SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Pardon my French.

I haven't started a thread since my first post after D-day. In summary, I caught my wife in at least an 18 month-long affair. She didn't deny anything when I confronted her. Admitted to everything I had proof of. I immediately started playing the "pick me dance". I allowed my wife to blameshift, because why on earth would she have done this to me if I wasn't such horrible husband? (God, I was stupid.) I even told her I must have abused her with "neglect". What the hell does that even mean? Wrong, wrong, wrong! Everything I did right after D-day was wrong!

I found this site a few weeks after D-day. I am pissed how easily I dismissed the advice of posters that told me to throw her out or out her to friends and family. My thoughts were, "They don't know my wife. How could they be so cruel in their advice? Boy, those posters sure are bitter!" (Damn, I'm an idiot.) Immediately after D-day, I told my wife I wanted to reconcile. Of course I would, I created this mess single-handedly. (Can you hear the sarcasm in my voice?) I drove her into the arms of another man because it was killing her to be with me. (What in the world was I thinking?!) That fog and shock after d-day had me doing and saying stuff that, looking back, I can't even believe I said or thought those things.

Today, after lurking on this site for months, I have a much clearer head and better focus. I started taking care of me. I know I am 0% responsible for my wife's affair. I am not playing any kind of "pick me dance." If she wants the AP, she can pack her bags and leave. Currently, my WW is feeling regret, not remorse. (Although if you ask her, it's remorse. ) I haven't even received so much as an, "I'm sorry." In one of our discussions the subject about her being sorry for the affair came up and she responded, "I'm still here, aren't I? Isn't that proof?" WTF?

Anyway, where her head is at right now, we have not discussed the affair. I tried to once a few months back , but she shut me down quick. I really wasn't ready at that point anyway. I was still focusing on reconciling, trying to control the outcome. I am non-confrontational to an extreme.

She nor I have gone to IC. We are just not in a financial position for that. My therapy right now is weightlifting 7 days a week. It really helps, especially with the rage. My wife has started attending an al-anon 12-step program. She is not an alcoholic by any means, but in her mind, thinks this will help her. I keep wanting to ask her how she is going to handle steps 8 and 9 - apologizing and making reparations to those you've hurt. (Yes, I have passive-aggressive tendencies.)

I have seen and retained a divorce attorney (Damn good one, too.). I'm kind of thinking that will be a necessity in the very near future. My adult sons will be home over the holidays and I just want to enjoy being with them and not dealing with this mess until January, when I plan on serving the WW papers. (My boys don't know anything about any of this, yet. As a matter of fact I'm the only one who knows about the affair besides WW, her AP and a couple of her closest friends.)

Yesterday, WW and I got into a heated discussion. I think women can sense emotions much better than men. She could tell something has been "off" with me lately. I haven't told her that I have been distancing myself from her, but she could feel it. She called me on the phone as I was leaving the house and asked me what was wrong. I told her I just have a heavy heart and that we need to talk. To which she replied, "Is this about sex? This is about sex isn't it? That's OK, I get it. I'm just never going to be good enough for you. I thought things have been going really well for us lately." (HOLY COW, REALLY?) For the record folks, I am not going to allow the rugsweeping to continue. It's just that I don't even think the conversation about the affair is even necessary now if I am going to D. Her actions since d-day are not worthy of attempting R. (Man, that hurts to type that!)

I guess my question is if I should have that affair conversation with her. If so, how do you psyche yourself up for it? I think sisoon said," At one point, before I learned to be assertive in my own way, I sometimes said things the way I though John Wayne would say them."

I know I've rambled, but any input on ANYTHING I've said, please let me have it. I truly appreciate everyone's participation in these forums. The insight I have gained these last few months has been incredible.

NotTheVictim(you are funny as hell), sisoon, xhz700, ohforanewme, Sharkman (why couldn't I think of a cool handle like that?), antlered (reminds me of when I hit a deer a few years back and it's antler punctured my radiator) , and everyone else on this site - Y'all are awesome!

I wish I was posting in the Reconciliation forum. Sadly, I just don't think that is going to happen.

HopelesslyBlindly, nope no 2x4's coming.

Swinging 2x4's are not very lady like and I wont swing any .

What I will say , please don't be too hard on yourself that you had misconceptions of how A's are , how hurtful they are and how to best deal with them.

Here's a thread where BS's here share about misconceptions they had before they were cheated on.

"Misconceptions about A's you had b/4 being cheated on? "

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=593607

"Before the A

The BS must have done SOMETHING to make the WS consider cheating.

That something may be

1) Not enough sex

2) A nag

3) Cold

4) Unsupportive

5)ETC to infinity.

During the A

How can the BS not know that the A is going on ?

How can the BS not spot the signs of an A?

How can the BS not know that they are being lied to ?

After Dday

The BS is dumb for staying with the WS.

The BS is vindictive and unforgiving if they divorce.

It is the BS fault when the BS can't "get over it" within a month or less."

[This message edited by Dorothy123 at 3:27 PM, November 3rd (Friday)]

Dude, my recommendation if you are divorcing, then keep eyes open and mouth shut. No, you dont need to talk about the affair, (and therefore the divorce). And its james bond time. Allowing her to misdirect herself is acceptable under these circumstances.

You are james bond.

No 2x4's for NTV either.

NTV gets a whoopee cushion !

*Dorothy has to watch where she sits now because NTV has a whoopee cushion *

[This message edited by Dorothy123 at 12:21 PM, November 3rd (Friday)]

Okay I am going to give you my two cents.

Calm and rational you sit down (any day you are ready). Do not open with “I want to talk about the A” b/c that will put her on the defensive.

But kindly say I want US to deal with the issues in our past (year or # of months or # of days - you get the idea).

Tell her that you expect her to be honest and tell her you will be honest and truthful as well.

And tell her that you have hope for the M and can see that we both want to reconcile BUT we need to calmly discuss the A and what happened and how it has affected you.

Tell her you want to put boundaries in place for both of you so neither of you will face this issue again.

From this calm rational talk you then ask her one question about the A. Whatever you want.

If she lies and you know she is lying you should calmly tell her that you know that response is not truthful or accurate or it’s a lie. Whatever words you choose you need to let her know she has little chance to heal the M if she continues to lie and be evasive.

Ask the question again and if she lies again tell her this: I am sorry that you don’t respect me enough or love me enough to be honest. I asked you in a kind and living way to address our issues and work together to resolve them. But you seem unwilling to be honest so you have left me with no choice but to stop attempting reconciliation with you. “

Leave the room b/c you have your answer. She is not remorseful or willing to change being a liar and coward. You can stay married to her but always know she is a liar and coward.

I did this to my H and he finally stopped trying to cover his butt and was honest. When I left the room it was not in anger but with confidence. He got the message.

1. Great job on the attorney. You may not use him/her to divorce but you need to understand your rights so that you can start getting your emotions settled. Understanding means order.

2. Can you detail how you have exposed to friends and family

3. In your original post you did not divulge details about her boyfriend. Can you give us a few more details.

4. Are you monitoring her communications now?

If you want to reconcile... Do so once you are 100% sure AP is out of the picture. If you don't then don't.

Find someone to talk to irl. If you don't this will eat you alive. Don't ask to talk about stuff. Just say, we need to talk, if you are alone at that point lay it out.

Don't rugsweep, accept no blame for the affair, but instantly own anything that is your fault. Stay strong.

I think it starts with knowing (or not) what you want to do. If you think it's D, I suggest asking yourself, 'If she becomes remorseful, what then?' If remorse on her part opens up the possibility of R on your part, I think you're not quite ready to D.

So test her. Think of your requirements for R. I get that IC is expensive, but unless you're in NYC, LA, SF, it's cheaper than D, so I'd include IC for your W, along with answering questions, no more lies, transparency, asking for what you want as a minimum.

I like The1stWife's approach to opening the discussion, but you know best what will work.

Own your power - if you doubt it, look at how you've changed since the early days.

Present your requirements and ask her to respond. If she agrees to meet them, or if she negotiates some alternatives that you're good with, then R is possible. If she doesn't, then D is your answer because you just aren't a good couple any more.

Be clear about what you want, both to yourself and to your W. You can say, 'Are you willing to show you love me? Are you willing to show you're in love with me? How will you do those things?'

It's scary to acknowledge publicly that you want to be loved and desired - at least I found it so, but it was liberating, too.

Be yourself, bro. Be yourself.

The above are written as commands. They're not; they're suggestions. You can only do it your way.

The John Wayne thing helped me find my power. I hope it helps you find and exercise yours.

No ass-kicking needed.

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:33 PM, November 3rd (Friday)]

I guess, step one is always get out of infidelity.

Are you sure that this affair is over? How did it end? When did it end?

Second, you need the truth about things. Do you have all of the truth? If not, how do you plan on getting it? Cell phone location services, recovering deleted things on the cell phone, there are plenty of ways to get you there.

Then, you can decide on what you want to do.

I did everything wrong too. It tool me 6 years just to get to the point that I understood what I did wrong. My rugsweeping was done with a gold plated broom, and I held the rug. It didn't work out, and now I am getting a divorce.

No 2x4's friend. You learn better, you do better.

What do you want? Frankly, you aren't even at a point that you can decide to R yet, and if you can't get past where you are, the only option is going to be D. In my opinion, given the time since D-Day, D papers are going to be your best bet.

Yup. You were a chump in the beginning. You made all the mistakes BS's make.

I was a chump too. The first couple paragraphs you wrote could have come from my mouth. I made every single chump error possible.

Good news is you can see your chumpiness, and have chosen to no longer be a chump.

That is fucking awesome! Take a moment to appreciate how far beyond the average person you've already come.

I'm saying chump because of No Soliciting

You've got my respect and support, please try and find a way to get IC though. It's crucial!

[This message edited by SI Staff at 11:17 AM, November 4th (Saturday)]

First, cut yourself some slack. We all made mistakes, and this shit doesn't come with a handbook.

To answer your question, if you want to know stuff, you need to ask her. If you want to D and you don't need/want details, then don't bother!

Not everyone needs the details. I don't know every single thing, and some of it is still more than I want to remember.

IMHO, if she doesn't "allow" you to discuss the A, she's not R material. She may become so in the future. Filing for D might shake her out of it. But it sounds to me like she doesn't get it and I can't imagine trying to R with someone so uncooperative.

I understand that it hurts either way. Take care of you.

I'm a WS.

First off, I don't automatically believe that a WS who is saying the things yours is saying is still in the affair. However, I think her reaction to you trying to discuss the affair is very defensive and obviously detrimental to any chance of reconciliation whether she is still cheating or not. I agree with you that she's not displaying remorse, and from what you posted I don't even see regret. "I'm still here, aren't I?" isn't either one. Why on earth she would think that's something you should be doing cartwheels over is beyond me.

I don't think you should bother discussing the affair again if you're sure divorce is what you want. I do agree with Sisoon that if she does display remorse and it causes you to want or hope for R, you may not be ready to divorce. My husband divorced very hastily and ended up regretting it (we are now remarried).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with divorce being your decision if it is in fact what you choose. You have ample justification for it and frankly even if you didn't, you don't need justification---this is not the Dark Ages or whatever; nobody is shackled to a marriage or spouse they are unhappy with.

Dorothy123 - You are so awesome, too! I have read that thread. It helped show me it wasn't about me. Pretty liberating. I had to laugh out loud when I read Before the A - Items 1,2,3,4,5 - That was HER! LOL!

NTV - I am James Bond! Shaken.....not stirred! Can I borrow the Whoopie cushion when you are through with it?

The1stWife - That is a great approach. I will definitely go at it that way. I like your recommendation to just start with one question. Kinda like how you eat an elephant - one bite at a time.

Sharkman! -

1. As a CPA, I knew which attorney other attorneys HATED going against. I picked her. I will be in good hands.

2. I have not exposed her to anyone. This may be where a 2x4 is needed. I was not thinking clearly at first. Lately, I think of this as leverage in working things out through a divorce. She is deathly afraid of people finding out. Maybe I'm not thinking about this in the right way.

3. AP is a divorced DEA agent. He's 54 years old. A taekwondo instructor. Cockiest bastard that ever walked the face of the planet. Has a face only a mother could love. LOL! The stuff I have on him in texts and voicemails would get him fired. I know where he lives. The idiot posts so much on Facebook. Granted, I know with his job he has access to a lot of electronic toys that can monitor me or WW. How I would love to catch him using government assets for his personal use. My wife has no idea how much I really know about him. I like it that way.

4. I am probably monitoring her way more than I should. GPS device in her car, phone tracking, app history use, phone records. If I caught her with him or communicating with him in any way, it would just make things SO much easier for me. The only unknown is a burner phone. I am hyper-vigilant in checking her car, purse, desk, etc. for it. I haven't found one yet, but I know AP has showed her how he uses one. Breaking NC means she would be picking up her clothes and personal items off the front lawn and she knows that.

Thornier - It's weird how I still love her. I had always felt that an affair was a deal breaker.......until it actually happened. My father was a serial cheater. I saw my mother get torn apart inside. It changed her forever. I wished she divorced him, but I know she stayed for her kids' sake. Funny thing is, this caused me to be very sensitive about my boundaries so I would never do this to my family. I was the one worried about letting my family down by cheating. Right now I just have been in observation mode. Watching to see if remorse kicks in and if she "gets it". I do need to find someone to talk to. I have been thinking about this for a while now. As for rugsweeping, I ABSOLUTELY have been doing that. If there is any chance at R, I will be yanking the carpet out! As for changing myself, this affair has nuked me out of my comfort zone! I am in the best physical shape of my life. I have taken over most duties of the household.(Kind of in preparation of D) I have started putting me first. I've been liking who I am lately.

sisoon - You are absolutely right. If WW shows remorse and "gets it" - I already have IC lined up for her(a couple of recommended counselors she could interview). I have just been saving the $ for an attorney since I don't think she ever will "get it." I know she can't stand to look at herself in the mirror and believe she really did what she did. She has a shipload of pride! I think her pride is what is keeping us from even attempting R(at least on my terms and my definition of R). One comment from her after d-day was, "I'll be damned if I am going to take 100% responsibility for this affair!" My WW is 5-foot nothing, weighs 100 lbs soaking wet, is very attractive on the outside. What I am finding now - she is not that attractive on the inside. I have made a list of what I need out of our marriage going forward(requirements, not options). Being loved and desired is part of that list. Maybe I will get the chance to go over those if I could just see some remorse. You're the best sisoon and I LOVE John Wayne...PILGRIM!

xhz700 - I'm over 90% pretty sure NC is being maintained. It sucks feeling like a damn warden. How did it end? Well, stupid me allowed her to call him so she could have "closure." (instead of the cheater's handbook, I studied the idiot's guide to screwing things up after catching your wife in an affair handbook) Oh, did I also mention she took it upon herself to make that call without me around? Let's just say the first couple of months, I was doing exactly the opposite of the good advice given on this forum. I wish I had found SI sooner. After I caught the AP breaking contact a couple of weeks later, I sent him a text saying if he tried to make contact with my wife again, things would escalate. Phone records, app use, and gps locations have shown there would have been extremely limited opportunities for contact. The only question would be a burner phone and I am keeping a close eye out for it.

When did it end? I found out 3/15/17, my NC text went out 4/7/17. I haven't been able to catch any break in NC since that April date.

Frankly, you aren't even at a point that you can decide to R yet, and if you can't get past where you are, the only option is going to be D. In my opinion, given the time since D-Day, D papers are going to be your best bet.

^^^^^^This. I know you are right.

SuckaNoMore - Thanks, Man! No Soliciting Your support is well received and I agree with your comment about IC. I know I need it, too.

tiredofcrying59 - I try cutting myself some slack, but I feel I could be in such a completely different place in life at this moment if I didn't make so many boneheaded mistakes at the beginning.

IMHO, if she doesn't "allow" you to discuss the A, she's not R material. She may become so in the future. Filing for D might shake her out of it. But it sounds to me like she doesn't get it and I can't imagine trying to R with someone so uncooperative.

^^^^^This. It is the conclusion I have come to as well.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:44 AM, November 5th (Sunday)]

Dorothy123 - You are so awesome, too!

Thank you !

I have read that thread. It helped show me it wasn't about me. Pretty liberating

There's nothing like impending divorce to bring a wayward to true remorse. I think you're on the right track Hopelessly.

Darkness Falls - Thank you for posting. I find myself on the Wayward board at times just to see what advice veteran WS's are giving newbie WS's to see if my wife is exhibiting any actions that would be worthy of R. Sadly, I agree with you. Sometimes I think the only regret she has is getting caught. You are probably right about that. Divorce is not something that I really want but I'm not going to just wait around hoping for her actions to show that we have something to work with.

I know that SI is fortunate to have you, Root, sorrowfulmate, and many, many other WS's helping others on this site. I am praying for your family, little ones, and your health, Darkness Falls.

Dismayed2012 - Thank you. It makes sense to me that a divorce would snap some sense back into her, but she hasn't been doing anything that has been making much sense to me lately, though. I think she would just rather pretend nothing happened and "just move on" as she puts it.

[This message edited by HoplesslyBlind at 3:51 PM, November 3rd (Friday)]

Wait, I'm supposed to be done with the woopie cushion at some point?

....shhhit. bucket list needs re-evaluated now....

Of the thousands of posters here you could probably count the ones who did everything right on one hand.

My opinion is you really want to reconcile. The issue seems to be she has suffered zero consequences for a year and a half affair. You should tell her you want to talk about it and you have seen a divorce attorney. She is comfortable right where she is. You need to move her off that spot. She has done nothing for you, in fact it’s less than nothing. She insisted on closure, she won’t discuss, and you have to track her like a warden.

She should be kissing your ass every day you are there. What’s the downside of forcing the issue. If she gets all defensive and threatens to walk, you have your answer. If she reacts like an ice bucket was thrown on her head she might be ready to actually help you heal.

You have nothing to lose. You have the best attorney. If you wait to surprise her it doesn’t mean squat unless she is in a position to hide assets. You gain no leverage, and just get tortured more.

You just can’t let her push you around and make sure she knows you mean business

waitedwaytoolong - I keep re-reading your post. Immediately after d-day, in my head, the only option for me was to R. As the months have passed, I have learned I will be just fine if I have to go through life without her. I think I want to give reconciliation a shot. I also have been reading your posts through the months (awesome by the way) and learned that you and your xWW tried several years at R. You just couldn't continue on(I can certainly understand). I ask myself if that will be me in 5 years. I am literally staring at an opportunity to start fresh and no one would blame me. I also don't want to throw away 24 years of marriage, although WW didn't have any problem doing that. I am definitely going to keep working through your shock and awe suggestion.

NTV - I thought the whoopie cushion might be too much for you to give up. Can I borrow your fart gun?