be a red flag that he didn't really understand why that's not ok?

My husband missed the excitement from his affair. There were several indications of that in things he did. I could go into them but it’s not helpful to the OP.

I am guessing 90 percent of ws do miss the highs if not more. That didn’t mean he missed his AP. Affairs cause you to get higher doses of dopamine and adrenaline that Takes time to readjust. It is normal even if it’s not desireable.

I don’t think it was ever I didn’t care that it hurt him, I don’t think it was ever he didn’t care if it hurt me. It was mind versus feelings and impulses and took a while to reconcile internally to the point what I wanted in my mind was being aligned with everything else.

So to be clear, I understand why this story was hurtful for her to find. I feel they are not ready to engage in reconciliation. But I don’t think this is something he can’t change, and I do think that change is more complicated than you understand.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:23 PM, Wednesday, March 20th]

Hi lessthinking,

I'm so sorry for the literary gut-punch you received from your WH's writing. Painful for sure.

I'm not sure about a polygraph in this case only because I'm not sure how accurate it would be. I do think it's reasonable to consult a professional to talk about what questions could be asked. I say this because to my mind, a fantasy always has some kind of basis in reality. As such, it might be difficult to formulate the needed clear-cut questions. Maybe others with more polygraph knowledge can chime in on this issue.

I would suggest listening to HikingOut's advice. My interpretation of what that said was to make sure that the results of the poly matter hugely. It's unfair as all f**k, but sexual issues after infidelity are delicate. I think there's a very good reason that most professionals recommend treading very lightly in these matters.

Whatever you decide to do, I would also second the advice to do so with the help of a qualified counselor.

While I see there are some differences of opinion, honestly I think you are all correct. His ADHD is untreated, some of this falls into OCD for sure, and his lack of executive functioning complicates further. Hiking I agree it may be too soon and there can be real growth and change.
That being said, you are both correct, it’s still a red flag yet he doesn’t think really deep and goes for what he knows. Was it intentional about a coworker, subconscious probably, but he may not have the capacity to think outside of the narrow experience.
I DO believe he knew this was to be disclosed and I could tell from how he read it he was still in self-preservation mode and wasn’t as far along as I thought. To be fully transparent I had started to warm up a bit and not 180’ing as much AND I’m cringing at the potential response but we were intimate once. This was my doing and something I wanted but very intentional and not as intimate as normal. I had my reasons (healthy or not) and will likely go into that more later. It didn’t make me feel any sort of way about him though, just more confident in myself.
Anyway, I think I’m going to step back and tighten things up more. New IC, and back to MC with more experience before I warm up again. More to say but gotta run.

I think that’s all very balanced, lessthinking. OCD is a fixation and I understand how it’s like hell in your head. But I also know that is causing a lot of hell jn your head. Have they talked a treatment plan for it? I think this will alleviate some of his struggles.

Lying however, that’s not under OCD. Self preservation is ws common fare and he has control over that.

But I think you do have a solid idea of how to proceed.

To be fully transparent I had started to warm up a bit and not 180’ing as much AND I’m cringing at the potential response but we were intimate once. This was my doing and something I wanted but very intentional and not as intimate as normal. I had my reasons (healthy or not) and will likely go into that more later. It didn’t make me feel any sort of way about him though, just more confident in myself.

I don't think anyone is going to judge you harshly for having sex with your husband to meet your own needs.